Menuet Style -- Links betwen motions/movements and Music

[m1469]

So, I know that a menuet is a dance, and back when these dances were in practice, there were live instrumentalists playing the music for the dancers to dance by.  What I am wondering is if anybody knows something fairly specific about this.

Did the style/motion of the dance drive the music ?

OR

Did the music drive the motions of the dance ?

(Hmmmmmm.... I think I have actually had this question a lot ... LOL)

Anyway, I guess it's kind of a question of which came first and how they would interact.  The reason I think that's important (and the reason I placed it here in the "performance" board) is because this would inevitably effect the purpose or intent of a given piece, and therefore would effect the interpretation.


Thanks !
m1469

[pianistimo]

i have some notes here - but they are sketchy.  basically (quoting my prof) 'from its contacts with worship, poetry, drama, entertainment, dance, ceremony, the military, the hunt, and the life of the lower classes following what used to be in the upper, music in the early eighteenth century developed a thesaurus of characteristic figures, which formed a rich legacy for the classic composer...they appear as fully worked out pieces or as figures or progressions used within a composition.'  then, he lists:

types: 
dances - minuet, lander, sarabande, polonaise, contredanse or country dance, gavotte, gigue, siciliano  as opposed to...

march

styles:
military or hunt
singing style
brilliant style (virtuoso)
musette, pastorale (see haydn symphony 88, minuet and trio)
french overture
sturm und drang
empfindsamer stil
learned style (contrapuntal)
fantasia

it seems there is no huge developmental style with these set forms (i could be wrong) - but three-part or ternary form are based on 'statement, contrast, and either exact or varied repetition of the statement unit.  (A B A  or A B A1)

the minuet and trio is a special type of ternary form used in dances, dance movements of symphonies, sonatas, and suites; in this particular type of ABA form, the A section is referred to as 'the minuet' and the B section the 'trio.'

i know you already know all this - but as i see it - the minuet became 'passe' in the romantic period and was replaced by either 'scherzo' or 'waltz.'  something that retained the ABA form , but was much freer and could be played much faster or slower?

[pianistimo]

i think your question about motion and music - would be that they worked together simultaneously.  the 3/4 allowed the steps of the minuet to be accomplished but did not distinguish the various shadings that could be made of this dance.  country dances all the way to ballroom dances.  some minuets are quaint - some are more elaborate.  aren't there some minuets with a bit of a prelude - and then other minuets that are so simple as to be almost laughable.  so, we have courtly aristocratic stuff from the baroque era turning into countrified fun dance stuff (country dance) for the average stiff legged commoner.

i guess the prelude idea - comes from the minuet being adopted into the 'suite.'

btw, johann stamitz is typically credited for bringing the 'minuet and trio' into the symphony as a third movement form. 

[pianowolfi]

I just found these two videoclips

https://lcweb2.loc.gov/musdivid/026.mpg

https://lcweb2.loc.gov/musdivid/027.mpg

from this site:

https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html#vc026

and this on youtube

And this baroque cello performance of sarabande and minuet from the cello G-major suite because I find this so very beautifully played and inspiring The minuet starts at 2:50

I'll keep my eyes open.