Analysis Quandry - Chopin Op28 No 22

[steve jones]

The G minor prelude... makes no sense to me!

I have analysed quite a bit of Chopin. I feel Im getting a sense of understanding with his music - his figuration, his use of dissonance, chromaticism, etc. Usually I can look at his pieces and before too long make some kind of sense out of them.

But Im a little lost with the G minor prelude. Perhaps I am being a bit think and missing something that is very obvious, but Im struggling to find the musical 'logic' of this music. If anyone could help me with this, Id be MOST grateful!

SJ

[counterpoint]

Perhaps it gets clearer, if you change the rhythm of the right hand a bit (not for performance - only for getting the clue when practising  )

Play only two chords per bar in the right hand, the first on beat 1 and the second on beat 4 (4th eighth note).

[steve jones]

Oh, absolutely, yes. I tend to do that with most pieces that I analyse. Sometimes I will program them into the sequence too, and reduce different versions to their basic triads and melodies.

Usually when I analyse Chopin, it is clear which notes are part of the functional harmony and which a melodic. Take the first prelude. While the figuration and certain dissonances (like the cross relations during the development)  make it seem complex, its actually quite simple. Most of the harmony is diatonic except for a tonicizing diminished chord and one altered dominant.

In prelude No 4, we see how Chopin uses chromatic voiceleading with multiple appoggiaturas to create a more ambiguous tonality. Yet if we reduce this to its most high level triads, its way more simple.

However, the logic of prelude No 22 completely eludes me. Yes, it can be reduced harmonically. And the octave doubling can be omitted. We could even invert the parts, putting the melody in the treble (where it might seem more familiar). Yet Im still struggling to track any kind of functional harmonic progression 

Chopin's music can get pretty chromatic, and he does make use of non-functional voiceleading chords quite a lot. But I think that there is virtually always some kind of functional harmonic 'map'.

Any ideas?

SJ

[counterpoint]

Oh, I thought, you had difficulties with playing/hearing the piece.

If you want to make theories about harmonic functions - that's not my terrain 

[steve jones]

Actually, Im learning to play it too and your advice is much appreciated! 

But yes, my original question was regarding an analysis of the piece. Im going to program it into the sequencer and see if I can find any logic to it. Indeed, it is not atonal so there must be something there that Im missing.

Wish me luck! 

SJ

[steve jones]

Ok, Iv looked at the first four bars. It seems that here we have a inversions of the diminished and half diminished chord, with appoggiaturas just to make things even more confusing!

The first chord is a half diminished in third inversion, which changes to a fully diminished chord as the bass moves up, then up a step making it the half diminished again, etc. Right at the end of the fourth bar, Chopin gives us a break by dropping in the tonic in second inversion.

I going to view these as voice leading chords rather than anything functional. The ascending bass gives a sense of progression, through goal orientated voice leading, while the appoggiaturas provide some melodic interest to the right hand figuration.

Still, this must have been pretty way out at the time. The tonality in this piece is 'brittle' at best! This reminds me of the kind of thing Scriabin did.

Cool piece!

SJ

[steve jones]

The next four bars comprise of a series of descending major chords (some with dominant 7ths in the bass... again, non-functional) leading to the same diminished chord that starts the phrase.

This has to be one of the most interesting of Chopin's preludes. Atleast in its approach to tonality. Very forward looking.

SJ

[pianistimo]

steve jones,

from your previous posts -i think you're way ahead of me in being 'up' on theory - but, thought i'd mention that record covers can provide invaluable insights.  west chester had a lot of old records and i'd look inside the covers for ideas about form and function of pieces.  also, there's some polish site i found a couple times for some other people.  i'll try to find it again.  they might have something that chopin said himself about his own piece.  and, i also have cortot's explainations of how to play that prelude.  i'll look at his words tonight and see if he says anything.  is this a project - or just a curiosity for you?

btw, do you teach theory?  i mean at a school?  i try to maintain the theory with piano level (performance) - but it really gets complicated, as you say.  i feel it helps a teacher be confident of their quality of teaching if they CAN explain what's going on.  susan

[ramseytheii]

The first 4 full bars are a well formed sequence, using pretty normal chords within the g minor harmonic scale (ii⁷ in fourth inversion, V⁷, ii^o or vii^o, iv, iv⁷ ii or vii^o again and back to i).  It's not per se an unusual sequence, but I don't disagree with you that it's far out.  I think he gets that feeling with the unusual voicing, melody in the bass octaves with commentary in melodic chords above (I mean the top note of the chords forms a sequential melody), and also with the timing of the bass octaves, always held over to make an unexpected dissonance.

The phrase is long, not ending with the first four bars, but disorienting because of the sudden strange leap of augmented ninth.

I can do more late rif you want, would have to look at the score again.

Hope there is some usable information there,
Walter Ramsey

[steve jones]

The first 4 full bars are a well formed sequence, using pretty normal chords within the g minor harmonic scale (ii⁷ in fourth inversion, V⁷, ii^o or vii^o, iv, iv⁷ ii or vii^o again and back to i).  It's not per se an unusual sequence, but I don't disagree with you that it's far out.  I think he gets that feeling with the unusual voicing, melody in the bass octaves with commentary in melodic chords above (I mean the top note of the chords forms a sequential melody), and also with the timing of the bass octaves, always held over to make an unexpected dissonance.

The phrase is long, not ending with the first four bars, but disorienting because of the sudden strange leap of augmented ninth.

I can do more late rif you want, would have to look at the score again.

Hope there is some usable information there,
Walter Ramsey

Absolutely, yes thanks.

What Im beginning to see in Chopin's figural preludes and etudes is his willingness to put melodic voiceleading ahead of harmonic stability. We see it in his first prelude, where he uses a run of first and second inversion triads, with the diatonic ascent of the bass along with the chromatic ascend in the melody providing the sense of 'direction'.

Another prefect example I guess would be the fourth prelude where he uses chromatic voiceleading to create a sense of progression and direction into some functionally 'illogical' territory (until concluding the phrase with a convincing cadence).

Perhaps its pieces like this that inspire the likes of Liszt and Wagner to extend tonality as they did?

Another story...

The point being, with respects to this piece... Im not sure if a functional analysis is the right way to go. For me, I dont percieve a sense of functionality from the harmony in this opening phrase. To my ears, this opening phrase is disorientating and tonally ambiguous (with a definate 'shift' occuring in the fifth measure... the response I guess to the opening bars).

I feel that the sense of progress is created through the ascent of diminished and half diminished chords during the first four bars, contrasted with the chromatic descent of dominant chords in the following. This seems to give a similar sense of tension and release, as is felt with more functional progressions. Particularly as Chopin uses the tonic (or atleast heavily eludes to it) at the 'height' of the phrase, as if it were almost the point of balance.

Be interested to hear how you perceive this music. Indeed, music is sooo subjective. One man's potarto is another man's potato 

SJ

[steve jones]

steve jones,

from your previous posts -i think you're way ahead of me in being 'up' on theory - but, thought i'd mention that record covers can provide invaluable insights.  west chester had a lot of old records and i'd look inside the covers for ideas about form and function of pieces.  also, there's some polish site i found a couple times for some other people.  i'll try to find it again.  they might have something that chopin said himself about his own piece.  and, i also have cortot's explainations of how to play that prelude.  i'll look at his words tonight and see if he says anything.  is this a project - or just a curiosity for you?

btw, do you teach theory?  i mean at a school?  i try to maintain the theory with piano level (performance) - but it really gets complicated, as you say.  i feel it helps a teacher be confident of their quality of teaching if they CAN explain what's going on.  susan

You know, when buying pop, etc, CD's I rarely check the inlay. But with classic ones they can be really good! So yeah, Id definately check the inlays if I could find the cases. Im a little disorganized at the moment... moving to another country in two weeks!

With respects to teaching...

I do teacher guitar privately. Nothing at school. My interest in theory is purely academic. I guess I may have a touch of OCD, lol. I just feel this need to understand the music Im listening too, why it has the impact that it does, etc.

My view of theory is that it should always work towards and understanding of the 'soul' of the music. Who it makes me feel a certain way. Why the composer chose certain techniques. What he was trying to tell me with the music.

One thing I like so much about Chopin (and a lot of Debussy) is how natural and uncontrived there music sounds. I never get the impression that Chopin's used a technique for anything other than an artistic end. A perfect example might be the octatonic passage of the etude Op 10 No 9. Here, the use of octatonic pitch material is PERFECT and sounds completely natural to my ears. Compare this to the 6th sonata by Scriabin - a work that, to me, sounds more like a musical experiment than anything with a clearly 'message' (not that I dont love it!).

So often, I tend to focus my analysis work on pieces like this one... where there is really something to debate (both internally and with others) regarding the presentation of harmony and melody, figuration, tonality and their implications with respects to the composer's 'communication'. I dont see the G minor prelude as just a bizarre and tonally daring experiment, rather as a piece with something to say.

If that makes sense 

SJ

[steve jones]

Absolutely, yes thanks.

What Im beginning to see in Chopin's figural preludes and etudes is his willingness to put melodic voiceleading ahead of harmonic stability. We see it in his first prelude, where he uses a run of first and second inversion triads, with the diatonic ascent of the bass along with the chromatic ascend in the melody providing the sense of 'direction'.

Another prefect example I guess would be the fourth prelude where he uses chromatic voiceleading to create a sense of progression and direction into some functionally 'illogical' territory (until concluding the phrase with a convincing cadence).

Perhaps its pieces like this that inspire the likes of Liszt and Wagner to extend tonality as they did?

Another story...

The point being, with respects to this piece... Im not sure if a functional analysis is the right way to go. For me, I dont percieve a sense of functionality from the harmony in this opening phrase. To my ears, this opening phrase is disorientating and tonally ambiguous (with a definate 'shift' occuring in the fifth measure... the response I guess to the opening bars).

I feel that the sense of progress is created through the ascent of diminished and half diminished chords during the first four bars, contrasted with the chromatic descent of dominant and major chords in the following. This seems to give a similar sense of tension and release, as might be felt with more functional progressions. Particularly as Chopin uses the tonic (or atleast heavily eludes to it) at the 'height' of the phrase, as if it were a point of balance.

Be interested to hear how you perceive this music. Indeed, music is sooo subjective. One man's potarto is another man's potato 

SJ