Where do I proceed to next?

[rogercacv]

I am 59 years old and have been playing the piano as a hobby for the last 4 years. I practice 2 hours a day and play for my enjoyment for an hour a day. I have reasonably learned all of Bach's 2 part inventions. I am into learning his 3 part inventions. I also have learned Mozart Sonata's K330, K332, and several Haydn sonata's.  For exercises i have played Hanon and can  play all of the book one exercises in all Keys at a fairly reasonable tempo and enough under control so that I can control my touch and play either pianissimo or forte.  I play all Major, Melodic and harmonic scales  for 4 octaves , plus playing them in 3rd sixths and 10ths and contrary motion. My arpegio work approximates the same level as my scale playing.  I have used various composers to try and develope a singing touch in my studies. My memory is not that good and my sight reading is still not what I would like it to be.

My question is where do I go from here. I would like to continue to advance, but only so  far as where I can still present a nice artistic under control interpertaion of the piece that i am playing. I am in no hurry to advance or take short cuts. I want to build on a strong foundation one step at a time. And yes I would love to reach the pinacle of the classical repetoire, but I am under no illusions on that score.  I will not play a piece beyond my ability to make a fine presentation on it.

So thats it. I think I have made some good progress , but am not sure where to proceed next. I have thought some of the earlier Beethoven Sonata's and perhaps some of the Chopin Waltz's.  Any advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.

[pianogeek_cz]

Wow. Kudos to your self-discipline.

I think the next step is, indeed, going for the later periods - romantic, impressionism, modern music. These (as you are, no doubt, well aware) offer quite a different set of figurations and movements to be mastered - logically following those presented in the earlier repertoire.

With such a technical/repertoire foundation, I wouldn't be scared of perhaps slowly touching a Chopin etude, I think it shouldn't take you unreasonably long to learn. (10/12, 25/2, 25/1 or 10/9 are the usual starting points; I'm sure there are people on this forum to provide more in-depth information, there's also the very handy search function and a recent thread about them with a nice brief synopsis of what each one of them contains as the main challenges.) Plus it's a great piece of music at the same time, as compared to the Hanon.

Exiting the etudes department, you might want to explore Schubert's Impromptus (op. 90 no. 3 is rather awesome, and pretty much all of them are veeeery nice, though they do have a few bugger-it technical points) and Momens Musicaux, Schumann's Kinderszenen are also great (and, in terms of difficulty, perhaps easier than the Mozarts); especially Schubert is a transition from the classical to the romantic periods.

As far as Chopin/Liszt/etc. goes, yes, Chopin Waltzes and possibly Mazurkas are good access points to the larger-scale works (but especially some of the Mazurkas are damn difficult).

If you wanted to do some impressionism, then I'd suggest Debussy's Children's Corner. Not hard and the Mozart training will come in very handy in Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum. Plus there's this jazzy piece in there, too...

From the modern stuff, Prokofiev Fugitive Visions have a lot to them and they're mostly reasonably easy, although some boast rather fiendish tricks. And an awesome set are Shostakovich's three Fantastic Dances.

Of course, this is just a very small selection, pretty much the standard repertoire at roughly the difficulty level of the Mozarts and slightly above from the later periods (the suggestions are rather conservative in that respect) - the things that get played a lot and are famous and whatnot. There's a great number of not-as-explored composers, but I must say I do have quite a gaping hole in my education in that department... I'm sure others will have more to say about this.

Anyway, good luck with playing and all, and again, I admire your disciplined and consistent approach... I wish I worked like that

[gyzzzmo]

I've been in pretty much the same position as you are in now. I can only tell what i did. I dont know if it works for you, but it made me a grade 9 pianist.

I used the Chopin etudes for technical training (and after some years i was able to actually finish most of them). These etudes are fun to play (important for a self-thaught) and IF 'trained' well, provide excellent technique. I used the Lugansky Chopin etudes cd to keep me motivated.
Tips if you want to try it my way:
- Be patient and very carefull. Never rush. If your brains get used to mistakes or other flaws, it will be hard to relearn it.
- Dont expect that you can play a certain etude as well as you want to in the coming year(s)
- Dont focus too much on 1 etude. Although most etudes are pretty much based on a couple of fingers/moves, you need a pretty wide range of great technique to finish it. (Thats why chopin etudes are better to train on than for example Liszt transcedental etudes, wich need much broader range of technique.)
- If you want to focus on something anyway, focus on the pieces you study next to the etudes.

Etudes i find most important (technically seen):

Opus 10 no2. for training of those stubborn fingers 4 and 5 of your right hand.
Op. 10 no7. stretch that hand!
Op. 10 no9 or 12.  To get that left hand better.
Op.25 no6. Thirds, and extra training of fingers 4 and 5 of the right hand.


Less important etudes:
op10 no1 and 25 no4. Get better at jumping chords and grabbing further notes more easily
op10 no3: pedalling
op.25 no10. Octave training.
op.25 no8. fifths training

I think that the rest of the etudes are of less importance (technically seen). Theyre less specific to elemental technical difficulties.

Good luck in getter better,
gyzzzmo

[slobone]

Wow, I don't know... I admit I've never tried to learn the Chopin Etudes (except Op 10 # 1), but that sounds like an awfully big jump to me from Bach 3 Part Inventions!

But I would agree that Chopin is a great place to start. Many of his pieces have a low difficulty/greatness ratio, and most of them are short, so you won't get bogged down. Some of the Preludes, mazurkas, nocturnes and waltzes are good for beginners.

Be careful with Schubert. Chopin is often a lot easier than he sounds, but the reverse tends to be true for Schubert.

Schumann's Album for the Young is a good introduction to that composer. For modern music check out Bartok's Mikrokosmos, specifically designed for students. Start with Book I and work your way through.

I support 100% your idea of only learning pieces that you have some chance of playing well. Easy pieces by great composers can be very rewarding. If you tackle a piece that's too hard for you, you'll spend all your time learning the notes and never get to make music....

[gyzzzmo]

Wow, I don't know... I admit I've never tried to learn the Chopin Etudes (except Op 10 # 1), but that sounds like an awfully big jump to me from Bach 3 Part Inventions!

But I would agree that Chopin is a great place to start. Many of his pieces have a low difficulty/greatness ratio, and most of them are short, so you won't get bogged down. Some of the Preludes, mazurkas, nocturnes and waltzes are good for beginners.

Be careful with Schubert. Chopin is often a lot easier than he sounds, but the reverse tends to be true for Schubert.

Schumann's Album for the Young is a good introduction to that composer. For modern music check out Bartok's Mikrokosmos, specifically designed for students. Start with Book I and work your way through.

I support 100% your idea of only learning pieces that you have some chance of playing well. Easy pieces by great composers can be very rewarding. If you tackle a piece that's too hard for you, you'll spend all your time learning the notes and never get to make music....

Cant say i agree with you here  , also i think you didnt get my point. I mentioned the chopin etudes for getting your technique better, not for being able to finish them (at least not within a year). So its not about difficulty of certain etudes, its about training fingers/moves.

I dont agree with your schubert/chopin remark either im affraid :p. Schubert pieces have usually the same technical difficulty through a piece. Chopin however often has technical difficulty peaks wich makes them harder to get them 'performance-ready'.

About your 5th alinea... youre probably not supprised i dont agree there either, at least not with the chopin etudes. For me the chopin etudes were so ideal because i liked to play them also at low speed. Thats ideal because youre having fun in playing, AND increasing technique on a very effective way.

[robertp]

I vote for Chopin Etudes.

A few years ago I was approximately in your position. And I started 25.12. I got into it because my arpeggios were pretty good, and I wanted to make them better. It certainly did that. But not just that. I found my sight reading took a serious turn for the better. I finall got comfortable playing at high speed for more than a page. So I personally wouldn't write off an etude because it seems to be about one technical issue that you don't have or care to work on right now. Any of them will deal with their immediate issue, but give you a whole lot more. I've found the same thing with 10.4.

A couple of caveats. Don't expect to do an etude in a year, but don't expect to be on it forever either. Don't make the etude your sole focus -- have some other pieces going, at least one of which is less...formidable. And the biggest point is don't try to do it alone. Even if you opt not to do an etude. For me, having a good teacher made all the difference, not only in the etudes, but in everything else I was doing. The result is that I'm finding myself playing pieces I would have never dreamed I could play, and playing better than I ever thought I could play.

[chopinfan_22]

If you want my opinion (and keep in mind to take it with a grain of salt, because as far as playing ability, etc., it seems I'm quite far behind you), but what I would suggest is what others have said.

Delve into one of the Chopin etudes. Sight read a few measures of each, and see if you can find one that you would be able to play. As far as other pieces by chopin, I would recommend the following:

Preludes: 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 13, 15, or 20. If you want arpeggio work, take a look at 23 (I think).
Nocturnes: 9.2, 55.1, 72, Op.Post in C# Minor, or Op.Post in C Minor
Waltzes: 34.2, Op. 64, Op. 69

As far as Schubert... I'm not too familiar with his compositions, but I would say some of his impromptus. The one that immediately comes to mind is 90.3.

Schumann... Album for the Young, as has been stated previously.

Debussy... Children's Corner, also stated previously. Maybe his Deux Arabasques No. 1.


These are just my thoughts. But as you can plainly see... there are quite a few Chopin pieces that you could try.