wrist vs finger motion

[green]

Bartok 'barentanze' from 10 easy pieces, half note=104-120. Eigth notes using left hand fingers 4321. How would u play this? How would u tell a std to play this? Practice this? And the bonus question, is it finger or wrist motion?

Can apply these questions to any piece with fast repeated notes, scarbo for example, but I have been in argument with another teacher about the barentanze.

[anda]

i never played barentanze, so i can't reply anything directly linked to this work. but generally for repeated notes: i prefer playing them with one or two fingers, never with three or four. but if you want to use four fingers: the position of the hand on the piano has to change (very little) in order to get the fingers on the same key. so, i vote for a subtle move of the wrist, a very small (in fast tempo hardly noticeable) move, just enough to help the fingers get in position over the right key. actually, the wrist has to move even if you play the repeated notes with one finger - generally, keeping the hand in motion lets the fingers play as if they would be playing a normal passage (not repeated notes) in staccato. i find it much more difficult to play with a still wrist and have the fingers do everything.

all the above, imho!

[green]

Actually, it is Bartok who writes to use 4321. Being that Bartok was a virtuoso, and the composer of the music, I take his suggestion. His suggestion in my opinion already implies finger motion, (like a barrel machine gun!). But how to practice that with an understanding of the difference between wrist and finger motion?

Of course there will be motion from the wrist when using the fingers, of course. The problem I have, is that my stds previous teacher told him that this was to be played 'from the wrist'. Now imagine that u removed ur hand, and tryed playing this with only ur wrist. At that tempo it is impossible. 'Wrist motion' as bartok himself says in his piano method written in 1913, is for slower motions, in particular staccato motion. My stds teacher even gave him an exercise to flap his hands around to 'loosen them up'. I told him that this really will have no other effect than to demonstrate that yes u do in fact have a wrist!

I would say that the action of 4321 should be like the fingers 'running' on the keys. Loose wrist, yes, as there will be sypathetic motion. In fact, I would have him do it very slowly at first, starting at the top of the key on 4, slide down, change to 3 (yes the arm is pulling the hand), then with a raising of the wrist (wrist motion), push the hand back up to the top of the key, or rather, let 2, then 1, 'pull' the hand back up.

So there is a circular wrist and forearm motion combined with fingers 'pulling' (like galloping fingers in slow motion). As the speed increases the wrist motion decreases to become a residual motion only.

[green]

Actually, it is Bartok who writes to use 4321. Being that Bartok was a virtuoso, and the composer of the music, I take his suggestion. His suggestion in my opinion already implies finger motion, (like a barrel machine gun!). But how to practice that with an understanding of the difference between wrist and finger motion?

Of course there will be motion from the wrist when using the fingers, of course. The problem I have, is that my stds previous teacher told him that this was to be played 'from the wrist'. Now imagine that u removed ur hand, and tryed playing this with only ur wrist. At that tempo it is impossible. 'Wrist motion' as bartok himself says in his piano method written in 1913, is for slower motions, in particular staccato motion. My stds teacher even gave him an exercise to flap his hands around to 'loosen them up'. I told him that this really will have no other effect than to demonstrate that yes u do in fact have a wrist!

I would say that the action of 4321 should be like the fingers 'running' on the keys. Loose wrist, yes, as there will be sypathetic motion. In fact, I would have him do it very slowly at first, starting at the top of the key on 4, slide down, change to 3 (yes the arm is pulling the hand), then with a raising of the wrist (wrist motion), push the hand back up to the top of the key, or rather, let 2, then 1, 'pull' the hand back up.

So there is a circular wrist and forearm motion combined with fingers 'pulling' (like galloping fingers in slow motion). As the speed increases the wrist motion decreases to become a residual motion only.

Therefore it is finger motion, IMO.