Must have Liszt recordings?

[webern78]

Anybody willing to suggest several desert island recordings for somebody who just detests the piano music of Liszt? After various attempts, i think i'm going to write this composer off my collection, but i wanted to keep a couple of recordings, just because of his historical significance.

So far i have a disc of his Faust symphony by Bernstein, plus two versions of his sonata and assorted late pieces, one by Krystian Zimerman and the other by Vladimir Feltsman.

Anything else i should consider buying?

[ultraviolet]

I recommend keeping anything you paid money for.

[thalberg]

Well, I personally was going to recommend Zimmerman's rendition of the B minor Sonata.  But you already have that.

I have Bolet playing a bunch of stuff and I hate it.  (Sorry Bolet fans.)

Go to the audition room and download etudes' rendition of campanella--that's a desert island recording I think.

Also, Liszt's Schubert transcriptions are WONDERFUL--I adore Gretchen am Spinnrade and Erlkonig.  If you buy Erlkonig, search online for a nice poster to go with it.  They have some beauties.

[ilikepie]

Finally someone else who doesn't like Liszt!!  I make one silly comment about him and everyone nominates me for stupidest person in the world, but now here we have someone else who feels as I do.  Hoooorrraayyy!

If only this person also hated Bosendorfers.  Ooohh.. could you imagine Liszt played on a Bosendorfer?  Now I'm going to have nightmares.

Calling his life's work "a work of a rip-off artist" does not equate a silly comment... I don't like some composers but I would never ever say the same things you said about Liszt...

[mikey6]

Watts' Pag studies.  Cziffra's TE's and Rhapsodies.  Zims or Richter's Concertos.
If you don't like Liszt, it's hard to advise - are they any works you like? the later wierd arse stuff? the more poetic or the virtuosic?

[thalberg]

Watts' Pag studies.  Cziffra's TE's and Rhapsodies.  Zims or Richter's Concertos.
If you don't like Liszt, it's hard to advise - are they any works you like? the later wierd arse stuff? the more poetic or the virtuosic?

Nuages Gris is really cool because he uses Augmented triads all moving with chromatic voice leading.  It's innovative and colorful, I think.  Very worthwhile.

[ultraviolet]

 

Try perhaps his amazing Annes de Pelerinage.

[ultraviolet]

Oh, and don't forget to turn the volume way up because theyr'e so deeply musical.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Try the Sergio Fiorentino "Contemplative Liszt" disc. I doubt it will be what you expect of him..

[mephisto]

I have always loved Andsnes' Liszt CD. Also Berman's Années de Pélerinage.

[webern78]

Watts' Pag studies.  Cziffra's TE's and Rhapsodies.  Zims or Richter's Concertos.
If you don't like Liszt, it's hard to advise - are they any works you like? the later wierd arse stuff? the more poetic or the virtuosic?

One piece i really liked was St Francois D'assise (contained in the Feltsman disc). I liked the brooding, ethereal mood, and the fact he never wanders into aimlessness, like in the adagio of his sonata.

To be frank, i'm not sure i have a 'preference', i just can't stand the false and arbitrary element of his music. Like ultraviolet said, he seemed to just follow what felt good under his fingers rather then compose with his head (and heart).

[thalberg]

LOL I can't believe someone is agreeing with ultraviolet.  That cracks me up.

[webern78]

Try the Sergio Fiorentino "Contemplative Liszt" disc. I doubt it will be what you expect of him..

This sounds promising, but i couldn't find the disc you mention, only one containing the obligatory piano sonata. Is it out of print?

[mephisto]

Well, Webern said he "detests" it and you aren't having a go at him.  Lots of really intelligent scholars hate Liszt, except for the B minor sonata.  And Martha Argerich doens't even like the B minor sonata that much.  Good composers write from their hearts and from what they hear.  Liszt wrote only from his hands whatever felt good to play and fit under his fingers.  That's why all his music sounds impressive but meaningless.  It's there only for the physical gratification of the performer, who cares about the audience except to impress them with speed and volume and a few cheesy adagio cliches.  To be honest, I regret saying he was a rip-off artist, because I think if he would have done some ripping off it would have improved his work.  Besides, what would you be willing to say about composers you don't like?  A bunch of indirect implications that no one would pay attention to?  Probably.  That's the price you pay for being moderate in everything.  See, if I were you, my name would be Ilovepie.  But that's just me.

You can hate Liszt as much as you like, but please try to be sincere. A lot of Liszt's pieces are completly non-virtoustic and wouldn't impress anyone based on pure technic.

[imbetter]

zimermans liszt sonata is the best liszt sonata i've heard so far.

[ultraviolet]

Yes, Zimmerman is solid.  Try Argerich too.

[etudes]

And one more thing, who is the most famous liszt player ever? lang lang.  I rest my case.

ahaha it already showed all your knowledge...since when Lang Lang is the most famous lisztian pianist? how many liszt pieces he actually performed after he get famous?
1.Don Juan
2.Liszt Horowitz 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody
3.6th Hungarian Rhapsody
I wouldnt count liebestraum purely base on what you just said that liszt wrote just for his hand....can that piece wow the audience?


keep your mouth shut and listen some real liszt..Cziffra,Bolet,Duchable,Richter   

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Try the Sergio Fiorentino "Contemplative Liszt" disc. I doubt it will be what you expect of him..

This sounds promising, but i couldn't find the disc you mention, only one containing the obligatory piano sonata. Is it out of print?

https://www.aprrecordings.co.uk/apr2/showentry.php?id=64

[ultraviolet]

Try getting all of Lang Lang's Liszt recordings.  They're scrumptious.

[ilikepie]

I'm sick of talking about Liszt because everyone here defends him like they're  sleeping with him.  I want to talk about some composers that I actually like.

Well, you talk like he bullied you in high school lol.

[dmc]

I'm another one who just hasn't been able to warm up to Liszt (not yet anyway).  I admittedly haven't heard a lot of his work.  But what I have heard just doesn't do it for me so I haven't felt inclined to explore further.  To my ears, it all seems much too harsh & technique-driven.  Not enough feeling or heart.

.02...

[etudes]

Well, Lang Lang is the only one who plays Liszt as it ought to be played, in a manner that is totally profane and shamelessly ostentatious.  The other people you mentioned wasted their time and talent on Liszt.  They were too good for him.

Didn't Liszt study with Czerny or something?  So basically he probably never got away from meaningless exercises in C major.  This numbed his brain for the rest of his life.  I'm sick of talking about Liszt because everyone here defends him like they're  sleeping with him.  I want to talk about some composers that I actually like.

Liszt was a concert pianist by the time he went to Czerny
and by the way czerny was one of beethoven's pupil....
and no...they didnt waste there talent on liszt....in fact they love(d) to play liszt
well...you can just shut up and leave if you dont wanna talk (aka blame,diss) about liszt
I doubt that you hate liszt because you once tried so hard to play his great music and ended up being raped by the scores 

[rachmaninova]

Well, Lang Lang is the only one who plays Liszt as it ought to be played, in a manner that is totally profane and shamelessly ostentatious.  The other people you mentioned wasted their time and talent on Liszt.  They were too good for him.

Ok, I'm not going to be on the Liszt's defenders side, but try to put Lang Lang playing the 3rd year from "Les Anées de Pélérinage" or "Via crucis" or "Harmonies Poetiques et Réligieuses". What would you get? Pure sillyness...
And btw, you can hardly recognize the "La ci darem la mano" theme in Lang Lang's recording of Don Juan. I doubt that Liszt would have wanted the text to not be respected... (Ok, I don't like Lang Lang!)
There were threads where people agreed that a great deal of Liszt is pure technical firework (the works that I don't like either), but they also showed that there is a great deal of deep music and in this 2nd group of works are true gems. 
Please, don't be so radical in your positions. This is not black and white, there is a big gray area. Liszt is not my favourite composer, but I admire his work.

Best regards,
Carla

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Sometimes I think it is easy for people to be get a negative opinion of Liszt, because, yes, it is undeniable that he wrote a lot of flashy trash. I think that aspect of his music has to be put in the context of his life and times - he was of course a virtuoso performer and as such it was expected that he would produce and perform crowd-pleasing music. Almost all the virtuosi of his time did likewise. If you read letters he wrote, I think it is obvious he was acutely aware of the incongruity of these pieces with his desire to be taken seriously as a composer.

Now, if he had not had a career as a virtuoso, aided by the more frivolous music he wrote, he would not have amassed so much wealth, would not have been able to fund Wagner and help countless young musicians, would probably not have been able to give free masterclasses at Weimar, etc. So, I think, we should not read too much into a lot of his earlier music, as in ihis later life, he did the above things for the good of music, which were perhaps a subconscious part-atonement for the musical sins he knew he had committed earlier on.

Of course, there is no reason why anyone should choose to like Liszt's music, but I think it would be wrong to dismiss him  on the basis of some of his more lightweight music.

[rachmaninova]

Sometimes I think it is easy for people to be get a negative opinion of Liszt, because, yes, it is undeniable that he wrote a lot of flashy trash. I think that aspect of his music has to be put in the context of his life and times - he was of course a virtuoso performer and as such it was expected that he would produce and perform crowd-pleasing music. Almost all the virtuosi of his time did likewise. If you read letters he wrote, I think it is obvious he was acutely aware of the incongruity of these pieces with his desire to be taken seriously as a composer.

Now, if he had not had a career as a virtuoso, aided by the more frivolous music he wrote, he would not have amassed so much wealth, would not have been able to fund Wagner and help countless young musicians, would probably not have been able to give free masterclasses at Weimar, etc. So, I think, we should not read too much into a lot of his earlier music, as in ihis later life, he did the above things for the good of music, which were perhaps a subconscious part-atonement for the musical sins he knew he had committed earlier on.

Of course, there is no reason why anyone should choose to like Liszt's music, but I think it would be wrong to dismiss him  on the basis of some of his more lightweight music.

Exactly my point. You couldn't have said it any better!

[rachmaninova]

By the way, that Fiorentino recording must be something quite special. I just love the man, specially playing Scriabin! 

[ultraviolet]

I had a friend once who got his hair cut like Liszt.

[mephisto]

Didn't Liszt study with Czerny or something?  So basically he probably never got away from meaningless exercises in C major.  This numbed his brain for the rest of his life.  I'm sick of talking about Liszt because everyone here defends him like they're  sleeping with him.  I want to talk about some composers that I actually like.

Wich Liszt biography have you read? It is far more complicated than that. Liszt was a true visionary.

[webern78]

Burgmuller.

You mean Norbert? I didn't know there were any piano compositions by him (other then the concerto). I have his String Quartets and they are amazing, particularly the forth one. I usually don't care a lot about obscure names and i think most people just like to pretend to like them to show how 'versatile' their tastes are, but Burgmuller actually took me by surprise.

[mephisto]

I usually don't care a lot about obscure names and i think most people just like to pretend to like them to show how 'versatile' their tastes are,

I strongly doubt that. It reminds me of those silly comments like "you do only like Schoenber and Webern because you want to seam sophisticated".

[cmg]

First bullied by Liszt, now raped?  I've had it.  I refuse to talk about Liszt anymore.

Raped . . .  bullied . . . and don't forget the time he gave you a "wedgie" and short-sheeted you at summer camp!

He even picked my pocket once at Bayreuth.   

[dnephi]

Wow.  Burgmuller is like my fav composer.  His tonic dominant is my favorite chord progression, and the complete absence of chromaticism is good for my bland taste buds.

[webern78]

I strongly doubt that. It reminds me of those silly comments like "you do only like Schoenber and Webern because you want to seam sophisticated".

No, it goes beyond that. I even remember a guy arguing Hummel was a greater composer then Beethoven. I'm not making this up.

Some people are truly convinced rooting for the little guy makes them 'edgy' and 'daring' in their own deluded little world. It's pitiful.

[webern78]

Wow.  Burgmuller is like my fav composer.  His tonic dominant is my favorite chord progression, and the complete absence of chromaticism is good for my bland taste buds.

If Burgmuller had lived as long as Liszt you'd be singing a different tune. What did the latter ever wrote in 1835 that is even remotely comparable to Burgmuller's Opus 14?

[ultraviolet]

 

 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Some people are truly convinced rooting for the little guy makes them 'edgy' and 'daring' in their own deluded little world. It's pitiful.

If Burgmuller had lived as long as Liszt you'd be singing a different tune. What did the latter ever wrote in 1835 that is even remotely comparable to Burgmuller's Opus 14?

 

[webern78]

Have you actually heard the piece in question?

[webern78]

oh.......my.........gosh.........you guys actually thought I was serious.  Kuhlau and Burgmuller are people who wrote sonatinas for 11 year old mediocre piano students.  Maybe I spelt Burgmuller wrong.  I was thinking of the one who wrote those annoying exercises.   I was just trying to bash Liszt one more time.  Suddenly now I don't feel so bad that people here think I'm stupid.

Johann Friedrich Franz is the one who wrote those sonatinas. His brother, Norbert Burgmuller, is a forgotten genius who could have become one of the greats had he lived longer. Schumann wrote that no other early death, aside for Schubert, was as tragic as that of Norbert Burgmuller. Look it up. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

No. I will try to, however.

You don't leave me with the impression that you would be aware of significant (and similarly rare) pieces that Liszt had written by 1835. The prelude omnitonique, Apparitions, Malediction concerto, etc, but it doesn't stop you passing judgement. Perhaps I am wrong and you are intimately familiar with such pieces..

[ultraviolet]

Johann Friedrich Franz is the one who wrote those sonatinas. His brother, Norbert Burgmuller, is a forgotten genius who could have become one of the greats had he lived longer. Schumann wrote that no other early death, aside for Schubert, was as tragic as that of Norbert Burgmuller. Look it up.

Oooh......Suddenly I want to look this up.  Sounds exciting.  I bet it's good music.  Call me crazy, but I sort of like tragic deaths because it makes you wonder what they would have done.  We should start a thread on tragic deaths.

(notice I am not talking about Liszt )

[webern78]

You don't leave me with the impression that you would be aware of significant (and similarly rare) pieces that Liszt had written by 1835. The prelude omnitonique, Apparitions, Malediction concerto, etc, but it doesn't stop you passing judgement. Perhaps I am wrong and you are intimately familiar with such pieces..

Not intimately, but i heard them. They seemed standard Liszt fair to me, but then again, i don't think too highly of his later pieces as well, so.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I'm quite surprised you would describe them as "standard Liszt fare" - they are harmonically radical for their time. Of course you are perfectly entitled to dislike Liszt; I don't think anyone should be holding that against you.

I'm also rather surprised that you have heard the prelude omnitonique..

[hodi]

i dislike liszt too
i think he is the most overrated composer ever.
a lot of his compositions are just pure show off and very few are worth of musical content (such as the Sonata in B Minor and the Faust Symphony)

[thalberg]

I played the B minor Sonata.  It is FUN FUN FUN to play it, so ultraviolet is right about the physical gratification (ahahhaa ).  I also discovered that for about an hour after practicing that piece, I was able to read at something like double speed.  Crazy.

Musically, the best way I can describe the B minor sonata is to say that it seems diluted.  Like if the musical ideas were a teaspoon of kool aid, and the 39 pages of the score were a gallon of water.  Does that make sense?

I do sort of like the piece, though.  And the harmonic stuff is cool IMO.  Perhaps people who don't like it should try listening to Phillip Glass for 30 minutes to slow their brain down, then listen to the B minor Sonata.  I think they'd like it better that way.

[rachmaninova]

Perhaps people who don't like it should try listening to Phillip Glass for 30 minutes to slow their brain down, then listen to the B minor Sonata.  I think they'd like it better that way.

 
If I do that, I think I'll be amazed even with Franz Burgmuller's sonatinas which people talked before...

[webern78]

I bet it's good music.

As i said, his string quartets are very good, and the last one is a small masterpiece. Wasn't as impressed with his piano concerto or his symphony, but they are still well crafted pieces in the classical tradition. Think of him as a minor version of Schubert.

Another interesting 'early death' from the same era is Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga. He left us three interesting quartets in a strict classical idiom which are a mix between Haydn and Mendelssohn. Wouldn't call them masterpieces but they are also worth investigating. 

[webern78]

I'm quite surprised you would describe them as "standard Liszt fare" - they are harmonically radical for their time.

"Standard fair" as in relation to his over all output. There's no question he was a radical and highly innovative composer. I'm not going to take that away from him, but i think there's a bit more to being a great composer then sheer innovation. Some of the greatest composers of all times were among the most conservative after all. 

[webern78]

Perhaps people who don't like it should try listening to Phillip Glass for 30 minutes to slow their brain down, then listen to the B minor Sonata.  I think they'd like it better that way.

I think everything could potentially become a masterpiece after that experience. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

i think there's a bit more to being a great composer then sheer innovation.

I do completely agree with you on this point.

[etudes]

oh.......my.........gosh.........you guys actually thought I was serious.  Kuhlau and Burgmuller are people who wrote sonatinas for 11 year old mediocre piano students.  Maybe I spelt Burgmuller wrong.  I was thinking of the one who wrote those annoying exercises.   I was just trying to bash Liszt one more time.  Suddenly now I don't feel so bad that people here think I'm stupid.  And Liszt wasn't innovative.  All he did was go to harmonic areas that made no sense, and the sheer strangeness of it made people think he must be smarter than they.  Haydn was truly creative and innovative.  He was isolated out there in the country at the Esterhazy place, which allowed him to be truly original.  Only his originality had purpose, creativity, and humor.  All Mozart did was copy Haydn his whole life, and for some reason he seems to get all the credit while Haydn gets ignored. 
And I never made any of those comments about Schoenberg or anything.  I would never criticize Schoenberg, he was a genius, although he was full of a lot of hot air.  At least he composed from his mind not his fingers.

Okay now I really do refuse to talk about Liszt anymore.   

your posts sound like richard kastle 
i did stop since the last post in this thread...it is quite useless...somewhat like give a diamond to a monkey