Dynamic independence of hands and fingers

[comme_le_vent]

One of - if not THE greatest technical challenge in piano playing is complete control of the volume of every single note you strike - especially in chords and double notes to make certain simultanious notes louder or softer.
the most difficult example i have seen of this technique - is in saint-sains' op.52 no2 finger independence etude.
does anyone know this etude?

so any advice on this technique and/or this particular piece?

thanks

[nad]

One of - if not THE greatest technical challenge in piano playing is complete control of the volume of every single note you strike - especially in chords and double notes to make certain simultanious notes louder or softer.

First, you remind me of Charles Rosen  
Second, I don't really agree.

Now, think about it. Think about the physics. When you strike a key faster, the volume will be louder. So if you'd have to play a chord in which there's one note you have to bring out, the finger that will play that note should be in a higher position before striking (I don't know the correct english word for this). Then, when you strike the chord simultaneously, the key played by the finger in the higher position will come out.
You can either concentrate on placing more weight on the finger that has to do that particular note(s) when playing chords legato and you don't have time to position the fingers each time.
Or, you can press (if somebody could give me the correct english word, you're very welcome) the other keys first. But of course not in such an obvious way.
The first method is the easiest.

I would have to say I don't really think about it that way when I have to play with that technique. I just do it. To me it's just plain basic technique.

[comme_le_vent]

when striking a chord you dont press down with your figers do you?
you just hold them in a position and strike it with the motion or your arm/wrist.
please someone clarfiy the exact method or give me a link.

methinks this is one for bernhard, are you out there?

[comme_le_vent]

i believe the correct word for this technique would be - polydynamic playing

[zhiliang]

If i am not wrong, this technique is called voicing.

Right now, i use 3 different ways to achieve this.

1. The Horowitz Way

To accent a melody note within a chord or octave: raise the whole arm with as little muscular effort as possible, until the fingers are between three and five inches above the key. During the up and down movements of the arm, prepare the fingers by placing them in position for the depression of the next group of notes and by holding the finger which is to play the melody-note a trifle lower and firmer than the other fingers which are to depress the remaining, keys of the chord. In first attempting this exercise, there is a feeling of stiffened muscular action. Such a condition is always present in the early stage of mastering this problem and should not cause discouragement. Continued practice will remove this feeling, leaving a relaxed though firm muscular action. Continued development will also remove the necessity for raising the hand so high above the keys.

Without ceasing to retain firm though supple joints at the wrists and knuckles, release all tension from the shoulder muscles, permitting the arm to fall with its full weight upon the predetermined keys, the points of contact being the balls of the fingers.

The finger which is held a trifle lower and much firmer naturally strikes the key a much firmer blow than do the more relaxed fingers which do not overcome the resistance of the key as easily as does the more firmly held finger. The tone produced by the key so depressed is therefore stronger than the others. Thus, it is plainly seen that in striking a chord, in which a single note is to be accented, the effect can be produced by holding the finger which is to play the melody note a trifle lower and much firmer than the fingers which are to play the unaccented notes. The reason for holding the finger a trifle lower is only psychological in effect; in actual practice, it isn't altogether necessary. Experience shows that in the beginning it is almost impossible to get a student to hold one finger more firmly than the others unless he is also permitted to hold it in a somewhat different position from the others. Holding it a little lower does not change the quality or quantity of tone produced and does not affect the playing in any way but it does put the student's mind at greater ease.

There is one more point of vital importance in mastering this problem. In the beginning the super-firmness with which the lowered finger is held will cause a hard tone to be produced. The hardness of tone will disappear with progress in its mastery and freedom of movement in depressing the keys, leaving as a final result a beautiful, sonorous and velvety tone of the desired carrying power.

2. Leaning and Using More Weight

The second way i usually use is by leaning and putting more weight on the particular finger i want to sound the note.

3. Use Of Elbows

The third way is by using my elbows to help me, but this only for certain slower passage. For example the RH, i will turn the elbow inwards towards my body to voice the top note and i will turn my elbows outward to sound the botom note. I will practice slowly using exagerated movement for that but in real playing the movement of the elbow is minimal and just sufficient to achieve that. For the LH, elbow outwards for top note and inwards for bottom note of chord. Of course this method cant be used for sounding the middle notes.

I hope these helps. Any other suggestions or comments?

Zhiliang

[comme_le_vent]

very interesting, thanks

the horowitz article is pretty hard to understand for me, can anyone clarify their experiences with it?

also, you only talk about highlighting one note in a chord, what about voing in this kind of way?

cegc with the right hand
c - forte e-pianissimo g-fortissimo c-mezzo-piano

this is just one example but you get the idea.

is that actually possible?

if so, how?

bernhard is the expert, what have u got to say bernhard?

[newsgroupeuan]

Never done this before but I think he means:

1.      Raise arm/wrist above desired keys slightly
2.      Position fingers
3.      Position fingers which are to play the forte notes lower than others
4.      Press notes
5.      At first u’ll feel stiff,  but that will go  away in time
6.      It works because the fingers which are lower offer more resistance ie.  More force is transmitted to keys

So
1 (Middle - C) low
3 (G) lowest
2 (E) Rather limp
5 (C) Average height and stiffness

[zhiliang]

very interesting, thanks

the horowitz article is pretty hard to understand for me, can anyone clarify their experiences with it?

also, you only talk about highlighting one note in a chord, what about voing in this kind of way?

cegc with the right hand
c - forte e-pianissimo g-fortissimo c-mezzo-piano

this is just one example but you get the idea.

is that actually possible?

if so, how?

bernhard is the expert, what have u got to say bernhard?

Well, i believe its close to impossible to achieve that precise a dynamics for that chord that you mentioned. And dont forget that the whole piece probably have a very long chordal progression and if all attention is to focus on how to achieve that exact dynamics, the whole line that you are trying to bring out may not be clear anymore. And that is only one chord of a whole series of them.

What i feel that its important to bring out or voice the notes that you feel are the more primary or important ones.

For the chord that you mentioned again, if i were to use the Horowitz method, and if i were to use finger 1, 2, 3, 5, for a beginner, i will have to raise my arms above the keyboard and when it comes down, you have to anticipate in advance and position finger 1 for C and finger 3 for G slightly lower than the rest and then go down all together. Remember that the fingers being slightly lower than the rest is not the main point. The main point is putting more weight on the notes you wawnt to highlight out. Lowering the fingers slightly more than the rest only helps you to be able to make them firmer. Gradually after slow practicing, you will be able to control the firmness you strike the key without having to do that.

So i will say that if you fell that the C and the G are more important, voice those 2 out rather than thinking along those lines.

I used to struggle with voicing and have even came up to this forum to seek help on that. Now, after much practice on it during pieces, i am able to do it very comfortably. So start trying those 3 methods i listed above, sometimes incorporating more than one aspect of them together. It will help in the end.

Good luck

Zhiliang

[zhiliang]

So
1 (Middle - C) low
3 (G) lowest
2 (E) Rather limp
5 (C) Average height and stiffness

I really dont know about this. Because what you have mentioned above, you might not get a chord anymore. It might sound like a roll.

Again, main point is not height of fingers raised in preparation for the chord but the firmess of the fingers when they come down to the keys, or the weight you give to each of the note.

Zhiliang

[comme_le_vent]

thanks, this all may seem like elementary stuff, but it is extremely important to know - and unlike nad,i think it isnt quite as easy as it sounds.

does anyone know that saint-saens etude?

[newsgroupeuan]

I really dont know about this. Because what you have mentioned above, you might not get a chord anymore. It might sound like a roll.
Zhiliang

Like I said,  I have never tried this method  before .