capitalism, socialism, communism -define!

[pianistimo]

ok.  here's my definition as taken from a communist.  i think it actually fits!

'socialism is the stage between capitalism and communism.  it builds upon the previous system (capitalism) by nationalizing the 'means of production' (ie corporations, resources, banks, etc) but not by making everyone equal.'

ok.  if this statement is agreed - it would therefore seem rational that the most FREE state of government is to have small business.  if you don't have that - then you are paid wages based on several factors that are legislated (social need, difficulty, amount of schooling required) so not everyone will make the same wage at a job or find the job that they want because of legislated restrictions.  this is a big misconception of the advantage of socialism.  people think that everyone will make the same wage.

he - the communist - goes on to say 'communism is the point where the state withers away.'  he considers 10 years of socialism to lead to this.  in some countries - it has only been one generation (a change of leadership).

another point i would like to say about communism is that there are really no communist states that did not abide by the precepts of marxism where you MUST believe in human evolution.  religion and God are NOT ALLOWED.  why?  because the government would be challenged.  human rights would be challenged.  also, rules are said to change at whim imitating 'evolution.'  God is constant.  what is true in one generation is true in another.

slavery? slavery is the monopolies that are created by widespread corruption of a singular person moving assets to wherever his base of control is most evident.  that is my definition.  we aren't talking here about child-slavery (which is very real today) but does not exist typically in FREE NATIONS.  why ?  because we have laws that do not permit it.  i'm not saying we are perfect.  but, why so much allowance of immoral things by unfree countries.  mail-order brides?  who would allow in their country - the women to be sold?  children to slavery?  who would allow their children to be slaves - in sex industries.  this is where corruption of government leads.  to immorality.  also, to a socialist form of education where children are forced to government schools and forced to be whatever the government needs them for.  the parents are 'helpers' - and not parents.  the rights of parents are nil.

[thalberg]

Define?

Well, you see, with Communism, man exploits man.  With Capitalism, it's the other way around.

(I don't remember who the original person was who said that.)

[counterpoint]

Define?

Well, you see, with Communism, man exploits man.  With Capitalism, it's the other way around.

Very good comment 

[pianistimo]

i agree.  no form of government is best.   but there is better, mid-ground, worst.  can you put them in order.  mine would be:  capitalism with the express purpose of allowing small business, socialism with the express purpose of not taking from the rich to give to those who won't work - but those who NEED (and checking waste), and communism with the express purpose of having a leader who cares deeply for his people, allows freedoms (right to religion as well) within law,  and isn't blabbing all the time.

something else that i thought about is that some compare socialism and communism to religion and Jesus Christ.  what Jesus Christ taught, however, was to give taxes to caesar (whose image was on the coins) and render to God what is God's.  in other words, that people give willingly and from the heart. that means, taxation would be suggested at 10% not 30-40- or up to 60% of one's income - including unexpected fines or ways that governments increase their money.  the system would not be based upon money - but people would be allowed to barter and use other means to keep an economy going without being taxed on it.  also, if people save- that their savings would not be taxed.  retirements.  estates.  all would be rightfully understood to have been money that was earned during working years (and ALREADY taxed).  taxing twice?  all governments today seem to do this.  if they don't - they just take.

according to the bible, if one gave above 10% it would be specifically to the poor, the widow, the homeless, the fatherless.  programs such as these would be voluntary and not cause them to have to go to shelters - but be cared for by the entire community.  that there would be a human element and not a societal category and placement.  to me - it is appalling to have people smushed into one place or another waiting for aid.  shouldn't they have recieved it a lot sooner - so that they are not in the situation at all?  for instance, if a person's house burned down - the entire community help that person?  not to send them off to a government agency?  i suppose one might say - well, that's how socialism works - everyone cares.  but - why so many agencies.  if everyone cares - then they wouldn't have to be told what to do and things mandated.  it would be in their hearts to care. 

ps despite how ranting i can be about socialism - i have noticed that many people that i have met from various countries who are socialist or communist are extremely giving people and have a lot of heart.  i am talking about the government agencies.

the good thing about a utopia view (the kingdom of God) is that the government and church are the same.  generous and not taking as much as giving.  therefore, to give twice would not be necessary.  to be taxed three times would be ludicrous.  federal, state, local - plus church tithes.  the way our governments are set up now - is to basically take away any ability of the normal working person to function in this life and still pay 10% tithe to God.  which is required if you are religious and want to benefit from the laws of God.  we also have school taxes here.  this is the last drop of money in the bucket.

nowdays - certain churches do benefit from the government money.  for instance, catholic schools get the privilege of using local public school buses here.  this is a given.  i'm not complaining so much - because the children are very nice and the schools obviously haven't created any bad vibes in this neighborhood - but isn't it a bit one-sided to ignore the other churches and not give them a school bus?  also, what breaks do some charities get vs. others.  who determines this?  this is the problem for more and more government decisions going socialist.  this is the first indication of favoritism and who is following 'party-line.'

[pianistimo]

lastly - i would like to say that as a christian - i have had to come to a better understanding of what God wants in my finances.  in the bible - they had one nation under God.  they were taxed at 10% and saved also for various holidays and every third year - another 10% went to the poor.  every 7 years a remission of debts (for those in debt), and every 50 years - land was returned to it's original owner.  keeping land in the family it belonged in.  despite how one might become impoverished - they knew they could return to their family place.  God is wayy more fair.

what i was going to say about taxation and tithing now - is that i believe to survive and take care of one's family means to look closely at the intent of the law in the bible.  Jesus said something about tithing mint and cummin and neglecting one's parents or social obligations to keep the church running higher than it should.  the gospel is truly our being and presence in the world - as the priesthood has run amock in most churches and isn't even preaching the word of God.  as i understand it - one should count government agencies such as social security - which now taxed at 7.5 here - as a form of social welfare and that would be considered similar to the biblical tithe of 10% to the poor every three years.  3.9% per year if averaged.  so - if you already pay social security  - that is 15% per year (counting what the employer pays - as self-employed people pay 15%) - minus 3.9% that would normally go to a church if you lived in bible times - that leaves 11.1% overcharge.  that the government is basically wasting this money - because God knows that the 'per person' needs are not 15% percent of the total population or 15% of a person's income.  if we have that high of unemployment - then - the fault returns to the government for WHY everyone cannot make ends meet.  why so much money is going out.  this would make the government responsible to us to tell us why.

the socialists would also have you paying above this amount to increase funding for medicaid which has a shortfall according to the number of people (legal and illegal immigrants.  i am for legal immigration - and wish illegal immigration policies be sped up - but the problem is that to support a health system requires that people are paying into it for a few years.  it's not free).  this will certainly force our country to inane staggering figures that we cannot support.  that is why the UN is for our becoming more bankrupt through government policies.  it will own us financially.  and because we may take money from them - they will control policy.  i'd rather pay for my own health care - thank you!  and, determine which doctors and hospital and the type of care that i want.  socialist medical plans sound good - but it has been found that the hype of 'best possible worlds' is not true when you factor in many that do not pay into the system.  this is robbing.

[pianistimo]

i suppose my mind cannot stop on this subject - because it hits close to home.  i wanted to also say that the 10% committed in the bible to the temple or church was given from the heart.  not something wrested from people as though they had no say as to what the church was doing.  the church is also responsible to it's members financially.  they should all have a say in what happens to the money.  does this happen always.  no.  sometimes the widows are neglected.  terribly.

and for a normal tithe which goes to support the ministry - that can't be negected by the  members.  a pastor should never starve.  or feel that he has to 'do better' - if he is already giving 100%.  i think many members already feel badly - but are squeezed by inept government spending which makes their disposable income less.  members are forced to not get behind on regular bills such as house payments, utilities, car pmts, etc.
now - if the government truly cared about the normal person's finances - they would want them to be able to have some reserve for savings (which help a government, btw) and also for happiness (in terms of having some sort of money for a rainy day or items which inevitably come into the category of need/want for the sake of an entire familY).

as i see it - if there is government reform on financing - it should look at people incomes MINUS 10% tithe to God - and then tax on what is left.  not before tithe.  a government cannot be christian and ignore the tithe of the church.  also, it should consider that families need discretionary funds and that they cannot take every last penny.  and finally - who is responsible to the people to return a year or so of wasted money when a project or program is found out to be fraudulent? or, inequitable.

if you think about all this closely - the government HAD NO RIGHT to abolish the gold standard.  we are all in the dark as to what our paper money means, now.  a five dollar gold coin (which is not all gold, btw) is valued today at around $81.  that should say something.  81 divided by 5 is about $16.   is that how far gone our currency is.  didn't one dollar used to match one dollar worth of gold.  or am i wrong?

ok - this is my simple economics.  if one dollar minus 16 = minus $15.  we are each about 15 million dollars in debt over a lifetime - just by owning dollars.  NOT BY OUR OWN DEBT.  that is on top of what we owe.  laugh if you must.  (i know - this is economics for dummies).  this makes suicide look good - if it weren't for God.  you see - i believe all things go back to God.  everyone does die at some point - and no government is going to be around forever.  when it all goes back to rightful ownership - people will have incentive to work again.

spiritually, money is a mirage.  it can appear in many forms and be very appealing and very seductive.  what if money is actually worth nothing?  what if we understood that money cannot give us eternal life?  only God.  then, we wouldn't even care if our financial situation was dismal.  we would still have hope and joy.  why?  because we know that despite it all - God will bless us now and later.  faith brings trials - but they can be worked out by supernatural means.  and, it gives one a connection to people instead of money.

[pianistimo]

this is in reply to religion and Jesus being like socialism and communism.  now you see they are extremely different.  also, Jesus Christ likened the rich to the poor.  he said it was easier for a poor man to enter his kingdom.  why?  because of giving up all that he had for it.  so - if you are poor right now - socialism isn't going to save you.  the Holy Spirit directed moses to say something about resting only on the sabbath.  if that one day is the only day of rest - then all the others are days of work.  if one works  - they don't rely on government agencies anyways as much as themselves.  also, they take care of their health.  social security isn't really going to be around in a while - so 'socialism' can be turned into a stealing opportunity for government.  or a means to explain that 'life was better then.'  why can't it be better NOW?  because of government waste!  how many projects where wayy more people were employed than necessary to do a job?  it's all coming back to haunt us now.  and who pays.  us.  again. 

as i see it - governments are going to be directly responsible to JEsus Christ for very bad mismanagement.  in agrarian times - people didn't even USE money that much. it was for traders!  not that trade is bad.  it's just that nowdays we think it's a necessity. Jesus shows us that it is not even necessary for happy human life.  it would turn ALL existing human governments into cesspool looking slimepits.  to show how much they attempt to control people with money and arms.

[pianistimo]

i suppose i am so far gone as to debate with myself - but i also see the verse in the bible in matthew 25:27 where Christ reprimands the man with one talent for burying it and says 'then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival i would have received my money back with interest.'

so, i suppose that what Jesus was saying is that He wants us to be fiscally responsible - but how much moreso with the 'fruits' of the Spirit.  love, joy, peace, longsufferring, patience, kindness, goodness....  because nowhere did He say we could 'buy' salvation.  it is a FREE gift.

also, the woman who poured the alabaster vial of very costly perfume on Jesus was reprimanded by the disciples and praised by Christ.  so obviously, he values good deeds over money.  that is a big sign of which government is just.  what do they value.  the good deed of hers was 'for when she poured this perfume upon My body, she did it to prepare Me for burial, truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall also be spoken of in memory to her.'

i understand that to mean that the romans wanted to demean and dehumanize Jesus before they killed him.  spitting, scourging, making him carry something too heavy, and then crucifying him.   before all this pain - He would have some memories to get him through the terrible ordeal.  can you imagine that He smelled this fragrance which reminded Him of God and the Holy Spirit that He was imparted and which gave fragrance to the entire world?! and, that those who walked by him would smell as well as see the beauty of God even in sufferring.  this woman literally poured it on his head and it went from his head to his toes.  it is symbolic of the Holy Spirit which blesses us like a fragrance and oil combined.  making us not just look holy but smell Holy to God.  as an incense or offerring.  but, her deed to Jesus Christ was also symbolic for us.  that was to think ahead - and to relieve other's sufferring.

[pianistimo]

one last thought that proves without a doubt that Jesus Christ was NOT socialist - in our terms.

SOCIAL security - is actually 15% of a self-employed person's income.  why the random choice to penalize self-employed people?  it is not part of a socialistic system.  not 'one of the rules.'  the bible never says that self-employment is bad.  but, in social systems - they cannot 'control' you that way as much.  so - they do it by TAXATION.

if you are employed in this country - you pay 7.5 social security and your employer pays the other 7.5 .  so that means 15% per person on a years wage over a lifetime.  the bible says 10% every third year or 3.9% per year if annualized for social purposes (the poor).

ok.  so if we have 15% - 3.9% = 11.1% is WASTED.  that is the amount the government needs to explain away.  that is in God's own terms.  also, if you pay into a system and then find out that the monies have been mismanaged or will be depleted in a certain number of years - you have paid in vain.  you can't do anything about it.  with God's system - the money is the right percent and spent wisely because there is no extra.  also, the gains from the money go directly (no third fourth and fifth parties involved to be paid) to the person/s who need it.

[thalbergmad]

lastly

Regretfully not, there are pages more of drivel.

Have you really not got anything better to do than to spam this forum?

Thal

[pianistimo]

i have challenged people's ideas of fascism.  you do not like it.

[prongated]

another point i would like to say about communism is that there are really no communist states that did not abide by the precepts of marxism where you MUST believe in human evolution. 

...do you have any idea what Marx actually said/wrote?

In any case, your statement there is contradictory. If indeed as a communist you must believe in evolution, then you must also believe that societies constantly change.

also, rules are said to change at whim imitating 'evolution.' God is constant. what is true in one generation is true in another.

It's quite ironic [or to be harsher, hypocritical?] - you refer to archaeological facts as proof of the truth about the Bible, yet in this instance you are ignorant of history altogether! Even during the times of the Bible, governments and societies change! The dynamics of the society constantly evolve! The balance of power, the economic paradigms, technology...laws and rules adapt to these changes.

[pianistimo]

i'm not talking about societies lack of change or ability to change.  i am talking about the root of law.  communism picks out the root of christianity as though it is evil and communism is good.

as i understand it - we have the russian concept, the chinese concept, and tibetian concept - buddhist concept - basically to take orders.  not to argue with - the SUPREME being.  where does one get off in being 'supreme?'

what about individuality and individual rights?  communism is always despots replaced by more evil despots.  it never evolves 'naturally' to a better form of leadership.  for instance, the han dynasty was supposed to be a quite good one until the next and so forth down to tank driving maniacs. 

i suppose i shouldn't say what i think - but did you know that christianity actually caused the eastern dynasty to formulate some good ideas.

what i mean is that they were used to worshipping the emperor - and then suddenly this emperor says - 'don't worship me.'

[ramseytheii]

i have challenged people's ideas of fascism.  you do not like it.

Since it was my thread that incited the fascism conversation, I can only imagine you are talking about me, and rest assured: you haven't challenged my idea of fascism at all.  In fact, you showed you didn't even know what it was!  And don't respond with political correctness about people having "different" definitions.  I don't believe in political correctness.


Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

something else that i thought about is that some compare socialism and communism to religion and Jesus Christ.  what Jesus Christ taught, however, was to give taxes to caesar (whose image was on the coins) and render to God what is God's.  in other words, that people give willingly and from the heart. that means, taxation would be suggested at 10% not 30-40- or up to 60% of one's income - including unexpected fines or ways that governments increase their money. 

That's not right.  Christ our Saviour taught only to give taxes, and he didn't say anything about giving from the heart - when it comes to taxes.  He said give taxes because money doesn't belong to you.  You are making up numbers at 10% of taxes, there is not a word of that in the Bible.  Please read more carefully and stick to the Holy Scriptures - if there was ever a book of Pianitisimo, it might end up as a runner-up to the Apocrypha, if that. 

Walter Ramsey


 

[prongated]

i'm not talking about societies lack of change or ability to change. i am talking about the root of law. communism picks out the root of christianity as though it is evil and communism is good.

...btw just remember, theocracy is communistic in dynamics...

what about individuality and individual rights? communism is always despots replaced by more evil despots. it never evolves 'naturally' to a better form of leadership. for instance, the han dynasty was supposed to be a quite good one until the next and so forth down to tank driving maniacs.

The same can be said about democratic governments.

That's not right. Chris our Saviour taught only to give taxes, and he didn't say anything about giving from the heart - when it comes to taxes. He said give taxes because money doesn't belong to you. You are making up numbers at 10% of taxes, there is not a word of that in the Bible. Please read more carefully and stick to the Holy Scriptures - if there was ever a book of Pianitisimo, it might end up as a runner-up to the Apocrypha, if that.

Walter Ramsey

Moreover, Christians are also instructed to obey laws that are set by incumbent governments...and no, I think it'd be runner-up to the Book of Mormon...

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings

Pianistimo why don't you do something with your life? I gather you have the entire day to yourself, and you have the privilage of wasting all that time on this forum. You obviously don't work, you obviously spent more time on the forum than on other things. Don't you have children to take care of?

[ahinton]

That's not right.  Chris our Saviour

Chris who? That's not right either, is it? Or have I missed something?

(!!)

Best,

Alistair

[pianolearner]

Communism & Socialism are similar. They are very good economic systems when rescorces are scarce or if a country need to recover from a catastrophic disaster or war. You are not rewarded for Labour. Hence, why someone once said to me, it's a system where people pretend to work while someone pretends to pay them.

Capitalism works well in a country where resources are plentiful. You are rewarded for your labour and it is environment conducive for entrepreneurs.

[prongated]

Capitalism works well in a country where resources are plentiful. You are rewarded for your labour and it is environment conducive for entrepreneurs.

In its purest form where pareto efficiency is achieved, it is a system where capitalists and upper class members of the society thrive while the rest receives subsistence wage - and if you cannot integrate into the system, you are dead.

[ramseytheii]

Chris who? That's not right either, is it? Or have I missed something?

(!!)

Best,

Alistair

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

Don't you have children to take care of?

She only gets to see them during visiting hours.

Thal

[pianistimo]

yes.  i have children. i also, happened to have a 'day off' yesterday.  it was a religious holiday so i decided that because many here don't have time to read the bible and think about it - that i would include you in my thoughts.

some of these thoughts had to do with government.  now, when king david of the bible was in power - he was a sort of 'king/priest.'  i don't even know if in his day he collected taxes at all.  tight communities work together for the common good and there are no layers of bureacracy to waste money.  therefore - if someone was poor, homeless, widow, orphan, fatherless - they would directly get money QUICKLY without any layers of bureacracy. 

today - there are many layers of bureacracy.  that is why things are done slowly.  i'm not saying it's not necessary for a government of our size.  small countries such as israel in the bible weren't involved in commercial traffic and trade to the extent we are.  they were more agrarian and in their trade -most likely used bartering for a significantly larger portion of their business. 

i don't say that taxes weren't to be paid in roman times.  after all, ramseytheii, i quoted Jesus as saying pay to caesar the things that are caesars (TAXES) and unto God the things that are God's.  God's system isn't even BASED on money.

in fact, some of what He gathered from the israelites was called 'firstfruits.'  or the 'first' of the harvest, the 'first' of the young sheep and goats, the 'first' of the fruit of people's bodies.  He said that firstborn sons were special and had blessing because - after all - God was involved to create them.  hannah gave her son samuel to God because she (of very few people) understood that God was to be praised for giving her a son at all. 

people complain today about infertility and don't recognize that if you want to have a child - it's a blessing from God.  pray!  ask God for a child.  it's a lot less money!  not to say that some might need somekind of motivating thing to obtain a better outcome in fertility.  i'm just saying that God also says in the bible to ask for what you want.  who does that today?  we just laugh and think that we deserve or work for all that we have.  we don't.  it's a blessing, too.  it doesn't just 'happen.' 

that is why i believe that no government today is right.  they are all corrupt.  what government does not TAKE family land?  in the bible - all land goes back to the original owner every 50 years!  also, every seven years is a remission of debt.  can you imagine if we instated that into our laws?  that means somebody would be kind enough (which would be the rich) to care for some of the poorer people and not extract huge amounts of interest.

so - i'm just comparing two different systems.  God's and man's.

[thalbergmad]

it was a religious holiday so i decided that because many here don't have time to read the bible and think about it - that i would include you in my thoughts.

Many here don't need to read the Bible as you have posted most of it.

Thal

[prongated]

in the bible - all land goes back to the original owner every 50 years!  also, every seven years is a remission of debt.

...emmm unless King Ahab took it...

some of these thoughts had to do with government. now, when king david of the bible was in power - he was a sort of 'king/priest.' i don't even know if in his day he collected taxes at all.

...he probably did. The other kings did.

so - i'm just comparing two different systems. God's and man's.

...implementing what you call God's in today's society is impossible as an exact replica, unless history is wiped out and everything made back as it were. Proof of the irretrogradability of society and thus the constantly evolving dynamics of society ^^

[pianistimo]

bombs can do that.  also, ice-ages after major floods.  how about tectonics.  indonesia is ripe for another major tectonic shift.  not to mention the big san andreas fault line - which is exposed and open for everyone to see it's not going away.

i think that catastrophic things can happen very quickly.  not that i want them to.  noah didn't want the flood to happen.  but, it did.  he wouldn't have gotten drunk afterwards if it didn't affect him.

of course, we could crash into an oncoming vehicle and die tommorrow, too.  it's all the same.  sort of.

[thalbergmad]

noah didn't want the flood to happen.  but, it did.  he wouldn't have gotten drunk afterwards if it didn't affect him.

Moronic

[pianistimo]

what is moronic about someone who has warned people for 100 years!  it wasn't 5 years and then God says 'oop.  time's up.  flood the world.'  it was an entire generation.  people had time to change or teach their children differently.

it is said, in the bible, that God does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets.  the prophets saw OUR time.  the apostle john saw 'the end of the age.'

[thalbergmad]

what is moronic about someone who has warned people for 100 years!  it wasn't 5 years and then God says 'oop.  time's up.  flood the world.'  it was an entire generation.  people had time to change or teach their children differently.

it is said, in the bible, that God does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets.  the prophets saw OUR time.  the apostle john saw 'the end of the age.'

Oh, i see, we now have been blessed with the great prophet Pianistimo.

God has chosen you to reveal his plans, so you can come and warn us about the end of time and the 2nd coming.

I would be grateful if it wasn't such a load of bollocks.

Thal

[ahinton]

yes.  i have children. i also, happened to have a 'day off' yesterday.  it was a religious holiday

Some of us around here could really do with one of those!

today - there are many layers of bureacracy.  that is why things are done slowly.  i'm not saying it's not necessary for a government of our size.  small countries such as israel in the bible weren't involved in commercial traffic and trade to the extent we are.  they were more agrarian and in their trade -most likely used bartering for a significantly larger portion of their business. 

I'm not defending multi-layered bureaucracy here (or anywhere else) but the very fact that it - and many other concomitant things, survive and develop in the present day is that we have infinitly more complexity of all kinds now, which is why I keep trying to tell you that you canno hope and shouldn't expect to run, or even perceive, the world in which we live as unchanged from Biblical times and therefore to be run and perceived solely in accordance with Biblical texts.

what He gathered from the israelites was called 'firstfruits.'  or the 'first' of the harvest, the 'first' of the young sheep and goats, the 'first' of the fruit of people's bodies.  He said that firstborn sons were special and had blessing because - after all - God was involved to create them.  hannah gave her son samuel to God because she (of very few people) understood that God was to be praised for giving her a son at all.

So God was uninvolved or less involved in anyone's second or subsequent births? No one ever gave their son to God! That's utter nonsense. How would one do such a thing in practice, anyway? God didn't give anyone a son either; you are a parent, so I would have thought you were in possession of considerasbly more practical knowledge of how children are created than a childless person like me would expect to have.

people complain today about infertility and don't recognize that if you want to have a child - it's a blessing from God.  pray!  ask God for a child.  it's a lot less money!

OK - let's do this one by one (not two by two, thanks!). I don't complain about infertility. Children are not blessings from anyone - they are concenved under certain biological conditions of which, again, you surely know more in practical terms than I do. Praying for a child does not create one. Asking God for a child is "a lot less money" than what? IVF courses? Well, yes, I can't argue with that. the only problem is that IVF treatment might result in the conception and eventual birth of a child whereas asking anyone for one (other than an adoption agency, I suppose) will not.

not to say that some might need somekind of motivating thing to obtain a better outcome in fertility.

What exactly do yo mean by that?

i'm just saying that God also says in the bible to ask for what you want.  who does that today?  we just laugh and think that we deserve or work for all that we have.  we don't.  it's a blessing, too.  it doesn't just 'happen.' 

To ask who for what you want?

that is why i believe that no government today is right.  they are all corrupt.

Very probably true to a greater or lesser extent, depending whose particular government you happen to be considering at any given moment.

what government does not TAKE family land?

Most of them don't these days.

in the bible - all land goes back to the original owner every 50 years!

No, not "goes", Susan - "went"!. Biblical times have passed a long time ago, in case you'd momentarily forgotten that...

also, every seven years is a remission of debt.

Sounds almost like the UK inheritance tax law that taxes a gift if the donor dies within seven years of making it!

can you imagine if we instated that into our laws?

No!

that means somebody would be kind enough (which would be the rich) to care for some of the poorer people and not extract huge amounts of interest.

so - i'm just comparing two different systems.  God's and man's.

Man doesn't have just one such system; there are many which vary widely from governmental administation to governmental administration, whereas God doesn't have such a system at all.

Best,

Alistair

[ramseytheii]

i don't say that taxes weren't to be paid in roman times.  after all, ramseytheii, i quoted Jesus as saying pay to caesar the things that are caesars (TAXES) and unto God the things that are God's.  God's system isn't even BASED on money.

You were saying that because Jesus said "render... etc', that means we should give a certain percentage and do it lovingly.  But you misinterpreted the passage; he is saying give your money because it doesn't belong to you.  You can't give what doesn't belong to you "lovingly," you just do it, because it is your duty.  Taxes are in fact to be paid in Roman times, as is evidenced by the Holy Scrit.  If God's system is not based on money, it is not based on property either, no matter what percentage points you invent out of thin air.  Jesus preached to get rid of all your property, probably for the same reason - it doesn't really belong to you.

Walter Ramsey

[Derek]

I love how we're all pianists and we act like we actually know things about these topics. I know I'm guilty of it too. But it's just funny. And I don't care how much any of us has read. we're PIANISTS. Need I stress that again? PIANISTS. We press keys and make sound. It is completely useless. We have absolutely zero practicality in us whatsoever. Why do we think we know ANYTHING about politics or religion or anything else that is more important than vibrating strings?  *waits for indignant reaction from people for whom the word 'joke' lost meaning years ago*

[pianolearner]

I love how we're all pianists and we act like we actually know things about these topics. I know I'm guilty of it too. But it's just funny. And I don't care how much any of us has read. we're PIANISTS. Need I stress that again? PIANISTS. We press keys and make sound. It is completely useless. We have absolutely zero practicality in us whatsoever. Why do we think we know ANYTHING about politics or religion or anything else that is more important than vibrating strings?  *waits for indignant reaction from people for whom the word 'joke' lost meaning years ago*

PRESS keys to make sound 

I didn't expect to learn something about piano's in the 'Anything but Piano' forum 

Thanks Derek!

[counterpoint]

Need I stress that again? PIANISTS. We press keys and make sound. It is completely useless.

So true. Making music does not produce any financial values, except when you make CDs or play in concerts that make profit, which is seldom the case.

So the "use" of musicians for the state is only of propagandistic value. Both in capitalist and communist states 

[pianistimo]

musicians can understand the concept of WASTE just like anyone else.  nobody here is saying 'don't pay your taxes.'  in fact, i have never told anyone that.  but, governments are accountable for waste - but this year the department of defence and homeland security's books were in such disorder that they couldn't be appropriately audited.

do you know why?  because of massive losses.  where did the money go?  firms that stole much of that money did it with the idea that they were also foreign companies outsourced and would not be charged with crimes of doing 3 million dollars worth of work for 6 million and so-forth.

blackwater was found out to be a rather fraudulent company which - if not paid - went around assassinating.  this is finding out (no matter if we are musicians or not) - that our money is being ripped from us at an alarming rate.  should we not complain?

this is what i mean by corruption.  the average person cannot find out if budgets are held to - or not.  and WHERE the money went.  and we should just keep on paying?

[ahinton]

I love how we're all pianists and we act like we actually know things about these topics. I know I'm guilty of it too. But it's just funny. And I don't care how much any of us has read. we're PIANISTS. Need I stress that again? PIANISTS. We press keys and make sound. It is completely useless. We have absolutely zero practicality in us whatsoever. Why do we think we know ANYTHING about politics or religion or anything else that is more important than vibrating strings?  *waits for indignant reaction from people for whom the word 'joke' lost meaning years ago*

Being a pianist doen not necessarily of itself debar anyone from having some - possibly even extensive - knowledge of these matters. That said, however, I'm not even a pianist...

Best,

Alistair

[Derek]

Being a pianist doen not necessarily of itself debar anyone from having some - possibly even extensive - knowledge of these matters. That said, however, I'm not even a pianist...

Best,

Alistair

True, but that doesn't excuse the complete lack of humility of nearly everyone who participates in these discussions on these forums. Perhaps a better question to ask would have been: "Why do so many pianists lack humility?"

[zheer]

: "Why do so many pianists lack humility?"

  What is humility  , no on a serious note, capitalism gives people the chance to gain as much capital as possible, and the chance for people to live in a free society, we should all be pro capitalism.

[counterpoint]

capitalism gives people the chance to gain as much capital as possible

I don't know, which people you know personally that earn "as much money as possible"   

[Derek]

*edit* ahh screw it. I hate these threads, I don't know why I continue to have a sick desire to join in to them. I'm gonna go listen to some music now.

[zheer]

I don't know, which people you know personally that earn "as much money as possible"   

  Well here in London all that one needs to do to understand the desire to gain capital is to switch on the TV,99% of the programs are game shows designed to earn the viewer and the participant money or capital.