Is there a diminished third?

[mknueven]

Someone asked me today if there is such a thing as a diminished third - and I said no.
Later - I thought - maybe there is.  Wouldn't an augmented forth inverted by a diminshed third?

[mike_lang]

Someone asked me today if there is such a thing as a diminished third - and I said no.
Later - I thought - maybe there is.  Wouldn't an augmented forth inverted by a diminshed third?

I suppose a M2 notated, for example, as C - Ebb, would technically be a diminished third.  I cannot think of an instance of such a circumstance off the top of my head...

[thalberg]

Someone asked me today if there is such a thing as a diminished third - and I said no.
Later - I thought - maybe there is.  Wouldn't an augmented forth inverted by a diminshed third?

Yes, Michael Langois is correct.  C-Ebb is a diminished third.  They do exist and you'll run into them if you play enough music.  I know I have--just can't think where.  I even ran into a diminished fourth once.  Franck Prelude, Chorale, and Fugue.  Funny thing was, it resolved to a minor third, so it sounded like 4-3. 

I have no idea what you mean by inverting an augmented fourth and somehow forming a third.  Augmented fourths invert to form diminished fifths, which is enharmonic (meaning, same notes on the piano either way.)

Two years ago, I argued with a very strange but oddly intelligent member of this forum about the existence of diminished unisons.  Let's not get started on that one.  (They don't exist.)

[mike_lang]

I have no idea what you mean by inverting an augmented fourth and somehow forming a third.  Augmented fourths invert to form diminished fifths, which is enharmonic (meaning, same notes on the piano either way.)

Ah - we come to the answer!  The inversion of an augmented sixth!

[mcgillcomposer]

Ah - we come to the answer!  The inversion of an augmented sixth!

Yep yep...they are pretty common. 

[counterpoint]

Yep yep...they are pretty common. 

Augmented 6th chords are pretty common?
Really?
I only know of diminished 7th chords. If you invert them, you get an augmented second.

[mcgillcomposer]

Augmented 6th chords are pretty common?
Really?
I only know of diminished 7th chords. If you invert them, you get an augmented second.

Yep...

German, Italian, and French 6th chords...all augmented.

[counterpoint]

Yep...

German, Italian, and French 6th chords...all augmented.

Okay, there seem to exist some things in music I never heard of 
But you're right, I found them in the english wikipedia. Very interesting!

[mknueven]

thanks everyone -
I really meant dimished 3rd inverts to augmented 6th.
So easy to invert other things when I'm inverting intervals.....

[indutrial]

You can call notes whatever you want. They have different names primarily for reading purposes or for defining the harmonic role of a note amongst others. Diminished third is a little unusual, because it undermines the whole major-minor defining quality that the idea of a "third" generally transmits. In jazz theory, it's a regular old 9th, unless there's already a flat 9 involved, which is the only way the third could possibly occupy the space normally held by the regular 9. However, at this point, I would doubt the validity of the root note and I would rethink the harmony in terms of an inverted version of something else.

Jazz theory makes this bullcrap easier.

3rd is seen as major or minor
5th is seen as perfect, flat, or sharp
7th is seen as major, dominant, or diminished
after that, there's just 9s, 11s, and 13s (and perhaps their alterations, b9, #9, #11, and b13).

[thalberg]

Okay, there seem to exist some things in music I never heard of 
But you're right, I found them in the english wikipedia. Very interesting!

If you want to see a really obvious one, take a look at Beethoven Op 2 no 3, first movement, transition after the minor theme.

[steve jones]

There are Ger +6 chords in Op2 No1 aswell, if Im not mistaken.

Actually, I struggle to use that chord and NOT think of Beethoven!

SJ

[keypeg]

Hey, I just ran into diminished thirds in my theory book and remembered this thread.  In the creation of whole tone scale there must be one diminished third, (which functions as a major second says the book - of course) so that the final note is the same as the first note, instead of an enharmonic equivalent.  So yes, there is a diminished third.