Do you believe that anyone can learn to play well ?

[danny elfboy]

To bring it back to topic, everybody expresses music in some way already.  At least this is how I see it.  And, we each express some form of everything that belongs to "soul" in our own unique ways.  The form is far less important than the intention.

Except that there are indeed people who hate music, hate listening to it, hate singing, hate humming, hate tapping their feet, dancing or just making a rhythm with plates and knives.

And I agree that the form is far less important than the intention.
For example when someone tell to me "he is not out of tune, he sings so badly" I just reply "no, he just sings differently. Or when  they tell me "he just can't thing" I just reply "the only people who can't sing are voiceless ones, he can sing ... just do it differently"

There's a movie I saw lately called a Bridge to Terabithia and there's a wonderful scene in which this teacher have the pupils making music just making percussive rhythm to accompany pop/country music. We all know how pedantic and useless are the music lessons of schools, trying to conform your own creativity to something you haven't chose; like reading notes, playing the guitar or the recorder. That scene instead showed a kind of teaching that it's really respectful of what music really is.

[m1469]

Except that there are indeed people who hate music, hate listening to it, hate singing, hate humming, hate tapping their feet, dancing or just making a rhythm with plates and knives.

In my opinion, this is still limiting music to some kind of form that many "musical" people consider to be within the realm of "music."  There are qualities of Music in Motherhood and Fatherhood, for example.  I will maintain what I said before (and, btw, I have never in my life met anybody who actually hates music ... LOL ... I think you are actually completely making that up  ).

For example when someone tell to me "he is not out of tune, he sings so badly" I just reply "no, he just sings differently. Or when  they tell me "he just can't thing" I just reply "the only people who can't sing are voiceless ones, he can sing ... just do it differently"

There is a distinction between accepting people's differences at their full potential, and accepting people's differences at less than their full potential.  I am suggesting that many people are not using their instrument to their full potential, and there is no reason they have to accept that as their fate.

[danny elfboy]

(and, btw, I have never in my life met anybody who actually hates music ... LOL ... I think you are actually completely making that up  ).

I do have known them 
After all there's no reason why everyone should appreciate music, just like there's no reason why everyone should appreciate ballet, painting, writing or even their own language (I know so many people who hate their own language  )

There is a distinction between accepting people's differences at their full potential, and accepting people's differences at less than their full potential.  I am suggesting that many people are not using their instrument to their full potential, and there is no reason they have to accept that as their fate.

But how can you that's not their full potential?
I mean, the moment you judge whether their potential is full or not by looking at the form you've automatically brought back the predominance of form into the equation.

Either we accept that form is not as important as intention and therefore we just can't consider it anymore when judging people and their potential or either we accept that form is more important than intention and then we can say that one if not using his or her full potential by judging the form (hence quality of sound, power, control, dynamic, pitch according to pre-existing rules)

[m1469]

I do have known them  :-
After all there's no reason why everyone should appreciate music, just like there's no reason why everyone should appreciate ballet, painting, writing or even their own language (I know so many people who hate their own language  )

Well, I think the point is being missed.  I am not trying to have everybody in the world appreciate certain things.  I am simply trying to serve those who wish to play and admitting my opinion that they already express music in some way, even if not in the classic form that "musicians" would describe it as (and I will draw on these qualities within the individual).  There is not really much more to say on this subject at the time.

But how can you that's not their full potential?
I mean, the moment you judge whether their potential is full or not by looking at the form you've automatically brought back the predominance of form into the equation.

I see you are working to corner me and confuse the topic .   I think that obviously there is some kind of form, but I don't think music is limited in what particular form it takes.  I am suggesting that if a person cannot play a passage that is physically within their reach, that there are actually specific and fixable reasons that it is not occurring.  If they are actually physically capable of using their bodies better, then there is no reason to settle for anything but that.  I don't think there is much more to say on that subject either.

[m]

Provided they are good listeners, follow directions and practice efficiently and consistently.

Yes, I believe so.

[goldentone]

The voice itself, I think, is the most unique physical characteristic we possess.  We are given a voice that is all our own, differentiated from everyone else, with a unique timbre.  When a loved one has died, for example, people think, "If only I could hear their voice again."  Many soul factors color each person's voice, as the voice expresses the soul.  In a confident person, their confidence is part of their voice.  If they are very insecure, then insecurity will be part of their voice.  If they are a warm person, the warmth will be heard.  Other emotional elements such as happiness, joy, sadness, etc. add to the quality of the voice.  Some of these factors, such as warmth, are more or less permanent, and some, like sadness, of a temporal nature.

So the teacher--as m1469 recounted the time that her teacher successfully and almost instantaneously 'unearthed' her talent, the "voice within" of the particular woman who didn't sound pleasing--must have the knowledge and the desire to unlock the musical factors latent within.  (Quite a remarkable story.  That's one of those I will not forget).   The woman's voice was freed at least for a time, just as an unconfident person may have boosts of confidence here and there which will register in their voice.  It only takes one case of somebody who "couldn't" sing to prove that anyone can.

In the case of the piano, compared to singing, I think there is a greater pool of abilities required to produce music, and this may explain the frustration of those who have yet to attain music-making.  If we venture further into the dimension of actually creating music, i.e. composing, we find that there are very few who populate this arena.  How many in history have composed the works of the stature of Beethoven?  Composing original music is quite a rare gift.  But at the same time, I think anyone can create music.

Coordination, sense of rhythm, touch, sensitivity, and an ear represent the start of the multifaceted demand the piano places upon the player.  Desire, which may be the secret of life, I believe is a crucial ingredient in piano success, and in any endeavor.   

     

[leahcim]

This idea of "hang up the gear" if something is not working after years of trying is realistic, however, the gear that should be hung up is not that of "hope" or so, but that of "method" -- if something is not working, change your behavior.   

Yes, that's easily said, but people who can't play will quickly agree but ask "Change it to what?" [You'll probably find a lot of them have 'tried anything / everything' too.

To which it's easy to side step that with "It depends what you're doing wrong" - but someone, somewhere - especially given the large number of people who, ignoring evidence staring them in the face in the thread and elsewhere, claim that anyone can learn, surely one of them must know what this correct behaviour is?

e.g Today, so far, I've spent about an hour trying to play a C Major scale evenly [in terms of dynamics and tempo]  This isn't the only hour I've spent trying this, of course. Over the last few years I've spent hours and hours trying this. And not just morosely playing C D E F G over and over. I'm trying to break it down, just do the thumb passing, just do fingers 1 & 2 and then 2 & 3 and so on. I've tried Bernard / Chang. Neuhaus, Bernstein's books / posts. Various other posts in here [At least as far as they made sense], watching videos of people doing it - like this guy

None of it has worked so far.

I can't do it at 20 bpm let alone faster. How can I practise playing evenly when I simply cannot play evenly in the first place? If practise is the repetition of "correct playing" - then I can't get to the stage of practising [and the conclusion therefore is that I've spent years "practising" playing incorrectly]

Or is it that it will it magically become even one day after hours / day / weeks / years of playing terribly? Somehow I doubt that, but if it does, then it will I guess.

And that's just one small tiny aspect of playing - as the guy in the video says even some of those that think they can play can't do it.

Take any other aspect, some of which at the moment I can't even do and have no idea how to begin to try, sloppily or correctly, that I might attempt at a slow or fast tempo [chords, arpeggios, a piece...and so on] and it's the same.

I cannot play anything at all. In the sense of playing it correctly.

From that the logical conclusion is (a) Either that everyone cannot play or (b) You've all managed to find some correct behaviour that is missing from most 20th/21st century literature - y'know Chang, Bernstein, Neuhaus and so on] on the subject [which means one of you is going to make a lot of money telling people like me the secret]

[bob3.1415926]

I'm not sure if this applies to you,
but I can't play scales smoothly either, and yes I do practice this a lot (not as much as you though - impressive devotion!)
However, I find that when I'm playing quiet legato passages in pieces, once learnt, these come out pretty much smooth and even. Can't explain it really. I think the focused attention on the scales spoils it, but when my attention is distracted by whatever my other hand is doing, or I'm trying to play emotively (I haven't found anything to give in scales so can't try this approach there) it somehow works out ok.
Don't get down about it though. As Duchable says in that video, many fantastic pianists can't play scales smoothly. I see him as a v cold pianist. He sounds like a midi-file at high speed. So although I'd like to be able to play scales like he does (although he should play them quietly - much harder) I don't see him as a pianistic role model. Not for me anyway.
You're really not alone when struggling with scales. Don't be sad 

[leahcim]

You're really not alone when struggling with scales. Don't be sad 

Yes. There are the 'pieces v exercises' and various combinations of the two, schools of thought and some debates in here about which one is best or which ones work.

I'm at the do / try anything - complete desperation stage.

I figure if I can't play a scale, then I'm not going to be able to play a piece.

It's like you hint though, perhaps even if I can do the scales I still won't be able to play pieces.

So now I'm floundering even more as to what to do because this is Bernhard's 'play hanon only if you want to perform hanon' argument versus so many others who say to play hanon and it'll help

But, say k545, I play the first few bars not well, but not too badly and then I hit the set of modal scales A->A, G->G and so on that I cannot play at all. Certainly not at speed - and that's not considered fast - but to me it is. I can't play faster than that and I can't play at that speed with any sense of control.

But as I said, scales [and k545] are just an example of what I tried today.

You could take any other technical or musical aspect and the story is the same. I have no idea and have seen no simple explanation for how to play notes at all, let alone whether they are scales or chords, pieces or exercises. How does someone sit down and play notes...do they move fingers / arm / wrist? Or all or none? Does it matter? Pain suggests it does. Crap playing suggests it does. How does it relate to throwing a stone or balance or playing Hanon? Why don't people who advertise as piano teachers know the answers to any of these questions about playing the piano? It suggests they are the wrong questions or the wrong teachers...

I could have talked about playing 2 or more notes so they all sound together or playing one of those notes louder than the rest or playing them all at the same volume. Or playing p as opposed to f or ppp or fff - whatever they sound like. Am I playing p or f? I have no idea. If you ask people will say it depends on the piece.

I can't do any of these things correctly either, so the first piece that has a few 3rds in it or a chord or a dynamic marked, a crescendo and so on, I can't play.

I've sat down with everything from a noddy kids books full of pieces that are just one note C C C C and nursery rhymes through pieces from grade 1 to 6, and I've not played a single piece from start to finish with control and musicality yet. More to the point, I haven't the first foggiest clue where to begin, after 5 years and 3 teachers none of whom began to answer my questions. And no evidence that the next 5 years will offer anything that will make any difference.

If I don't play the piano then I'm bored - I have nothing else to do and nothing particularly motivating me to start something else [moreso if it ends like this, in misery and failure - once is enough] and if I do play I'm left in this situation - where I can't even get through a few cheesy, easy pop songs to entertain myself, let alone do classical or romantic rep some justice.

I know it sounds negative [and quite a few have decided that's the reason] but it's the current situation and it has made me far worse than sad. This is just the result of 5 years with no progress though, not the cause.

[danny elfboy]

Yes. There are the 'pieces v exercises' and various combinations of the two, schools of thought and some debates in here about which one is best or which ones work.

I'm at the do / try anything - complete desperation stage.

I figure if I can't play a scale, then I'm not going to be able to play a piece.

It's like you hint though, perhaps even if I can do the scales I still won't be able to play pieces.

So now I'm floundering even more as to what to do because this is Bernhard's 'play hanon only if you want to perform hanon' argument versus so many others who say to play hanon and it'll help

But, say k545, I play the first few bars not well, but not too badly and then I hit the set of modal scales A->A, G->G and so on that I cannot play at all. Certainly not at speed - and that's not considered fast - but to me it is. I can't play faster than that and I can't play at that speed with any sense of control.

But as I said, scales [and k545] are just an example of what I tried today.

You could take any other technical or musical aspect and the story is the same. I have no idea and have seen no simple explanation for how to play notes at all, let alone whether they are scales or chords, pieces or exercises. How does someone sit down and play notes...do they move fingers / arm / wrist? Or all or none? Does it matter? Pain suggests it does. Crap playing suggests it does. How does it relate to throwing a stone or balance or playing Hanon? Why don't people who advertise as piano teachers know the answers to any of these questions about playing the piano? It suggests they are the wrong questions or the wrong teachers...

I could have talked about playing 2 or more notes so they all sound together or playing one of those notes louder than the rest or playing them all at the same volume. Or playing p as opposed to f or ppp or fff - whatever they sound like. Am I playing p or f? I have no idea. If you ask people will say it depends on the piece.

I can't do any of these things correctly either, so the first piece that has a few 3rds in it or a chord or a dynamic marked, a crescendo and so on, I can't play.

I've sat down with everything from a noddy kids books full of pieces that are just one note C C C C and nursery rhymes through pieces from grade 1 to 6, and I've not played a single piece from start to finish with control and musicality yet. More to the point, I haven't the first foggiest clue where to begin, after 5 years and 3 teachers none of whom began to answer my questions. And no evidence that the next 5 years will offer anything that will make any difference.

If I don't play the piano then I'm bored - I have nothing else to do and nothing particularly motivating me to start something else [moreso if it ends like this, in misery and failure - once is enough] and if I do play I'm left in this situation - where I can't even get through a few cheesy, easy pop songs to entertain myself, let alone do classical or romantic rep some justice.

I know it sounds negative [and quite a few have decided that's the reason] but it's the current situation and it has made me far worse than sad. This is just the result of 5 years with no progress though, not the cause.

I think I might help you
I have in the past answered the very same questions you have proposed but I remember you dismissed my answers. You need to build a foundation and to work on building a foundation even if it is a bit tiring and tedious but from there things will improve a lot.

[leahcim]

I think I might help you
I have in the past answered the very same questions you have proposed but I remember you dismissed my answers.

I can't think where. Point me to it to remind me. The only possibility is that you're the person who showed one static picture and quoted from a website Xvimbi initially made popular here?

I noted that the website has been posted here before and  it's not really saying anything other trying to sell further materials that purport to help pianists avoid injuries. I also pointed out that one static picture and saying nothing about movements doesn't tell the story. If you're struggling to keep your hand still in that fixed position, perhaps it would.

I'm struggling to play the piano, in a way that pretty much literally means moving parts of my body from one position to a different one. Comfortable movements and musicality too. Getting one without the other doesn't work either, which is another problem I have with Alexander technique by itself.

It's relatively easy to find a comfortable way that sounds just as sloppy and out of control as a tense way does. Alexander says nothing about musicality. When trying to get control back and sound musical, IME, you're often back at square one. That's not to say it is bad, it just cannot be comprehensive [and besides, when I went to learn Kung Fu, the guy said I should learn piano because the movements piano uses would help and I had to say "I was, they sent me here..." I'm kidding, but I want to learn piano, not ballet or kung fu, yoga or whatever ]

That said, this idea about "long fingers" does crop up. See for example

although note how harsh his playing is, and how off the key his fingers seem as well as lots of extraneous movements - do you agree? are my observations correct?

His movements seem uncomfortable to me, both watching them and trying them - although he doesn't show enough of his arms but, for example, when he says "your elbows aren't out" if they still aren't out when he does the bird thing, and isn't feeling discomfort, he has very different arms from me.

I suspect he is either exaggerating the movements without explicitly stating that fact [which is likely to confuse some people hoping it will help them, possibly to the point of hurting themselves] or simply wrong.

I believe most of what he is saying is paraphrasing Taubman?

This guy, on the other hand, https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/movies/beast.html has yet another way to use the fingers, with this set of do and don't videos. Is he right? If so, I fail to see how both videos in this thread can be, because they are markedly different IMO.

Eventually we reached the stage IIRC, where you decided you were going to get a phd in neurological research or something similarly lofty, but couldn't speak English well enough? If that isn't you, apologies.

OTOH, if that's you then no, sorry, however much you think you answered the questions and I argued against them, you didn't begin to answer them. No one has. Not even Bernhard or Marik both of whom might have come close.

Even he said that he couldn't answer them in posts. Kudos to you if you prove him wrong, but see Marik's recent post - he says it's like throwing a stone - I pointed out I probably couldn't throw stones then, hoping he might add something but he appears to have disappeared.

Do you agree with him? If so I fail to see the correlation between your earlier posts and stone throwing? OTOH, if you don't agree with him perhaps you see my point in earlier posts in this thread? I'm overdosing on different conflicting methods - every pianist seems to have at least 2 opinions and yet a 3rd that he actually does himself when at the piano. I'm struggling to find which is correct, if any.

Perhaps you think you've answered the questions elsewhere? A quick glance at your earlier posts and I see threads like "Is it bad to move the fingers?" to which you contribute, but again these are people, in general, arguing about what is right and barely able to get past an agreement on what "arm weight"actually is or isn't, let alone begin to show or tell how someone might play correctly using it. You see, it's trivial to say "relax, arm weight" - but trust me, to someone who can't play a note, it makes no sense at all. We read it, we try it, we kid ourselves that we did understand and that it's working [see umteen posts, from me and other to that effect] but the playing gets no better.

All that said, perhaps, if you have a reply to this post we should start another thread to discuss it - because bringing up past threads, especially if it starts "you said this, you said that" probably won't be very productive or on topic. It's just about on topic for me to say "FFS guys, I can't play...which obviously proves not everyone can" but I don't want to bog the thread down too much talking about my lack of skill per se and folk helping me, as much as I'll appreciate it.

[bob3.1415926]

I'm no expert, so I can only tell you what I found helped me. I personally used Hanon for quite a while. Started with part one, playing through it all everyday, changing key everyday (cycling through all 12) sometimes legato, sometimes staccato, sometimes p, sometimes f, sometimes dotting the rhythms. When I felt I had that at a good speed, I added in part two, the first half of which I did cycling through keys again, the entirety with the dynamic and articulation changes. Then I eventually started to add in part 3, an exercise or two at a time. You really have to focus on relaxation at this point, otherwise you will wake up with aching wrists the next day.

I'd got to the 2nd to last exercise in part 3, when I noticed that I'd stopped concentrating during the early exercises, I could basically play them in my sleep. At this point I stopped Hanon-ing for quite a while.

Now I do five exercises from 1-20 in a random key every day, except hands separately, so I can focus on my LH. During the period I was doing it intensely, I improved a lot. Probably faster than any other time in my life. However, towards the latter end it was taking me ~1.5hrs a day and I wasn't finding time to do much work on pieces, so my repertoire was stagnating. Now I'm learning pieces much faster than before, so it seems like a fair trade off.
This worked for me. I can't say what would have happened to my playing if I'd spent that time playing other things, because I just don't know, but I'm happy with the outcome.

Playing chords cleanly together is another thing I struggle with (still) I tend to try to play them staccato (then they're always together) and then 'reduce' the staccato. Hope that makes sense.

Try and seek out a good piano teacher. Lots of people seem to assume that because they're able (or reasonably able) pianists, they will automatically be good teachers. This is not true. But a good teacher can make a massive difference, and questions about technique are much easier to answer when they can watch you at a piano, rather than read them on a forum 

My playing is far from perfect, but I've accepted that. I still want to improve, but encouragement works much better for me than beating myself up. I played silly games as a kid, and chased girls and got drunk as a teenager. I didn't just sit and practice piano. As a result I'll never be a concert pianist, but I will have lots of silly stories to tell the various friends I've picked up doing these activities. Just enjoy your playing. Maybe you can't play those runs in K545 perfectly. It doesn't matter. You probably couldn't have even thought about tackling that piece several years ago. If you keep practicing, you will keep improving.

I used to find that there was a tempo sweet spot. I could play things slowly, and there was a fast speed I could play them at which my rhythmical inaccuracies became mostly hidden by the speed, but I couldn't play them in between without it sounding awful. That Hanon regime cured that for me. But as I said, this is only tested on me. Good luck! And remember, if you feel down about your playing, learn some Elton John and play it to your friends. They'll think you're a genius 

[danny elfboy]

I can't think where. Point me to it to remind me. The only possibility is that you're the person who showed one static picture and quoted from a website Xvimbi initially made popular here?

Yeah, I showed pianomap website BUT I didn't show it in order to say anything about "playing well" or "overcome playing problems" but just in relations to chronic tendonitis.
The website seels a book with is 200 pages and rich of information and pictures and rather cheap. But again it was to meant to say anything about playing but about injuries and people who have already developed a chronic injury.

I'm struggling to play the piano, in a way that pretty much literally means moving parts of my body from one position to a different one. Comfortable movements and musicality too. Getting one without the other doesn't work either, which is another problem I have with Alexander technique by itself.

Alexander technique is just about painless and anatomical correct movements but it doesn't deal with struggles in piano technique. In fact never a lesson of Alexander the piano is used.

It's relatively easy to find a comfortable way that sounds just as sloppy and out of control as a tense way does. Alexander says nothing about musicality. When trying to get control back and sound musical, IME, you're often back at square one. That's not to say it is bad, it just cannot be comprehensive [and besides, when I went to learn Kung Fu, the guy said I should learn piano because the movements piano uses would help and I had to say "I was, they sent me here..." I'm kidding, but I want to learn piano, not ballet or kung fu, yoga or whatever ]

That said, this idea about "long fingers" does crop up. See for example

although note how harsh his playing is, and how off the key his fingers seem as well as lots of extraneous movements - do you agree? are my observations correct?

Yes, but I don't believe that there are anatomical characteristics that doesn't allow someone to play the piano properly. Just that each characteristic needs to find what suits it.
So for example people with short fingers need certain things, people with long fingers need other things, people with small hands need other things. Then there are people with long legs and short torso and people with short legs and long torso. Short upper arm and long forearm or long upper arms and short forearms. The approach changes for each of them.

His movements seem uncomfortable to me, both watching them and trying them - although he doesn't show enough of his arms but, for example, when he says "your elbows aren't out" if they still aren't out when he does the bird thing, and isn't feeling discomfort, he has very different arms from me.

Exactly, you can't mimic someone who doesn't have your same body consistution and same anatomical characteristics. There are even internal difference like for example certain people have different tendons and certain people lack certain tendons. Everything though can be adjusted and everyone can find the approach that works for him/her.

This guy, on the other hand, https://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/movies/beast.html has yet another way to use the fingers, with this set of do and don't videos. Is he right? If so, I fail to see how both videos in this thread can be, because they are markedly different IMO.

People rarely agree. If you look at ballet, singing lessons, gymnastics, soccer, acting, cooking and what not ... people never agree. What I think is this: does prople who disagree eventually reach the same goal? If so then the idea that there was just 1 way is totally wrong and indeed I believe that there are many ways to reach the same goal, all working but each working for a certain kind of people and not working for another kind.

Eventually we reached the stage IIRC, where you decided you were going to get a phd in neurological research or something similarly lofty, but couldn't speak English well enough? If that isn't you, apologies.

No, that wasn't me 

you didn't begin to answer them. No one has. Not even Bernhard or Marik both of whom might have come close.

Just ask and I will try to answer
Make a lit of question [ 1)  2) ... ] one after another and I will try to answer them

Do you agree with him? If so I fail to see the correlation between your earlier posts and stone throwing? OTOH, if you don't agree with him perhaps you see my point in earlier posts in this thread? I'm overdosing on different conflicting methods - every pianist seems to have at least 2 opinions and yet a 3rd that he actually does himself when at the piano. I'm struggling to find which is correct, if any.

It's called "paralysis by analysis"
You're overlwhelmed by an informative overdose and you just don't know what to do while trying to find something that makes sense anymore among thousands of conflicting and contradicting information. In my opinion you need a remove everything else and just focus on the universal basis and building a foundation in order to find what "works for you".
And remember that what works for you might be something that doesn't work for anyone else, just you in the whole world. That's what you need to find.

Perhaps you think you've answered the questions elsewhere? A quick glance at your earlier posts and I see threads like "Is it bad to move the fingers?" to which you contribute, but again these are people, in general, arguing about what is right and barely able to get past an agreement on what "arm weight"actually is or isn't, let alone begin to show or tell how someone might play correctly using it. You see, it's trivial to say "relax, arm weight" - but trust me, to someone who can't play a note, it makes no sense at all. We read it, we try it, we kid ourselves that we did understand and that it's working [see umteen posts, from me and other to that effect] but the playing gets no better.

I noticed that when I kept asking questions because I didn't understand something (or because they could explain it properly) people would get pissed off at me as if I was wasting their time or not understanding on purpose. Make that lists of question and if you don't understand my answers keep asking and asking, even 200 times. I just think that people should keep asking till they're use to have really understood and we should't blame them for not understanding at once.

All that said, perhaps, if you have a reply to this post we should start another thread to discuss it - because bringing up past threads, especially if it starts "you said this, you said that" probably won't be very productive or on topic. It's just about on topic for me to say "FFS guys, I can't play...which obviously proves not everyone can" but I don't want to bog the thread down too much talking about my lack of skill per se and folk helping me, as much as I'll appreciate it.

Okay, start another thread in the Student Corner section just about you, and start with a list of questions you have and would like to be answered.

[richy321]

I've reread all of Leahcim's posts in this thread, partly out of morbid fascination and sympathy, but also because it touches on important issues for anyone who is interested in musical talent and learning theory.  Here are some of my thoughts:


Talent

The amount of musical talent at one's disposal is definitely determined by genetics and undoubtedly there are some people who are so lacking in it as make it virtually impossible to achieve any success, but my guess is that 2 to 10% is a more realistic number than 98% as Leahcim suggests.  In Leahcims' case, I would not think this is the problem, seeing that he obviously has a strong desire to learn, and his self-criticism of his playing tells me that he has at least the minimum ability to discern pitches, rhythm, dynamics and harmony to support musical learning. 


Mental Attitude

A relentless negativity towards even the possibility of learning to play the piano is evident in Leahcim's posts.  Regardless of the origins and rationale of this posture, it is a fact that repeating the words "I can't do it" will have a self-fulfilling effect.  This is not a mere platitude.  If you have ever done experiments in self-hypnosis, you will know that such habits have a surprisingly powerful effect.  Somehow you need to replace it with a positive, affirmative statement, even if you don't believe it initially. 

BTW, the repetition of negative phrases is an example of oppositional behavior analogous to the contraction of opposing muscles which causes tension, which is the most crippling and injurious of all habits in piano playing.  Methinks that the negative tape playing has a similarly crippling effect.


Pain and Injury

In addition to the lack of improvement, pain is a sure sign that there are fundamental problems will your bodily coordination.  (Another sign would be if your dentist insists that you are grinding your teeth during sleep and you are positive that you don't.)  These are not obvious issues which you can diagnose and treat yourself.  It requires outside help, whether Alexander training, or a piano teacher trained in these matters.   Alexander training is focused on general body movement and most likely not sufficiently specific to piano playing to be satisfactory.  In my case, finding a good Taubman-trained teacher was just what I needed.  If I were Leahcim, I would make every effort to locate Alexander and holistically- oriented piano teachers.  One of the most influential books on the subject, "The Pianists's Talent" is by Harold Taylor of the UK, so I must believe there is some following there.  The most important thing I got out of the book (although not stated explicitly) is the fact that teaching of good coordination can only be done in person, with a great deal of physical contact (reciprocally) between pupil and teacher.   That's the only way that excess tension can be detected and corrected.  No amount of reading, thinking or practicing can do it.  I can vouch for this personally.


Playing Well

In saying that the vast majority of people who have the desire to play the piano and make an honest effort at it can eventually play well, I mean that they will be able to play in a way that gives them sufficient musical satisfaction and enjoyment to make the effort unquestionably worth the effort, as opposed to being the cause of frustration and despair.   That is not to say that it will not in some cases entail a long, twisting journey of change, surprises and self-discovery.  I think it's better that way.

Richy

[leahcim]

A relentless negativity towards even the possibility of learning to play the piano is evident in Leahcim's posts.  Regardless of the origins and rationale of this posture, it is a fact that repeating the words "I can't do it" will have a self-fulfilling effect.  This is not a mere platitude.  If you have ever done experiments in self-hypnosis, you will know that such habits have a surprisingly powerful effect.

We're digressing here. But I'll address this because it's interesting...and create the 'why can't leahcim play...' thread later

IMO, you only have to watch Pop Idol [or the American equivalents] to see that there are people who believe themselves to be able to sing, to be slim and attractive and to be capable of getting and establishing a singing career in popular music.

I'm not talking about the people desperate to get on TV. There are folk in the auditions who really believe it.

Now listen to them singing [if the fact they are 20 stone and have a beard hasn't already convinced you that their comparison of their body to Cristina or whoever, isn't based in reality]

Oops. This is your power of positive thought in action. It works, I agree. It's easy for someone to convince themselves that they are brilliant at something through the power of the mind.

They might find friends and family compounding it -  in at least one case on a recent talent show, a lady brought along her singing teacher. She was awful - she couldn't sing for toffee.

Did that teacher tell her that? Did he flinch when the presenter asked him about her singing? No. Precisely the opposite. He was full of her ability and how much progress she'd made with his teaching.

The whole process appeared to be a great boost for her self confidence. This is no doubt similar to the effect of letting everyone pass an exam no matter how dumb they are in that subject. Or perhaps it's the kind of thing that site written for adult pianists means when it mentions teachers who think they are offering therapy to adults wanting to learn piano.

But it's not actually what she wanted to happen. Surely, she wanted to be able to sing rather than to have deluded herself [or, rather, with the help of an expensive teacher] into believing she could do something when in reality she couldn't do it?

You can read the threads in here from some teachers asking, more or less, how much they should BS and manipulate their students to that effect.

OTOH, there are people who play piano to a high standard. People who are slim. People who are attractive. They don't believe it. Some even go as far as to disfigure themselves because of this deluded belief that they are ugly or fat. They aren't as funny as Pop Idol contestants.

But I'm not, I don't believe, delusional either way. Neither positively or negatively. I am depressed, without a doubt, but plenty are worse off in that respect.

But of course I'm stating that not everyone will learn. Firstly, because that is what the thread asked and secondly, because I've been playing for a period of time that I believe it reasonable to have expected some progress. So it's experience. I'm not sitting here thinking I can't play it. I'm sitting here unable to play it.

If I could play and thought I couldn't then yes, self-hypnosis or whatever might then appear to work - but I could already play, the hypnosis hasn't done anything to improve the pianist.

Hypnosis doesn't improve piano playing nor learning ability - it doesn't even make you see the audience are naked or act like a chicken when you hear the name "Bing Crosby" other than because you're willing to go along with the act.

If you want to test this theory then you have to believe I can play too. So, pay to come and hear me play, I'll put on a concert. You all buy tickets. We can all think positively that I can play and that I'll be able to play the pieces in the programme.  But caveat emptor. You'd be better buying tickets to another show

In general, people who think there's nothing they can't do if they put their mind to it are either on the Disney channel, or usually not that capable of doing much, if anything, at all

But note, as well as typing stuff in here, I still play the piano every day. I wouldn't keep trying if I didn't still hold some, even tiny, hope of being wrong, and actually started to improve. But, in the meantime, I don't want to BS people that ask.

[timothy42b]

But note, as well as typing stuff in here, I still play the piano every day. I wouldn't keep trying if I didn't still hold some, even tiny, hope of being wrong, and actually started to improve. But, in the meantime, I don't want to BS people that ask.

Two thoughts: 

Your comments about Idol make me wonder if your standards for play well are too high.  True, when you compare an Idol performer to a real professional you can see a considerable gap, and true there are occasional bad singers thrown in for comic relief - but most of them sing well, just not at a level where I'd buy their CD. 

Second, your earlier post was very reminiscent of the phenomenon athletes call choking.  This is actually an extreme self consciousness about your motions.  Once an athlete starts this his performance immediately drops, then in an effort to improve he pays even more attention, and a vicious cycle has started.  While I am not an Inner Tennis fan, this is a case where more analysis is not better. 

Third (okay, I lied) I play regularly in church when the better players have scheduling conflicts.  Normally that's three hymns and a doxology for the Protestant services, this Sunday I'm struggling with four hymns and seven service pieces for the Catholics.  Can you help me out?  Or could you if you were closer?  Meaning with a week to do it, and nobody criticizing how much you want to simplify the chords, could you play one or two hymns reasonably fluently?  I don't claim I play well, but I can certainly bang out a melody and accompaniment without a train wreck. 

[m1469]

If you want to test this theory then you have to believe I can play too. So, pay to come and hear me play, I'll put on a concert. You all buy tickets. We can all think positively that I can play and that I'll be able to play the pieces in the programme.  But caveat emptor. You'd be better buying tickets to another show

I actually do believe you, leachim.  I don't believe you are delluded, I don't believe your standarad just keeps going up and therefore you are pickier and pickier with yourself, I believe that you cannot play.  What I don't believe is that it is unfixable.  I am not talking about thinking positively and delluding oneself into thinking they can play when they can't, as I am sure you know.  I am simply trying to discern whether or not there is actually anything fundamentally concrete about one person over another being able to play, and I still don't think there is anything about this that is not, ultimately, fixable.  Does that mean that everything will actually get fixed ?  No, it sure doesn't, but there are reasons for that, too.

I will just add that whether or not somebody plays a concert career because of being able to play well is not what I am talking about.  I am simply talking about a person being able to pick up a piece of music and be able to play it (I don't think there is truly any playing something "well" or not, there is just playing it or not playing it), period.  

[leahcim]

Your comments about Idol make me wonder if your standards for play well are too high. 

I can only assume the American version is different to the UK then - perhaps you see less of the auditions?

I'm not fretting about not being able to play Rach 3. I'm not worried that my version of a piece isn't as good as Horowitz's. I'm completely and utterly crap at playing even the most simple, basic and fundamental things, even with hands separate and at 40bpm. How high a standard is that?

Bernard's mantra was always "Anyone can play 2 notes" - a way of saying you can split just about any piece up into small chunks, that you can then play well enough that you can then practise. But I cannot play 2 notes. Or I can, but in such myriad ways that they are never consistent and never well enough to make practise worthwhile - practise, in the sense of trying to embed those notes so you can always play them well.

I can play something. I can listen back and hear what is wrong with it. If I posted it to the audition room others would point out what was wrong with it. In terms like "left / right hand is uneven...left / right  hand is too loud...tempo fluctuates...where's the rest of the piece?" - and so on and so on. If I posted a grade one piece, that would be that. If I posted something more difficult folk would say that I wasn't ready for that piece. There is no piece that I could play that would be right - in the sense that, following their "not ready" logic I could then move forward [Note : I don't necessarily care for their logic, I'm just trying to give you a picture of what my playing is like in those terms]

But, at that point, ignoring the theatrics and just taking the objective criticisms. That's where I'd be stuck. Because I have no more idea what to do to make the left hand even, the tempo even, the left hand louder or softer, the right hand more musical, the accent at 1:13 appear [or the various random accents dotted about, disappear] than I know how to build a fusion reactor [even then I could probably google and find out the answer to the latter. The former, if it exists, is a secret as far as the internet is concerned]

Is that really so difficult to comprehend? Its not what is wrong that's the issue - this is what, in my experience, a lot of teachers believe teaching is - they think they are saying all these things about the piece and their student is "wow, I never realised...ok" and to be fair, when I'm actually in the process of playing it's not so easy for me to tell. Perhaps a lot don't know. But, the part of teaching that describes "right, I know what's wrong now, but how do I fix it?" that seems to be missing. Who teaches that?

It seems to me to be trivial to listen to a piece and state what is wrong with it when it's extremely wrong. Conversely, you know when someone posts to Audition room and folk say "I'm not an expert...it sounds great to me.." that the piece is at a certain standard where I, and the people writing that kind of comment would definitely need a teacher to sit and pull the piece apart to make it better. Yeah? If I get to that standard and I'm still moaning, go ahead and shoot me. But, aside from my mother, who said I was good despite never hearing me play,
no one is going to listen to something I play and say "well, I'm no expert, but it sounded good to me.."

Second, your earlier post was very reminiscent of the phenomenon athletes call choking.  This is actually an extreme self consciousness about your motions.  Once an athlete starts this his performance immediately drops, then in an effort to improve he pays even more attention, and a vicious cycle has started.  While I am not an Inner Tennis fan, this is a case where more analysis is not better. 

Possibly, but bear in mind that if your right shoulder feels like someone has stuck a knife in it, you pretty much figure you've got to analyse it, no? I ignore it, obviously - otherwise I wouldn't play at all - but ignoring it hasn't made it go away.

Similarly, as I said above, sometimes when I play I can't tell how bad it is....at those times I might play without focussing too much on it. The playing isn't better though.

So yeah, I'd like to get to the stage where not focussing on things is possible, where it's instinct rather than pondering about what to do next - I can do that when I drive a car - but I can't do that yet when I play the piano - or I can, but I just crash the piano killing Beethoven and 3 of his passages

Or could you if you were closer?  Meaning with a week to do it, and nobody criticizing how much you want to simplify the chords, could you play one or two hymns reasonably fluently?

I can't because I'm not close enough. But I think I get your drift. I could possibly play roughly the right notes, in the right order. It'd be a train wreck though. It wouldn't be musical.

I'll post a recording of something and you can hear.

The problems I have with other genres is that, often they are up tempo, repeated chords [I know classical music has these too - and faster stuff, but I can avoid these pieces] That is complete agony. I have no technique for playing it.

e.g, this

the right hand, at least at the beginning is just triplets, a repeated Gm triad over the descending bass. But it's too fast for me to play comfortably. So note that when I say fast, it is very relative.

Boogie woogie for example, again, it often has triplet chords / notes in 4/4, wide interval trills, rhythm. None of which I can do. You can imagine how bad boogie woogie sounds if the one element it has - the constant, rhythmic left hand is wrong [classical music sounds just as bad when the rhythm and pulse are wrong too - but with an implied pulse, plenty of pedal and "rubato" it might be less obvious]

Most boogie woogie pieces are way too fast for me to play comfortably. Yes, even if I play it slowly first - the rhythm and dynamics are right even at slow speeds.

Something like the rhythm of Take 5? Again, too fast, and then you've compounded 2 things - that I can't play 1, 2 and 3 and 4, correctly, let alone swinging 5/4.

So I can't even think "sod, classical, I'll have fun playing this instead" because more often than not it's just as hard - the same fundamental technique problems are there, because it's the piano that I can't play. The instrument itself. I can't play notes -whatever those notes are.

Perhaps it's because I'm moving too much or not enough, my fingers are too far away from the key or too close to the keys, I'm not relaxed enough or I'm too relaxed. I'm sitting too high or too low or too close or too far away. Perhaps I should be using my shoulder / wrist / elbow / finger or not. Or perhaps it's something else entirely. I have absolutely no idea - except, as I say, if playing is supposed to feel comfortable, then it doesn't for me.

In the other genres there's even less material about how to play - it's all about what notes to play - if there's a page in a book, then you're lucky. More often than not it states the blindingly obvious "you need to sit and play correctly, or your playing will suffer and it could lead to injury" - without actually saying anything at all about what "correctly" supposedly is.

[pianoplayjl]

Yes, I believe anyone can learn to play well. I think one of the factors are how committed is the student, how the student practices, how hard the student practices, the style of teaching, etc.