How to deal with irate mom when dumping lazy student?

[joyfulmusic]

Could you all tell me how you handle getting rid of a student with any kind of diplomacy?  I tried the gee I'm sorry my schedule is full route and have to call back a very upset mother.

[thalberg]

Hmmm....okay, the full schedule thing didn't work.

Some other ideas:

Nice :  I think I've done all I can for your child and it's time for him/her to move on.  I don't think he/she could benefit from me any further.

Less nice: Or....your child simply has not practiced/listened to my instructions and I don't think these lessons are worth your money any longer.

Mean: Your child has not taken my teaching as he/she should, and I don't want to waste my expertise on children who will not benefit from it.

Apologetic:  I don't think I've been successful with your child, and I'm really sorry.

Whatever you say, just remember this BASIC HUMAN RIGHT:  Every human has the right to say no to something they don't want.

Just because the mother is angry doesn't make her right, and it doesn't make her entitled to win.  In the end, if you stand your ground, it really doesn't matter how you handle it--just make sure your "no" gets through.

[joyfulmusic]

  Thanks I needed that.

[joyfulmusic]

  So i spoke with the mother and totally didn't say no.  sigh.  I agreed to meet with the mother and daughter (mind you the daughter is 16) and discuss all the things she didn't do, which the mother claims "not to have realized".  Then maybe we will come up with a contract for her to sign.  Mother asked me to give her one more try.  Okay, so I said yes.  I have no time at all so I agreed to a Saturday lesson even which is my day off.  I'll think I'll call my therapist now.
I am going to demand so much from this child you can't even imagine.  No cancelled lessons.  No excuses.  no I'm too busy.  We'll see...  I hope she shapes up for her sake.  This girl has a truckload of talent.  She doesn't have any discipline, so that's my job to teacher her?  Wish me luck.  *

[counterpoint]

What a well-known situation 

A mother with a strong will and a teenager who isn't able to defend against it...

A dreadful situation for all parts

[matterintospirit]

So i spoke with the mother and totally didn't say no.  sigh.  I agreed to meet with the mother and daughter (mind you the daughter is 16) and discuss all the things she didn't do, which the mother claims "not to have realized".  Then maybe we will come up with a contract for her to sign.  Mother asked me to give her one more try.  Okay, so I said yes.  I have no time at all so I agreed to a Saturday lesson even which is my day off.  I'll think I'll call my therapist now.
I am going to demand so much from this child you can't even imagine.  No cancelled lessons.  No excuses.  no I'm too busy.  We'll see...  I hope she shapes up for her sake.  This girl has a truckload of talent.  She doesn't have any discipline, so that's my job to teacher her?  Wish me luck.  *

just say no, if you don't want to deal with situation. you weren't born into the world signing a contract to teach wonderful little 'whoever." "Irate" is not an appropriate emotion on the part of the Mother ---bad sign! I turned down a child student after a series of lessons. the parents were basically raising this horribly spoiled, power mad, truely crazy child that made "Damien" from the "Omen" look like he was on training wheels. I beleive the parents were "heroin" addicts---just had that feeling. Anyway, after mother pleading, nicely (ychhh!), I took the kid back. OK for a few lessons, then reverted to head games. so i ended it, and the parents practically stalked me for a year. Called me a year later and claimed I owed them money! guess they were short for their fix!

[matterintospirit]

Speaking of which. I've observed a disturbing pattern of behavior among parents and their children, a pattern that seems to have gotten increasingly worse over the years. Since I have been teaching since I was 16, I've taught hundreds and hundreds maybe thousands? of kids over the years. what I notice is an ever increasing philosophy of setting no limits, socially, for the child. Any "limits" are seen as squelching "self-expression", and constitutes almost "abuse". Au contraire, a child who has not learned the appropriate "limits", is a crazy and unhappy child, a terror unleashed on society, my main concern being, unleashed on  me. I even see toddlers striking their parents to test them (every 1-2 year old tries this out sooner or later) and the parents just get embarrased, are overwhelmed, feel helpless, don't know what to do . When my son was about 1 years old, he tried poking us to see if it hurt (and it sure did!) and he got a crack back(mild but equal to the pain he inflicted.) bitter tears---never happened again. Today, hitting back would be considered child abuse The situation is getting out of hand. I don't know how it is in other countries since this is an international forum, but this philosophy of child rearing, anything goes, is as far as i'm concerned, rampant here in the States---a regular national crisis. I'm seeing a bit less of parents and their children who are mentally capable to "weather" piano lessons in any significant way. Of course there are many exceptions, but I do see a significantly increasing pattern which I find alarming.

[counterpoint]

I've observed a disturbing pattern of behavior among parents and their children, a pattern that seems to have gotten increasingly worse over the years. Since I have been teaching since I was 16, I've taught hundreds and hundreds maybe thousands? of kids over the years. what I notice is an ever increasing philosophy of setting no limits, socially, for the child.

I do not agree with your view, that a lack of limits is the problem. Just in contrary: there is a serious lack of awareness of the kids' personality, interests, wishes and needs. So parents just project their own wishes and needs in their children - and the kids rebel against this unreasonable demand. Self-defense is a fundamental right!

[thalberg]

So i spoke with the mother and totally didn't say no.  sigh.  I agreed to meet with the mother and daughter (mind you the daughter is 16) and discuss all the things she didn't do, which the mother claims "not to have realized".  Then maybe we will come up with a contract for her to sign.  Mother asked me to give her one more try.  Okay, so I said yes.  I have no time at all so I agreed to a Saturday lesson even which is my day off.  I'll think I'll call my therapist now.
I am going to demand so much from this child you can't even imagine.  No cancelled lessons.  No excuses.  no I'm too busy.  We'll see...  I hope she shapes up for her sake.  This girl has a truckload of talent.  She doesn't have any discipline, so that's my job to teacher her?  Wish me luck.  *

I feel bad for you because I have caved in many times just like you did.  And your day off..

You have my sincerest sympathy because this woman got you to surrender your right to say no.  It has happened to me--see it as a lesson.

Meanwhile, I suggest rehearsing the art of saying "no" to someone in an immovable yet sweet way. 

Power struggles go like this:  The person usually tries anger first, because others are so quick to be frightened, intimidated, and to take responsibility for anger.  To demonstrate:  Try this--get angry with someone when it's not their fault--they will totally take on all the fault and apologize even though they did nothing wrong!!  Then you'll see what it's like to be the one wielding the power.  (You probably won't like it, I don't)

If this does not work, the person will revert to either playing your sympathies, or else your sense of fairness.  In this case, she chose both--if they "didn't realize" what was happening, then your refusing to take her back makes her a victim and makes you unjust.  You got guilt-tripped.

It's common for people to switch between these tactics even in the same argument.  You are easily manipulated because you're a good person.  I hope you learn soon to have the self-esteem required to stand up to those who will play your feelings like a violin.

The fact that the mother was irate to begin with shows that power is a primary motivator for her--people who desire power have anger problems.  They must get their way. 

If you had refused to take the daughter, and she had called you in a state of non-anger, then I'd interpret her differently.

[joyfulmusic]

I hear you loud and clear.  I really only have agreed to get together (she said she would pay me for my time) and discuss all that has gone on with her daughter.  I said, her daughter was going to have to own up to an awareness that she had not followed through at all last year.  She was cheeky enough to say.  "I hope you have learned something".  I emphatically told I had not learned anything.  My only mistake was continuing to finish the school year with this child last year.  She mentioned that, "Wow, I have so recommended you highly to everyone." Implying that she would no longer be able to do that.  I informed her that in view of all that I had given her daughter already, I feel absolutely wonderful about what I have done for her.  I am so old enough to know better.  I got played.  She insisted that I should have called her daughter earlier to put her on my schedule.  I said, no, you need to let me know when you want lessons and put this time first.  But I babble.  I have so many respectful, inspiring, loving, intelligent families that I work with.  Just hate to get "gotten". 

[matterintospirit]

I do not agree with your view, that a lack of limits is the problem. Just in contrary: there is a serious lack of awareness of the kids' personality, interests, wishes and needs. So parents just project their own wishes and needs in their children - and the kids rebel against this unreasonable demand. Self-defense is a fundamental right!

 Well I see the valid point that you are making, and i think it goes hand and hand with what i am saying. I am talking about a "spoiled brat" syndrome. You are talking about a lack of interest, understanding, respect for a child's individuality---their rights. To me, that is what lies underneath "spoiling." It's easier to give the child and allow the child everything they want. To deal with a child's frustration(often quite intense),  is to difficult, too painful, too much work. I see "spoiling" as a cop out and the ultimate in lack of interest. Children are individual beings sepertate from there parents for sure, and they need to be appreciated as such, but they also need direction form their hopefully more experienced parent(s) in order to learn how to succeed in this world, take "succeed" in the total general, not just career.

[thalberg]

I hear you loud and clear.  I really only have agreed to get together (she said she would pay me for my time) and discuss all that has gone on with her daughter.  I said, her daughter was going to have to own up to an awareness that she had not followed through at all last year.  She was cheeky enough to say.  "I hope you have learned something".  I emphatically told I had not learned anything.  My only mistake was continuing to finish the school year with this child last year.  She mentioned that, "Wow, I have so recommended you highly to everyone." Implying that she would no longer be able to do that.  I informed her that in view of all that I had given her daughter already, I feel absolutely wonderful about what I have done for her.  I am so old enough to know better.  I got played.  She insisted that I should have called her daughter earlier to put her on my schedule.  I said, no, you need to let me know when you want lessons and put this time first.  But I babble.  I have so many respectful, inspiring, loving, intelligent families that I work with.  Just hate to get "gotten". 

"I hope you have learned something."

How incredibly condescending to say that to a teacher!!!  She thinks in a heirarchical fashion, and seeks to put you below herself.  This is contempt.

"Wow, I have recommended you so highly to everyone."

This is manipulation.  She played on you with anger first, then with sympathy ("we were unaware") and now she is using fear--that you will lose recommendations.  It's also condescending because she's threatening to withdraw favors that she assumes you need from her.

Joyfulmusic, you are dealing with a TOXIC person.  This woman is TOXIC.  You will NEVER win with her.  Not ever.  Normalcy is impossible.  Mutual understanding is impossible.  Peaceful resolution is impossible.

Figure out a million different ways to say "NO" and USE THEM ALL.  DO NOT let this person into your studio again.  You don't need her, you will survive without her.  She will use her "kaleidoscope" tactic on you--first using one emotion, then another.  First one argument, then another.  Standing up to her will be difficult.  It will not end peacefully unless you give in.  Don't give in.  Let her be mad.  Let her threaten you.  Let her play your sympathy.  Let her flatter you.  Who knows what she'll try.  Be okay with a conflict.  Be sweet, be nice, but be firm.  It will drive her nuts, but just stay calm and smile.  If you want, just take it all on yourself--"I have not been successful with your child so far, and I believe I cannot be in the future.  I simply cannot be successful with your child.  I'm really sorry.  She'll be better off elsewhere.  I have to do what I believe is right.  I'm sorry you don't see it that way.  Once you find another teacher, everything will work out for you."  Etc Etc.

Protect yourself.  You do not need this headache!!!!!!

[matterintospirit]

"I hope you have learned something."

How incredibly condescending to say that to a teacher!!!  She thinks in a heirarchical fashion, and seeks to put you below herself.  This is contempt.

"Wow, I have recommended you so highly to everyone."

This is manipulation.  She played on you with anger first, then with sympathy ("we were unaware") and now she is using fear--that you will lose recommendations.  It's also condescending because she's threatening to withdraw favors that she assumes you need from her.

Joyfulmusic, you are dealing with a TOXIC person.  This woman is TOXIC.  You will NEVER win with her.  Not ever.  Normalcy is impossible.  Mutual understanding is impossible.  Peaceful resolution is impossible.

Figure out a million different ways to say "NO" and USE THEM ALL.  DO NOT let this person into your studio again.  You don't need her, you will survive without her.  She will use her "kaleidoscope" tactic on you--first using one emotion, then another.  First one argument, then another.  Standing up to her will be difficult.  It will not end peacefully unless you give in.  Don't give in.  Let her be mad.  Let her threaten you.  Be okay with a conflict.  Be sweet, be nice, but be firm.  It will drive her nuts, but just stay calm and smile.  If you want, just take it all on yourself--"I have not been successful with your child so far, and I believe I cannot be in the future.  I simply cannot be successful with your child.  I'm really sorry.  She'll be better off elsewhere.  I have to do what I believe is right.  I'm sorry you don't see it that way.  Once you find another teacher, everything will work out for you."  Etc Etc.

Protect yourself.  You do not need this headache!!!!!!

You are dealing with a crazy person -----DUMP HER

[ilikepie]

Waitaminute... if she recommends you to other people with her daughter as the standard, won't that be bad advertising? Heck, she probably drove off tons of people with her "recommendations" when they saw her play...

[anna_crusis]

If someone has talent then you should stick with them because they can surprise you and you can actually learn a lot.

My first ever student was the most intolerably selfish, moody and contrary girl you could ever wish not to meet. She clearly had ability but was severely maladjusted. I stuck with her for about six months before I got to the point where I was ready to throttle her. I then implied to the mother at the end of one particularly awful day that her time was running out, so to speak. I was ready to jump ship at the soonest opportunity.

Well, I'm not sure what happened that evening but clearly mother and daughter had words because the following week she was far more co-operative and stayed that way for weeks afterwards.

Within a month or so I finally started to get through to her and the situation turned around completely. She began to look forward to lessons, practiced of her own free will and eventually became someone I really cared about. I ended up teaching her for five years, almost without break.

The important thing is that not only was that a life changing experience for her, it was for me too. After going through that, teaching 'normal' kids seemed like plain sailing. It was a trial by fire and what I learnt from that experience made me a vastly better teacher. I've rarely had problems with children ever since.

You don't learn anything at all from teaching co-operative students. Anyone can teach a polite, eager to please child - no special personal skills are required. But if you consider yourself to be a good teacher, you should be able to teach anyone. And even if it seems unpleasant or impossible, you owe it to the child to give it your absolute best shot if you see potential there.

In my experience, a reasoned but straight-to-the-point discussion with parent and child is the starting point for dealing with difficult students. Both child and parent feel embarassed, which becomes a motivating force in improving behaviour. You've then got to get through to the student, and find out what motivates them and what they like.

For the ultimate inspiration in dealing with children with behavioural problems, read Ann Sullivan's moving blow-by-blow account of how she dealt with the infant Helen Keller:

https://www.amazon.com/Story-My-Life-Unabridged-Centennial/dp/0393057445/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-7672824-7340646?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189423764&sr=1-1

[joyfulmusic]

"In my experience, a reasoned but straight-to-the-point discussion with parent and child is the starting point for dealing with difficult students. Both child and parent feel embarassed, which becomes a motivating force in improving behaviour. You've then got to get through to the student, and find out what motivates them and what they like."

This is exactly what ended up happening.  The student, called me and said she was sooooooo embarrassed at what she put me through and apologized.  Then she and the mother came over and we spent an hour going over all the things she needs to do if she wants a career as a musician/performer.  Her mom said that as a result of my calling this student on everything that she had done. they had done but nothing talk for twelve hours in a deeper way than they had in a long time... brought tears to my eyes actually.  I said to her, "this day could change the rest of your life".  She is going to write a contract up for herself to include how many hours a week she will practice and when.  She has to work on composition, attend live performance, perform at least once a month, make a notebook of her entire repertoire (I wish my teachers had made me do this.  i lost all my music in a fire and have yet to rediscover everything I played), come up with money to produce a demo, make contact with other musicians and play along with them, etc.  This is the fall she needs to apply to schools.   One school she is considering has an audition November 1st.  Oh man...
Well, here we go.  I so appreciate everyone's input on this. 

[thalberg]

"In my experience, a reasoned but straight-to-the-point discussion with parent and child is the starting point for dealing with difficult students. Both child and parent feel embarassed, which becomes a motivating force in improving behaviour. You've then got to get through to the student, and find out what motivates them and what they like."

This is exactly what ended up happening.  The student, called me and said she was sooooooo embarrassed at what she put me through and apologized.  Then she and the mother came over and we spent an hour going over all the things she needs to do if she wants a career as a musician/performer.  Her mom said that as a result of my calling this student on everything that she had done. they had done but nothing talk for twelve hours in a deeper way than they had in a long time... brought tears to my eyes actually.  I said to her, "this day could change the rest of your life".  She is going to write a contract up for herself to include how many hours a week she will practice and when.  She has to work on composition, attend live performance, perform at least once a month, make a notebook of her entire repertoire (I wish my teachers had made me do this.  i lost all my music in a fire and have yet to rediscover everything I played), come up with money to produce a demo, make contact with other musicians and play along with them, etc.  This is the fall she needs to apply to schools.   One school she is considering has an audition November 1st.  Oh man...
Well, here we go.  I so appreciate everyone's input on this. 

Wow...that turned out better than I could have imagined.  Sorry for being so negative and telling you to dump her!! I guess I learned something here too.

[joyfulmusic]

Wow...that turned out better than I could have imagined.  Sorry for being so negative and telling you to dump her!! I guess I learned something here too.

Truth is, your messages helped to empower me to follow through better with my own truth.  It took guts for me to tell this mother what I thought so boldly.  This board is great.  Makes you feel not so alone with...er ah... stuff. 

[mattgreenecomposer]

Tell her you have a rash thats really contagious....

[thalberg]

Truth is, your messages helped to empower me to follow through better with my own truth.  It took guts for me to tell this mother what I thought so boldly.  This board is great.  Makes you feel not so alone with...er ah... stuff. 

Great.  I'm so glad.

My last post sounded like I was insane....I guess I've just had some up-close and intense experience with certain types of people, so I get a little passionate about setting boundaries with them.  I need to get over that....hehe.....