the return of pianistimo; the battle for middle earth rages on

[thalbergmad]

Catastrophe can be sudden and quite catastrophic. 

Catastrophe can be catastrophic!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you so much, i never realised this.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Thal, prove to me that the ice-age was even 10,000 years ago

Do your own research.

I do not waste time with spastics.

[pianistimo]

Spastic now.  OK.  whatever!

You fail to mention any observation that might agree with your point of view and move right to insults.  Some kind of mad scientist you are - keeping all this knowledge to yourself.  Well, it might interest you to know (as you already do) that in greenland they drilled down two miles and hit water.  I suppose when they finish analyzing this permafrost and ice they'll come up with something more interesting than they have so far.  They believe the length of the core tells them something about age (120,000 years or so) - but, what if the earth was flooded.  That kind of screws up things.

Things float in water.  Water can freeze.  Titanic - people mid-way frozen into ice-blocks of time.  They fell off a boat.  The heavier ones sunk faster.  OK.  now, change this scenario to animals.  Voila.  Many strata - frozen.  Discuss.

[thalbergmad]

Your mind is already made up, so what is the point in discussing with you? Just about everyone else on this forum has given up with you as you are a waste of time.

Your brain is not programmed to process data that disproves your moronic earth age theories and your absurd book of bronze age fairytales. Despite an enormous weight of evidence to the contrary, you will never budge as you are already a fully formed fundamentalist pea brain.

Go and irritate someone else.

Thal

[pianistimo]

No.

Hills are sinking from permafrost melt in Canada and the Arctic regions.  Where does the water go?  Down.  But, how far down are the fossils and stuff?  I'm just asking.  It's all a mystery but don't go telling me you know all the answers.  You don't.  You and I are in the same and yet different places.  You can't tell me why it is so.  I can.  Because God existed before me.

[thalbergmad]

Woman, you can disappear up your own butt as far as i am concerned.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Don't come on the thread if you don't want to talk.  It's simple - but I guess you haven't thought of it.

[thalbergmad]

It's all a mystery but don't go telling me you know all the answers.  You don't. 

I don't know all the answers, but at least i am willing to adjust my own beliefs from evidence given.

You enter into a discussion with a rigid belief that the Bible is 100% correct, so you will never actually learn anything and any evidence to the contrary will have absolutely no effect on you whatsoever. You are stuck in a pit of darkness from which you cannot escape.

Therefore any time spent on answering your posts is a waste of time and energy as many on this forum have already discovered.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Don't come on the thread if you don't want to talk. 

It is only you that i do not wish to talk with, not other people with open minds.

Thal

[pianistimo]

How about abrupt climate change?  Why don't you open your mind?!

https://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/arch/printer.shtml

It's just that i read this article also with a grain of salt.  For instance, WHERE did all the freshwater come from that drained out the St. Lawrence into the ocean?  They can't explain the flood - but they see the consequences of large amounts of freshwater spilling into the ocean and affecting the THC.  So, if it happens again with glacial melting...what's the surprise.  It's like the flood happening again.  God is mysterious - but He also is predictable.  It's a double thing - because if we once had that much water - we will also have it again.  And, if we once had an extreme climate change - which affected the entire earth to one degree or another - then we probably will again. 

It's just that it all 'climaxes' at the time that God says so.  It's not really predictable, per se - although we attempt to predict catastrophes.  But, who can predict when faultlines will break or sudden influxes again of freshwater into the ocean by means of large glaciers suddenly melting faster than we thought.  And, when the ice-coring machine hit water under 2 miles of ice - that was a surprise to the scientists.  When God said - during the flood - that he let loose the 'floodgates' under the ocean - He meant exactly that.

[ahinton]

How about abrupt climate change?  Why don't you open your mind?!

No one in his/her right mind is arguing against the existence of climate change (but then the recent past, present and immediate future changes in climate are hardly new), but you seem bent on ascribing cliamte change and just about everything else to Biblical prophecy; how do you suppose your entrenched, persistent and inflexible attitudes go down among the non-Christian subscribers to other faiths?

Nver mind Thal's insults, Susan - just think; THINK, Susan - for yourself, if need be aided by but not hidebound by that Bible of yours...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

I do think, Alistair.  More than you realize.  I think about the potential for many things to happen - whether nuclear war, sudden melting of glaciers and rising of sea and changing temperatures (since the ocean cools our atmosphere) - and also the biblical prophecy that men will swear at God for the intense heat on the earth.  It's in revelations - I'll look it up.

OK.  It's revelations 16:8-12 - 'and men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues....'  - this intense heat actually is responsible for drying up the Euphrates in preparation for the kings that would gather and fight at armaggeddon.

This sounds like a movie similar to the 10 commandments excepting that it leads to the return of Jesus Christ.  I believe this - and I don't think people will laugh or scoff when it happens.  It is predicted.  God is God.  He knows what is coming.

What we have is a difference of opinion - not deep thought.  Can you save yourself from some major catastrophe.  No.  So why not trust in God for salvation now and in the future.  He does say that those who trust in Him will not be disappointed.

[ahinton]

I do think, Alistair.  More than you realize.  I think about the potential for many things to happen - whether nuclear war, sudden melting of glaciers and rising of sea and changing temperatures (since the ocean cools our atmosphere) - and also the biblical prophecy that men will swear at God for the intense heat on the earth.

Yes, that's just it - you can't ever seem to do more than two consecutive metres' worth of thinking without recourse to that Bible of yours! I'm not swearing at anyone for the climate; nor are millions of others.

It's in revelations - I'll look it up.

Oh, so it is - and so you will...

OK.  It's revelations 16:8-12 - 'and men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues....'  - this intense heat actually is responsible for drying up the Euphrates in preparation for the kings that would gather and fight at armaggeddon.

You're referring here (or rather the R of St. J the D is) to a particular perceived threat to the climate in the Middle East two thousand years ago; what's that got to do with worldwide global climate changes today, especially in a situation where hardly anyone is currently "blaspheming the name of God" over such changes?

This sounds like a movie similar to the 10 commandments excepting that it leads to the return of Jesus Christ.  I believe this - and I don't think people will laugh or scoff when it happens.  It is predicted.  God is God.  He knows what is coming.

I cannot help but note yet again that you desist from answering my points about this "second coming" business; in the meantime, I know what's coming - and it's yet more of the same from you, Susan...

What we have is a difference of opinion - not deep thought.  Can you save yourself from some major catastrophe.  No.  So why not trust in God for salvation now and in the future.  He does say that those who trust in Him will not be disappointed.

I have never said anything about whether or not I trust in God, so please don't ask or seek to make assumptions that will likely be unfounded. What I cannot put my trust in is the kind of inflexible dogma that puts Christians in some kind of priveleged position above all other humans, not least because I don't think Christ Himself would have approved of that...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Why don't you open your mind?!

It is beyond belief that you ask me to do that. My mind is very open, but yours is tightly closed as you cannot even think or write without recourse to your silly little book.

If we added up all of the verses you have quoted in your 12,000 or so posts, you have probably written the entire Bible on here and possibly more.

I know that you are feeble minded and have only had a basic education, but if you are to educate yourself, you need to get your head out of the scriptures and into some science. The goat hearding spear throwing Neanderthals who wrote the Old Testament, were not fortunate enough to have books or the internet, but you have.  It is a sin not to use the opportunities you have of opening your eyes and mind.

So tomorrow, i strongly recommend that you go to your local library, ask for something suitable for 5 year olds and start learning.

Thal

[prometheus]

If they are able to find proteins then that is so amazing.

[ahinton]

It is beyond belief that you ask me to do that. My mind is very open, but yours is tightly closed as you cannot even think or write without recourse to your silly little book.

If we added up all of the verses you have quoted in your 12,000 or so posts, you have probably written the entire Bible on here and possibly more.

I know that you are feeble minded and have only had a basic education, but if you are to educate yourself, you need to get your head out of the scriptures and into some science. The goat hearding spear throwing Neanderthals who wrote the Old Testament, were not fortunate enough to have books or the internet, but you have.  It is a sin not to use the opportunities you have of opening your eyes and mind.

So tomorrow, i strongly recommend that you go to your local library, ask for something suitable for 5 year olds and start learning.

Thal

I just thought I'd draw attention to the fact that Thal is here accusing pianistimo of sin; now that really is quite a turn-up for the books, no?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Believe it or not, I started doubting the veracity of science textbooks in particular in HS.  Why should college ones be any better.  Have you ever compared (within HS and college textbooks) texts to see if they actually match up what they are saying.  Nowdays - i think textbook writers are realizing this and attempt to match dates by picking one source.  But, with carbon-14 dating - it can only go back a certain number of years accurately - and after that - your guess is as good as mine.  That is because we don't know the conditions that rock or whatever has been through - and the premise it started upon.  Some say that the initial amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere really determines numbers, too.

Also, how many supposed 'dinosaurs' are actually animals that fossilized and we (as laypeople) do not recognize the skeleton quickly.  Try looking at the skeleton (when they uncover it finally - and of course add missing bones ?!) of the recent 'hadrasaurus' that was found in south Dakota to a typical Tapir.  In fact, possibly a BABY tapir.  And, then you'll see that their comments about 'oh, this animal had a really big butt' - is not atypical of tapirs.  It 's just amazing how much people believe without really being able to EXAMINE the evidence before it is tampered with.  And, sometimes added to.  Another thing is that they called the fossil 10,000 lbs or so - but that was with the rock that was around it - plus whatever compound they surround the blocks with.  Why don't they say what they mean?  They are preserving a skeleton that doesn't weigh much at all.

[ahinton]

Believe it or not, I started doubting the veracity of science textbooks in particular in HS.  Why should college ones be any better.  Have you ever compared (within HS and college textbooks) texts to see if they actually match up what they are saying.  Nowdays - i think textbook writers are realizing this and attempt to match dates by picking one source.  But, with carbon-14 dating - it can only go back a certain number of years accurately - and after that - your guess is as good as mine.  That is because we don't know the conditions that rock or whatever has been through - and the premise it started upon.  Some say that the initial amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere really determines numbers, too.

Also, how many supposed 'dinosaurs' are actually animals that fossilized and we (as laypeople) do not recognize the skeleton quickly.  Try looking at the skeleton (when they uncover it finally - and of course add missing bones ?!) of the recent 'hadrasaurus' that was found in south Dakota to a typical Tapir.  In fact, possibly a BABY tapir.  And, then you'll see that their comments about 'oh, this animal had a really big butt' - is not atypical of tapirs.  It 's just amazing how much people believe without really being able to EXAMINE the evidence before it is tampered with.  And, sometimes added to.  Another thing is that they called the fossil 10,000 lbs or so - but that was with the rock that was around it - plus whatever compound they surround the blocks with.  Why don't they say what they mean?  They are preserving a skeleton that doesn't weigh much at all.

Look, no one in his/her right mind is claiming that every scientific text ever published is 100% correct and, if they were so correct, there'd likely be far less discoveries to make. The point at issue here, however, is that documentation of scientific discovery is at least representative of a genuine effort to account for the results of scientific research. Your problem about it seems to me to be that you have made it a victim of your determination to believe that the Bible is the "word of God" and, because it accordingly holds the key to "life, the universe and everything" (sorry, Mr Adams!), there is not even any need for most of the scientific research to be carried out and reported at all, since we all know already from that Bible that God created everything over a period of 6 days 6,000 years ago, that the earth was once almost entirely covered in water, that the awaited second coming of Jesus Christ demonstrates that people 2,000 years ago already held some of the secrets of genetic engineering that are being investigated today and all the rest of it. Never mind the Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims and the rest; the Christian God is King and has created and holds all the secrets to everything. Well, Susan, it is, of course, your prerogative to believe all that if you want to, but please try to be a little more moderate in the ways in which and the extent to which you put forward your beliefs as though they are incontrovertible and universally applicable fact.

Best,

Alistair

[term]

Thal, prove to me that the ice-age was even 10,000 years ago

Simple proof that the 6000 bible years are wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field
That's all you need to know.

Edit: Plus, if you want: click

[thalbergmad]

Believe it or not, I started doubting the veracity of science textbooks in particular in HS. 

So did i, and it is wise to doubt the veracity of everything you read and not to jump to conclusions and form hasty opinions. The difference between you and me is that i also began to doubt the veracity of the Bible as well.

This is your greatest problem. Your refusal to doubt one single word of what is a simpletons guide to history, has destroyed any chance you have of learning and developing.

I see no point in debating with someone who's mind is already made up. It is time wasting &  irritating trying to knock sense into your head.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Look now who is spastic.  (i couldn't help it)

[thalbergmad]

I am sorry if you do not like my  posts.

I have little experience in dealing with autistic adults.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Spastic, Autistic - think of another one Thal.  You seem to be the 7th grader around here.  Why don't you just stop talking to me instead of thinking that insulting people that are adults makes some kind of whooping cough difference.

[thalbergmad]

Spastic, Autistic - think of another one Thal.  You seem to be the 7th grader around here.  Why don't you just stop talking to me instead of thinking that insulting people that are adults makes some kind of whooping cough difference.

I can think of a lot more, but it is really not worth the effort on oxygen theives.

I do try to ignore your demented posts, but you have on occasion taken other peoples silence as some kind of pathetic victory.

7th grader is a compliment, as you obviously never got that far.

Thal

[ahinton]

Instead of all this bitter verbal tennis-court wrangling, why don't you two (that's to say Thalbergmad and Pianistimo, in the unlikely event that anyone has still somehow managed to retain the remotest doubt as to whom I was referring to) go and make love to one another? That would surely be more than enough to make this thread topic - which, just to remind anyone who may have forgotten (i.e. almost all of us, I suspect), relates to the continuing raging of "the battle for middle earth" (wherever that is - OK, we've been told that it's just 6,000 years old but no one's actually confirmed its location) - pale into insignificance...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

go and make love to one another?

I would rather burn my eyes out with a red hot poker and shove shuttlecocks up my arse than go within 1000 miles of her.

Thal

[ahinton]

I would rather burn my eyes out with a red hot poker and shove shuttlecocks up my arse than go within 1000 miles of her.

I would really much rather you did neither of the first two things that you mention (each of which sound all too primitively Biblical - or at least would do were it not for the lack of shuttlecocks in the Holy Land in those far-off days[ there's not a single mention of those things in the Bible, as you are no doubt already well aware), but I would remind you that going within 1,000 miles of Pianistimo might entail your getting very wet, unless you had overshot Pennsylvania and gone that distance too far to the west thereof...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

St Kilda was close enough on reflection.

About 3200 miles?

Thal

[pianistimo]

Considering that I am married - he can just go ahead with the shuttlecock thing.  I'd hate to see him on a good day - or,  make that - a bad day. 

[ahinton]

Considering that I am married

Well, as a matter of fact, I wasn't actually considering that until you mentioned it, but how many times is it that you have confirmed your marital state on here now? It must be at least forty or fifty, I should think!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

I would daresay three times.  I use it like a firewall.

[thalberg]

I did not know what a shuttlecock was until just now.  I looked them up on the internet.  In America we call them birdies.

(Why do I even read this thread?  I need to get a life)

[gerry]

Yes, as you can see by the shape, easily inserted, but difficult and probably painful to remove

[ahinton]

I would daresay three times.

It seems more like seventy times seven to me (although I do realise that it's not than many).

I use it like a firewall.

How does that work and against whom or what does it protect you? Is it compatible with Norton 360? Can I install it on my PC or is it Mac only?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Yes, as you can see by the shape, easily inserted, but difficult and probably painful to remove

Now that really isn't a nice way to write about pianistimo! You weren't? OK - you must momentarily have forgotten the thread topic, then...

Best,

Alistair

[gerry]

I would rather burn my eyes out with a red hot poker and shove shuttlecocks up my arse than go within 1000 miles of her.

Thal

Considering that I am married - he can just go ahead with the shuttlecock thing.  I'd hate to see him on a good day - or,  make that - a bad day. 

I did not know what a shuttlecock was until just now.  I looked them up on the internet.  In America we call them birdies.

Yes, as you can see by the shape, easily inserted, but difficult and probably painful to remove

As you can see, it was nothing personal - just commenting on the suggested (b)anal use of such an object.

[pianistimo]

It was his idea, not mine.

Seriously, I have no problems with Thal - in fact, he's true enough to his feelings (despite them being much different than mine in some - or most ways).  I don't think people want to fight with him as much as he imagines them to.  But, reality just isn't that everyone agrees 100% with all your ideas - so i think he should accept that and move on.  Apparrently, he has for now. 

[jlh]

It seems more like seventy times seven to me (although I do realise that it's not than many).

Considering I have a jury in 2 days and finals happening this week, I definitely have time to kill. For those who care:

70 x 7 = 490

# of times pianistimo refers to the fact she's 'married': 80

# of times pianistimo refers to her 'marriage': 15

# of times pianistimo refers to her 'husband': at least 440 times

# of times pianistimo refers to her 'hubby': at least 100 times

= at least 635 times

pianistimo I'd be willing to bet most people know you're married by now. 

[pianistimo]

This isn't a legal case, you know.  Anyways, i don't go in the chat room - so it's not like i'm asking for trouble.  And, I don't believe that Santa knows if we've been bad or good anyways - although i'm sure God does.  Don't you ever wonder why Santa has people sit in his lap when he asks them that question?

JLH - how are you?  With 'finals happening this week' - don't you think about studying or are you pretty much ready for anything at this point?  I must have been a bad studier at uni because cramming up to the last minute was my style.  Mental gymnastics - three possible essays and be able to write on all three but knowing only one would be chosen.  I happen to love writing - but whew - that was probably the hardest test I've ever had because many facts had to be in each one.

Are you also doing performance and getting ready to play, too?

 

[ahinton]

This isn't a legal case, you know.

I'm unaware that anyone has suggested that it is one; however, congratulations are surely due for the diligence with which the research has been carried out to prove the point I was making - which indeed it does most amply.

Anyways, i don't go in the chat room - so it's not like i'm asking for trouble.

That has nothing to do with the issue; the citations referred to are written ones in your posts.

And, I don't believe that Santa knows if we've been bad or good anyways - although i'm sure God does.  Don't you ever wonder why Santa has people sit in his lap when he asks them that question?

What's that got to do with the subject? You wouldn't be trying to avoid the subject, would you?! I imagine that even God, who (as far as I am aware) is not a forum member, knows that you are married (please don't answer that, Susan!)...

Mental gymnastics

Yes, you're good at those!

- three possible thesis and be able to write on all three but knowing only one would be chosen.

Ah - a new meaning for "the chosen one"...

I happen to love writing

You don't say?!...

but whew

I admit that this is how I respond to some of the more fatuous of your posts...

that was probably the hardest test I've ever had because many facts had to be in each one.

Now I can understand that, since your grip on fact, fantasy and unproven and incomplete research and the differences between them leaves quite a lot to be desired.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

You make me want to get out my essay and prove to you that it was somehow 'worthy' and factual.  Although, it does seem that would be protesting too much.  However, I do remember comparing Haydn's Creation to Beethoven's Eroica Symphony - and being able to coherently explain how they were both innovaters of a 'new way.'

Was that last question directed at me or JLH?  Just wondering. 

[ahinton]

You make me want to get out my essay and prove to you that it was somehow 'worthy' and factual.  Although, it does seem that would be protesting too much.  However, I do remember comparing Haydn's Creation to Beethoven's Eroica Symphony - and being able to coherently explain how they were both innovaters of a 'new way.'

I wouldn't mind seeing that, if only for the purpose of observing how you compared creationism with heroism...

Was that last question directed at me or JLH?  Just wondering.

It was left over from a previous quotation by mistake - my mistake, that is. Sorry for the confusion!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Oh.  What the heck.  Here it is:

The question:  How Does Haydn's oratorio 'The Creation' and Beethoven's Symphony in E-flat Major (Eroica) fit into the world of the classic style of the late eighteenth century only with some discomfort.  Please address aesthetic, musical, and emotional elements of these two works that seem to be at odds with the traditions generally associated with the aesthetics and music of the classical era based on the concepts explored as part of this seminar.  Please illustrate and support your answers with references to specific musical situations in the two compositions cited above.

OK.  I can't remember if this is my essay or practice essay - but, here is what I have:

'In the eighteenth century, the aesthetic determinations were first made by royal patrons and their courtiers.  The monarchy and the church determined what would be pleasing for entertainment and what would be proper for liturgies.  Classical composers strove to create a balance between emotion and intellect.  Baroque music is more intellectual.  While JS Bach was composing his masterpiece 'The Art of the Fugue,' his sons were composing symphonies in the eary Classical style.  This style could be said to have a clear homophonic texture, stress emotional restraint, perfect forms, and balance of quick-changing dynamics.  Classical music has uncomplicated, clear singable melodies that are supported by chords.  It ihas a much heavier orchestral sound than Baroque orchestration, but the homophonic texture is lighter than the heavy polyphony of the Baroque era.  Classicism is based on the artistic principles of the ancient Greeks and romans, emphasizing and idealizing beauty, clarity, simplicity, and balance,  Compositions contain a very well defined sense of proportion.  The dramatic changes in dynamics came from the fact that as the harpsichord was replaced by the fortepiano,the possibilities of changing dynamics added something new to classical composition.


Franz Joseph Haydn (1732-1809) was born into the classical era and was greatly responsible for the invention and refinement of sonata form in the classical period.  While he worked for the aristocracy (Prince Nicolaus Esterhazy) he perfected much and was given the title 'father of the orchestra,' 'father of the string quartet,' and 'father of the symphony.'  The Esterhazy princes allowed him to compose a vast amount of music.  It shows a very solid structure - but always with some sort of innovation.  He wrote symphonies at first for twice-weekly concerts.  They were works for the instrument played by the prince (the baryton - a kind of viol for which he wrote trios).  Also, he wrote cantatas, and church music.  In 1790, Nicolaus Esterhazy's grandson was his patron.  His main duty then was to produce masses for the princess name-day.  He wrote six masses and strengthened his symphonic technique.  Other late works are the string quartets.  but, the most important work created after visiting London was his oratorio 'The Creation.'  He made this work with massive choral writing in the style of Handel (whom he had heard in London on a visit) and because it was NOT a commissioned work by the Esterhazy's but rather a benefit for himself through Johann Peter Salomon - who had a series in London that promoted Haydn's works - he worked on the oratorio at his own speed.  He spent all of 1797 and part of 1798 composing 'The Creation.'  The premier was held at the Buretheater and all expenses were assumed by Baron von Swieten.  Napoleon barely escaped an assassination attempt on his way to the premier in Paris in 1800.

(OK - This beginning part is mostly facts and I can't remember if some is dictated - but the next part is my own entirely)

[pianistimo]

Haydn wrote many sketches for this work and  many do not match the final product.  Baron von Swieten often added his own ideas to the libretto, as to what should be done musically.  Some of the suggestions were accepted and some were not.  Haydn did try to match the text with the moods of his music and was adept at using tone-painting to describe the tempestuous state of the earth before it was fully created in order.  The depiction of chaos begins with the angel Raphael's recitative recounting howling winds, storm, and fire - then driven clouds ...lightening...thunder...gentle rain...hail...snow...billows of sea..and finaly the sun and the moon.  The musical depiction of Chaos is very much like Beethoven's opening in the Eroica.  There is much chromatic disunity, formal disunity, and a lengthening of ideas according to a preconceived idea of what something 'should sound like' by matching the music to a text or idea.  This was involving more emotion in music than previously allowed, and forced the music to fit the text or the idea of the piece rather than the music fitting the form only.

Haydn extended the forms to mean whatever they needed to.  There are no precise forms in Haydn's Creation.  Only close approximations.  Choruses mark off units of the Creation by singing at the end of each day.  There is a lengthy coda which reiterates all of the Creation (part III) and is similar to the reiteration of themes in a fugato style of the theme and variations in the fourth movement of the Eroica.  You think you are sticking with a sort of a a1 b b1 form until you start reaching longer and longer phrases and then the fugato section.  So, in effect, Beethoven and Haydn started going with feeling and emotion rather than form alone.  They decided what would be important and what would be unimportant in the form and manipulated it to their liking.  Phrases became extended by use of chromaticism, new melodies interspursed with old, varying rhythms, inverting fugal themes, rearranging themes, using motives and elongating them.  Haydn had a similar propensity to use the neopolitan sixth as starting points for various places in his representation of Chaos much as Beethoven used the German augmented sixth many times in the first movement of the Eroica.  Other similarities would be that in many places there is no normal resolution of harmonies, no leading tones, lack of regular pulse, and motives sprinkled throughout.   

[pianistimo]

'Organic' is a term that comes to mind when describing these two compositions and their method.  The first movement of the Eroica opens with the chords of Eb major - but we are not sure about the key, just as in the opening of the Creation with Chaos.  There is no clear key established.  The tonality is not defined or even preserved.  Normal long melodic phrases are absent.  In it's place are short four bar motives.  Rhythmic definition is absent and the subdivision of time is often changed.  This is much the same with the 'Chaos' opening of Haydn.  Finally, at measure 15 of the Eroica, the tonality of Eb Major is established.  No sooner than it is established, a modulation takes place and there is much contrast and tension in the modifications and the meter undergoes change in measures 23-35. 

[pianistimo]

The Eroica has similarities also with the Creation in the fact that the form belies a discursive, narriative, temporal drama.  A sort of theatrical drama.  The characters undergo a profound experience and can never be the same again.  Theis creates an opposition within the structure of the sonata form - similar to the constant opposition of a sort of 'fate' in the Creation - premonized by the duet 'by Thee with Bliss' which foretells a time when Eve would be alone and succumb to the temptations of the tree of good and evil. The recapitulations of the first movement of the Erioca and the whole of the Creation are also similar in that they restate material already heard and manipulate it as necessary to formalize balance of form, time, and space.  They are quite long, and in the Eroica restate everything previously heard in the coda.  Adjusting these two elements creates a problem of extreme complexity and ultimately the destruction of the sonata principle.

Beethoven's Heiligenstadt Testament marks a watershed in the creative life of Beethoven - and shortly after his dispair at learning of his hearing loss - he begins to carry out this resolve in his work on the Eroica symphony of 1802.  He wrote his testament October 6, 1802 - so you can see the proximity of his 'new way' to his compositions from that period.  His self-pity turns into acceptance of his situation and the assumption of the burdens of life.  He doesn't lose 'love for humanity and desire to do good.'  He siezes 'fate by the throat' and in art and life is committed to involvement.  But, much like the Creation - it is as if his life is also guided to create works of art that induce thought and wonder at the powers that are beyond us.  That we are 'players on a stage.'  To describe the human condition.  To be as Shakespeare was and recreate heroic moments or describe history as it is being made or how we imagine it could be made.  Beethoven, through all this decided to assess the sonata principle and make the recapitulation dependent upon the exposition.  The first movement of the Eroica reconciles the formal, spatial requirements of the sonata.... (and this is where i am missing pages)  I think I have more - but this is probably quite enough.

[pianistimo]

If there is one thing I would add now to this essay - it would be Beethoven's introduction of the unusual instrument, the oboe, in the fourth movement of the Eroica much like the introduction of the oboe right before the duet 'By Thee with Bliss' in Haydn's Creation.  The oboe in the Creation represented a most distinctive feature to express the sounds of the nightingale.  In those times, a nightingale was both a forebearer of love and pain.  They sing of the bliss of innocence and creation, and yet, when you read the full text of Milton's - you see that Milton believed that Satan was cast down to earth and roaming about even before the fall.  He may also be the wind background foreshadowing an uneasy sound (as Milton describes him as tortured by seeing their bliss) and calls it 'sight hateful, sight tormenting!'  Thus, these two imparadised in one another's arms, the happier Eden, shall enjoy their fill of bliss on bliss:  while I to hell am thrust, where neither joy nor love...(and he goes on to hatch his evil plan whilst sitting in the tree of knowledge). 

Anyways, this little duet is in Sonatina form with the adagio section in C major, then followed by an allegretto in F major, and moves to C major again.  The choice of key is happy and blissful.  The allegretto is in rondo form.  when it moves back to the key of C, it begins a long coda in which the text shifts from the world to God.  If I remember right, the shift also introduces the bassoons and bass trombones which are not used in the opening of the Creation, but are brought in to play at the duet.  In bar 83, the bass trombone doubles the contrabassoon. 

I have to look at the orchestration of the Eroica again - but this adding of instruments at the end seems to give the finality to the last movement much like the 'storm and stress' of the changing tides of 'fate' in the Creation.  Although, Beethoven would likely use 'fate' and Haydn the term 'fall.' 

I forgot to say that an author by the name of Barry Cooper, whom i read when creating this paper, says that 'throughout the 18th century the aristotelian doctrine of art as the imitation of nature was paramount, particularly in French aesthetic writings.  That music was less capable of such imitation than, say, painting led to the alternative idea that it was well suited to expressing the passions or emotions, and likewise could arouse similar emotions in the hearer....'  If I were to continue writing this paper - I'd also say something about this 'doctrine of expression.'  Obviously, it becomes clearer that Beethoven and Haydn were expressing personal feelings and ideas within a 'safe' context of something impersonal to them - but widely understood and known by the theme's generalities to have most people on the planet understand and sympathize or feel the same feelings.  That is why I most compare Beethoven with Shakespeare.  'Kant's position in 1790 was far more equivocal: while he considered that of all the arts music was the closest to poetry and even that it 'moves us in more ways and with greater intensity than poetry does', he also felt that 'music is least amongst the fine arts, because it plays merely with the emotions....'  The Romantic view was quite different, according to Cooper, ideals of 'universality, rationality, and clarity yielded to a way of thinking that placed the highest value on 'individuality, irrationality, and obscurity.  In place of the belief that absolute truth and knowledge were attainable came the opposite belief, that these concepts could never be attained.'  From this, I deduce that both Haydn and Beethoven had one foot planted in both the Classical and Romantic era.  They were some of the later composers that saw the benefits of both order and disorder and put them together in a Romantic way but expressed by the ideas or dialogue that they chose -very Classical ideals. 

ps Beethoven's 'Fidelio' expresses this idealism that sprang from the history of the time.  Cooper says 'with the defeat of Napoleon the spotlight of Europe fell on Vienna, after Metternich announced that the peace congress would convene there on 14 Auguest 1814.  It was to last nearly a year, during which time the Viennese played host to some 10,000 foreigners, amongst them dignitaries of Europe and their entourages.  Vienna rapidly resumed its role as a city of lavish entertainment.  There was a prolonged carnival atmosphere as balls, receptions, firework displays and concerts were organized to impress the international gathering.  As a leading composer, Beethoven figured prominently.  He was asked to compose suitable pieces, the best known being the cantata 'Der glorrieche Augenblick, which exhorted Vienna to rise to the occasion and honour the assembled potentates.  His opera Fidelio was the first to be performed during this period; each of its twenty repeats was greeted enthusiastically by full houses , and he was much honored and feted.'

[pianistimo]

Since this is a battle for middle-earth - I may as well continue here.  I was introduced to some good stuff and probably my instructor thinks I forgot it - so I can't forget to mention 'Sturm und Drang.'  A little out of context - but truly - I didn't forget.  And, he had the kindness to introduce us to whom he thought were some of the best writers on the subject.  So, I still have the article by R. Larry Todd on this effect and participation of Haydn in the concept - even if he was unawares.  And, the connection that our teacher drummed into our heads that Haydn had with CPE Bach.  It was CPE who was the most plausible source for Haydn of 'the erratic mannerisms' of composition.  Haydn most probably used some of the ideas of his symphonic writing in the writing of the oratorio 'the Creation.'  (I know I should be italicizing and all -but I haven't the time and this isn't the paper). 

Haydn's Symphony no 39 gets some progressive treatment of orchestration and dynamics.  We see in 'the Creation' the fulfillment of these wide disjointed treatments and sudden dynamic changes.  It seems so 'natural' and yet Hadyn had methods to his madness.  Todd points them out as 'articulation of phrase structure, a novel example of orchestral nuances and a freer use of disjunct motion.'  The first sixteen bars of Symphony #39 subdivide according to the following scheme: 4 (2+2) then 6 (4 (2+2) and 4 (2+2).  Haydn has symmetrically flanked a six-measure phrase by two identical four-measure phrases.  He hones this type of thing to perfection in 'the Creation.'  Also, by his astute learnedness of how to use rests similarly - as an interruption of ideas and to create diversions.  I have learned that the best composers know how to use rests as well as notes to their most striking effects.

Haydn's Symphony no 59 (in A minor - minor keys being important to Sturm und Drang) - also has a 'savage rhythmic vitality, sudden dynamic contrasts, and disjunct melodic motion.'  He does something unusual with the beginning of this symphony by the discontinuity of the opening - expressive of somekind of understanding of the turmoil of the age and a sort of 'birth' into the next one by musical pangs.  I find it really amazing that Haydn used this so effectively and yet is still considered basically a Classical composer.  Even, though forms are completely turned on their heads they still sound classical.

[general disarray]

Phew.     Those posts are quite something, pianistimo.

If you refuse to be the new C.S. Lewis (the famous Christian apologist) -- and, by the way, his science fiction was really Christian allegory -- then you should consider being the new Lenny Bernstein.  He was a great teacher among a million other virtues.

(Lenny, I miss you.)

[ahinton]

Phew.     Those posts are quite something, pianistimo.

If you refuse to be the new C.S. Lewis (the famous Christian apologist) -- and, by the way, his science fiction was really Christian allegory

Susan doesn't like allegories; didn't you know?!

-- then you should consider being the new Lenny Bernstein.  He was a great teacher among a million other virtues.

With all due respect to Pianistimo, asking her to consider being the next Bernstein is about as hopeless as asking me to be the next Shostakovich!

(Lenny, I miss you.)

Mr Bernstein happened to deplore being called "Lenny" by people who did not actually know him personally, but which of us doesn't miss him?

Best,

Alistair