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Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando (Read 2769 times)

Offline hwangs

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Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
« on: September 04, 2007, 03:21:31 AM »
This question has probably been asked before, but I didn't want to look through the whole forum to find it... haha. My hands aren't small (I could reach 10ths comfortably) but not that big either.

Anyone have suggestions of practicing this glissandi??

piano sheet music of Sonata 21 (Waldstein)


Offline pianistimo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 08:26:56 PM »
i just play it as a run and not a glissando.  have to look at the score - but wouldn't it be difficult if there are accidentals involved?  i've never worked this with a teacher- so perhaps i am off - but i don't recall trying to play it as a glissando.  why would one want to play it so very very fast anyways?  i like to hear the notes. 

Offline gruffalo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 08:36:46 PM »
they are C major runs, so there wouldnt be any accidentals. as for what to do, i have no idea.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 08:49:31 PM »
yes. at the end of the first movement (mm282-283) - and parts of the third (m168, 172, 337, 341) - you have these thirty second runs in C - so that's easy.

but, sometimes people try to do it the same way at measures465 thru 474 and then suddenly play scalularly where the F#'s come in.  i just play it all as i would runs.  t'would be harder to play them glissandos, imo, evenly and together.   but, maybe with practice?

also, in measure 468 you have a two note chord.  this kinda defeats any sort of two-handed glissando anyways (unless you leave the two notes out).

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 08:55:55 PM »
is there a technique for double note (one-handed) glissando that won't tear the skin off your fingers?  bend thumb - use nail and drag pinky?

Offline iumonito

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 09:37:30 PM »
They are easier in a lighter and shallower piano.  The problem with these is not really to do glissando in octave, which can be found elsewhere in the literature (Brahms paganini variations, Beethoven first concerto and Hummel's I think Op. 89 concerto (may be 85) come to mind first).  The detail here is that they are kind of slow for a glissando, and followed by fingered scales.

Let me do some research and ask my teacher, as brushing up my Beethoven sonatas is one of the projects for 2008.  Might as well start now.  I suspect part of the technique must be to shape the thing so thatthere is enough weight as you go sideways, but who knows?  You definitely don't want to get stuck in any one key.
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Offline hwangs

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 03:54:13 AM »
Thank you for the reply!!

I did consider doing runs, but it just doesn't sound the same (even with damper pedal). I did realize that it is difficult to do a glissando because it is slower-- esp. my pinky gets caught pretty easily unless I drag it.

Maybe the bent thumb and drag pinky is a good idea, because I remember my friend showed me his hand from the glissando and ripped his skin pretty badly...

Offline classical pianist

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 08:20:20 AM »

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 04:12:56 PM »
that looks pretty good to me.  thanks classical pianist!  i'm going to write that in my book!  i used to do 51 all the way down - but it sounded kinda 'bumpy.'

Offline dnephi

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #9 on: September 06, 2007, 01:05:27 AM »
There are only 2 movements in the Op. 53 Sonata.  The Introduzione is part of the second movement.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #10 on: September 06, 2007, 01:16:30 AM »
technically, you are correct.  however, isn't the middle movement the 'introduzione' in 6/8 rather than 4/4.  so, one must make it sound like a different movement even if one doesn't stop.  but, oh well- i know what you mean.  seriously, if one analyzes it - wouldn't there be a second and third movement - or do you only technically consider that unless there is a pause and rest inbetween.

you bring up a good point.  now i will not sleep tonight.  why?  why does it matter?  but it does matter.

Offline quantum

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #11 on: September 10, 2007, 03:54:11 AM »
I'd play it with the thumb bent using the nail, and 4 5 trailing on the top notes.  The think about slower glissandi is you have to be more aware about the lateral movement of the arm because this is what will mostly dictate evenness.  Try practicing slow single note glissandi, do the same problems occur with a bumpy feel as the double notes? 

Also good to give shape to the glissandi.  The first and last notes being the frame, the notes inside the picture.  It helps to define the outer notes.  You really don't need to dig into the keys much for the inner notes, if your outer notes are defined because it will still appear as the glissandi form. 
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Offline pianistimo

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 12:48:00 AM »
wow. thanks quantum.  i'll try both ways.  even though i didn't ask the question - it brings pause for thought of different ways to approach this.  i never really thought about alternating the fourth and fifth finger in a semi-glissando.

Offline quantum

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 05:05:35 AM »
Your welcome.   The reason I sometimes like using 45 on top is because it gives balance with the thumb which is thicker compared to the 5th finger alone.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline demented cow

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 04:18:50 PM »
There are only 2 movements in the Op. 53 Sonata.  The Introduzione is part of the second movement.

I heard that an Australian pianist called Micheal Brimer did a radio performance of the Waldstein in which he put the Introduzioni at the beginning of the whole sonata and used the Andante Favouri as a 2nd movt for the sonata. Maybe that was a worthwhile experiment, although I don't know if it could work. Even if Beethoven did originally write the Andante as the slow movt for the Waldstein, it seems like recycled early period, and hardly shows the cutting edge genius of the Introduzione.

Offline m

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 04:30:43 PM »
Even if Beethoven did originally write the Andante as the slow movt for the Waldstein...


I am rather glad Beethoven took out this gorgeous Andante out the Sonata.... it gives opportunity to play it as a separate piece.  ;)

In any case, conceptually it was out of place in the Sonata as a whole.
I never heard the Introduction. Is there a score?

Offline demented cow

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Re: Waldstein 3rd mvt -- Glissando
«Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 04:32:45 PM »
Another point: Horowitz (and, I read Backhaus) played staccato octaves instead of glissandos, presumably intending to sell the tempo drop as rubato. In Horowitz' case, I think it sounds almost legit, and maybe it would be ok to somebody who hasn't heard the sonata before.