Would the world have been better without religion? or even Ban it?

[gyzzzmo]

Bluntly said, its a fact that the consequenses religion have caused an incredibly amount of death around the world. Its the number 1 thread of 'world peace', especially with the asian islam fundamentalists and the christian fundamentalism wich is intervening with USA politics(!).
Other people think religion gives hope, but is that tiny advantage even abit defendable vs all the suffering religion is causing?
Should we ban religion to safe the world?

Ofcourse this is purely hypothetical, but interesting to discuss i think

Fire away!

[franz_]

Due to religion the human being made some wunderfull things. Like beautiful churches, paintings,...  It is not bad to believe in something, but you don't have to obligate other people to believe in the same thing.

I'am atheist by the way 

[gyzzzmo]

Wich is the problem... Too many religions say nonbelievers are bad instead of just accepting that everybody should be allowed to have his own opinion.
And even churches, as beautiful as some are, have their stories too. Often they were build with good old slavery and where did the money come from? (or where should it have been spend on?).

[klavierkonzerte]

why would the world be better without religion?

religion teaches us to be good to our parents, nighbors and people in general, it gives us hope and teaches us wonderfull teachings and principals, what's wrong with that?
the problem is with extreem religious persons who actually know nothing about religion and gives religions bad a picture and belive me the world would be much worst if there were no religion.

i'm actually a very religious person yet very open minded and i think religion is a nice frame to our lives if practised the way it's intended to be after all god brought it to us.

[mephisto]

But isn't it perfectly natural to be both an atehist at the same time as you behave nicely towards you parents etc?

[klavierkonzerte]

yes they can but there's more to religion than that.

[gyzzzmo]

why would the world be better without religion?

religion teaches us to be good to our parents, nighbors and people in general, it gives us hope and teaches us wonderfull teachings and principals, what's wrong with that?
the problem is with extreem religious persons who actually know nothing about religion and gives religions bad a picture and belive me the world would be much worst if there were no religion.

i'm actually a very religious person yet very open minded and i think religion is a nice frame to our lives if practised the way it's intended to be after all god brought it to us.

Our parents teach us to behave, ive seen enough very religious people with awfull kids to be sure of that.
But i agree though about the possitive things some religious books teach, but in your reply you pretty much ignored all the bad things wich come from religion. By far most massacres had to do with religion (directly because they just kill each other because of other religions, or indirectly because people misuse religion to gather a big group of people).
The possitive effects (as you point them out) are discussionable, although the bad effects are easy to name and proof. Still people seem to completely ignore them...
Wouldnt a 'new' Jesus or Mohammed try to ban all religion in the world because people arent able to handle religion in combination with power?


gyzzzmo

[thierry13]

why would the world be better without religion?

religion teaches us to be good to our parents, nighbors and people in general, it gives us hope and teaches us wonderfull teachings and principals, what's wrong with that?
the problem is with extreem religious persons who actually know nothing about religion and gives religions bad a picture and belive me the world would be much worst if there were no religion.

i'm actually a very religious person yet very open minded and i think religion is a nice frame to our lives if practised the way it's intended to be after all god brought it to us.

Religious people are not in ANY way better people. By not believing, normal people are just basically better person, even with religious standards. If you really need religion to have hope or w/e ... just do NOT piss off the rest of the population for your stupid way of life. Bible is a age 5 and less (dangerous) moral funbook, that's it that's all. And EVEN if everything in the Bible was written by god or w/e you all believe, I think you better just do not care and just live your life as a normal, good person, and you will respect even the teachings way better than if you actually would directly listen to the bible, doing so is just trying too hard and you reveal yourself as a total lick-ass lesser being. Intelligent non-believing people have better teachings/principles than what's written in any sacred book... and that's a FACT.

[thalbergmad]

Bible is a age 5 and less (dangerous) moral funbook

Without a doubt the best description i have ever seen.

Thal

[prongated]

Too many religions say nonbelievers are bad instead of just accepting that everybody should be allowed to have his own opinion.

What people often don't realise is that atheism is also a form belief...just like religion.

The possitive effects (as you point them out) are discussionable, although the bad effects are easy to name and proof. Still people seem to completely ignore them...
Wouldnt a 'new' Jesus or Mohammed try to ban all religion in the world because people arent able to handle religion in combination with power?

I think therefore that religion in itself is not necessarily dangerous...the problem is with how people perceive religion...people not knowing what they actually believe in...people not knowing why they believe in something...people who accept their spoon-fed "knowledge" from religious leaders without fully understanding the consequences.

[chopininov]

Does anyone else find Mormons funny?

[leonidas]

Religion appears to be an intrinsic part of the human condition.

Most organised religions take liberties and attempt to answer all the unanswerable questions, they have to be gradually phased out because of the basic and blatant fact that they are manmade constructs and have only a superficial bearing on true personal spirituality.

Banning religion would be worse than anything, the increasingly obvious answer is to learn tolerance, freedom, and understanding, love thy neighbour.

[thalbergmad]

love thy neighbour.

Indeed i do, she is well fit.

Thal

[thalberg]

Religion cannot be banned.  Humans are spiritual beings, and you cannot repress their spiritual side any more than you can repress their artistic side.  What if you banned art?  People would still make it.  It's part of who we are. 

[gilad]

Religion was the natural progression of man. A scientific hypthesis begging to be proven or disproven. Nothing more nothing less.

End of the day it is now a choice. At times it was not. Religion is, but it is no longer all.

Of course that my opinion on it. not all religions piss me off, and even the ones that do, they dont piss me off all the time.

[gyzzzmo]

What people often don't realise is that atheism is also a form belief...just like religion.

I think therefore that religion in itself is not necessarily dangerous...the problem is with how people perceive religion...people not knowing what they actually believe in...people not knowing why they believe in something...people who accept their spoon-fed "knowledge" from religious leaders without fully understanding the consequences.

About that first thing, i dont agree :p Religion is a believe in things people cant find proof for, but are convinced somehow its there anyway. Atheism is the acceptation that we dont know everything but dont want to use a god as sollution. (at least, to my opinion ).

Your second thing, i do agree . But the nasty thing about religion is that it is a great tool for people to get things done like they want. Bribe a priest and say nasty things about turkish (heathen) people in Jerusalem.. voila, you got yourself an army (and loot). Same wich mr bin laden did.

[wotgoplunk]

I refuse to partake any further in the discussion after this, but my opinion is as follows:

Yes, it would be better without certain aspects of religion. For example all the gay-hate by Islam and Christianity. The core ideas of the religion are all well and good. Just it's the fundies (fundamentalists) that are bad. If we were all Jains or Buddhists, I think it would be an even better world. So I would say religion is good in moderation.

Even if the vast majority are wrong. 

[soliloquy]

The problem isn't religion unto itself.


It's the assholes that think EVERYONE needs to believe what they believe.

[ahinton]

The problem isn't religion unto itself.

It's the assholes that think EVERYONE needs to believe what they believe.

Apart from the fact that I would not personally choose to use the word "assholes" in my own argument, I second this view entirely; Sorabji used to say that fascism is everyone else's idea of fascism except one's own and, in so saying, he was more or less encapsulating, I think, the kind of thing that you are stating here about religion - he also used to quote Landowska's claim that, while some people played their Bach, she sought to play Bach's Bach - a not dissimilar thing, methinks...

In the light of this, what I would say is that one should, for example, never seek to blame Christ for the behaviour of certain "Christians"...

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

im curious about pianistimo's opinion about this :p...

[pianochick93]

I was going to say, did whoever started this thread (I can't remember) wait until Pianistimo had disappeared until they started it?

My views on the matter, I think religion has played a large part in history, and peoples morals and views on the world. Some parts of religion could be done withoutm like the gay couples thing, but overall it is not up to anyone to decide whether or not religion is acceptable. It is a personal belief thing, and no one wants their personal beliefs taken away. How would you feel if you believed strongly in no death penalties, and someone told you that you weren't allowed to believe that because it let people that harm the world live?

I think the religious believers should be left alone. (In the sense that we should stop paying them out, not that we should physically leave them alone). I am sure that the good in religion in general outweighs the bad. It isn't fair to discriminate against Muslims because a bunch of extremists have gone around terrorising people. That is their interpretation of the religion, and though it is not "right" in the eyes of the rest of us, it also isn't "right" to discriminate against all of that religion. The percentage of extremists versus non-extremists in a certain religion would be very low.

I also say back off of Pianistimo, she is just standing up for what she believes.

[gyzzzmo]

I started the topic  . I didnt wait with this until pianistimo disappeared, but i got inspired by her though, by reading Thal's 'Where is pianistimo' - thread.
And my last reply (about pianistimo) was actually mend, i am curious how somebody like her replies on a thread like this. Its not strange either that i involve her, since this thread is about religion and she's the one who starts religion discussions often.

About the rest of you reply :
 I think its not the religious believers who should be left alone, it are the non believers who should be left alone. Have you ever heard somebody preaching 'non-believing' or get people at your door who ask you Not to believe in a god? Maybe the believers are ones who are discriminating the people with other opinions.
Also you say the good of religion outweights the bad. And thats what we hear everywhere, about how good the 'hope' is, the culture, respect, the rules how to behave (and what not to do) etc.  But if you really think about it, is that true? Isnt religion often the source of hatred (and massmurder) and disrespect for other opinions?

[ahinton]

I started the topic  . I didnt wait with this until pianistimo disappeared, but i got inspired by her though, by reading Thal's 'Where is pianistimo' - thread.
And my last reply (about pianistimo) was actually mend, i am curious how somebody like her replies on a thread like this. Its not strange either that i involve her, since this thread is about religion and she's the one who starts religion discussions often.

Actually, that's not really the case; she has rarely if ever initiated such threads, preferring as she does (or is it now did?) to introduce some of her religious observations into threads that for the most part are neither about nor obviously connected to religious topics.

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

Didnt say either that she started threads, i said she started discussions. Btw, i dont really get why its wrong to be curious about pianistimo's opinion. Do you think its wrong to be curious about somebody's opinion?

[prongated]

Btw, i dont really get why its wrong to be curious about pianistimo's opinion.

...it is wrong to write that, because it means you haven't done your research. A trawl through past threads will reveal quite a bit about pianistimo already

EDIT: ooops I read it out of context. Sorry

[valor]

The world would actually be much worse without religion, in my opinion. Besides even religion were ban people would keep on beleiving, you can't stop people from believing in things. And i also think there will be no such thing as world peace.

[pianochick93]

I started the topic  . I didnt wait with this until pianistimo disappeared, but i got inspired by her though, by reading Thal's 'Where is pianistimo' - thread.
And my last reply (about pianistimo) was actually mend, i am curious how somebody like her replies on a thread like this. Its not strange either that i involve her, since this thread is about religion and she's the one who starts religion discussions often.

Please don't think I meat any offence, I certainly didn't.
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular when I said to back off of her. I was referring in general to the comments that get made every so often...

Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know pianostimo's opinion. I would love to, as a non-believer, see how the "other side" feels about this.

[gyzzzmo]

I felt free for bumping this topic because of some new insights? :p

gyzzzmo

[rc]

Does anyone else find Mormons funny?

Yes, it is an odd religion...  Borderline cult methinks. Very successful, very rich.

The world would actually be much worse without religion, in my opinion. Besides even religion were ban people would keep on beleiving, you can't stop people from believing in things. And i also think there will be no such thing as world peace.

I agree.  The only way to have world peace would be to have everyone agree on everything, what kind of world would that be?  Might as well just sit down and die.

[emill]

Well ... for about 2 billion destitute members of the
human race, religion is the only thing that keeps their
sanity.

[yuc4h]

This guy has some interesting videos in youtube

my thoughts exactly.

[bob3.1415926]

I think moderate religion as a general rule seems to improve the small picture (the life of an individual), but historically damages the big picture (crusades, etc). Also, I don't know of a good example where religion and politics have combined. I prefer them to be very separate.

Fundamentalist religion (any faith) is never a good thing in my opinion. Just as the extremes on the political compass aren't either (again my opinion).

That said, the contribution to the arts (music, paintings, sculptures, etc) that take inspiration from religion is immense. This shouldn't be overlooked.

[frigo]

If the true objective of religion was 'peace' and 'end with povert', and many other things they tell us, why does Church has in the Vatican the most unthinkable treasure that lives Bill Gates as a beggar? I never went there, but is more than obvious... Christianity, like all religions, has only one objective: wealth and power to their preachers.

However, it is a form a self ilusion made by the human been, what means that it is limiting and simultaneously essential to an human's life. I'm atheistic, so I have other forms of ilusion: love, music, art in general, science specially... I can't live without this ilusions, but I don't need to harm another people just because of my gapp of mean (that we all have).

An advice: the poetry of Fernando Pessoa, the best poet of the 20th century....

[soliloquy]

anyway, silly thread.  without religion Alexander the Great, the Crusades, WWI etc would all never have happened.  So the world would be totally different; no way to tell if it would be better or worse, because those things, if they had not happened, would have altered life soooo much it is simply outside the reach of human logical deduciveness to tell whether the world would be better.

[zheer]

 No, the world would have been worse without religion,more death and distruction.

[ahkow]

I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god thanyou do. When you understand why you dismiss all other gods, you willunderstand why I dismiss yours. - Sir Steven Henry Roberts

I agree

[teresa_b]

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."...Voltaire

I tend to agree with the above, which makes the question posed in the thread pure fantasy.  Obviously, banning religion or basing a society on atheism (as in Marxism) does not work--it has been tried. 

There are scholars such as Lionel Tiger who posit that religion may be hard-wired into the human brain.  And we can all think of many reasons it would have arisen in primitive tribes all over the world. 

Personally, I believe (yes, it's only my belief) that the world would be a better place if we could all question religion, upon which we would either end up believing, or not.  Even if we have a "God" gene, we also have genes for critical thinking that are often lying around unused. 

Teresa

[buick8]

In a careful reading of Matthew 23 Jesus excoriates those who are outwardly religious, or who appear to be religious, yet harbor all kinds of evil inside. From such is the evil which is done in the name of religion; it is wrong to blame such acts on God or true religion. Throughout the Bible there are similar warnings about true religion versus false. False religion seems to be a scourge of Mankind; we seem predisposed to it.

Even non-Christians can see that there is a difference between thosewho are truely religious and those who profess religion yet use this as a cover for or justification of doing what they want: their own evil, self-serving, worldly, unGodly deeds.

[indutrial]

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."...Voltaire

I tend to agree with the above, which makes the question posed in the thread pure fantasy.  Obviously, banning religion or basing a society on atheism (as in Marxism) does not work--it has been tried. 

Well, Marxism essentially was a religion in a different disguise than Christianity or any other faith-based belief system. Even the Enlightenment thinkers who started to deconstruct the idealism of religion were really just refocusing their religious urges towards different nodes like science and empiricism. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but that's pretty much where we're at these days. I don't think religion will ever go away. It will just change gears and appear to us in different ways. A much more learned man than myself told me that liberal ideas like "human rights" and "slavery is wrong" are no more or less abstract than ideas like the Holy Trinity. One might be more structured in society than the other, but they are both ideals that shape beliefs. As long as those ideals are fundamental to human cognition, religion per se will never evaporate.

[ramithediv]

Just ban it. 

It would save pianistimo and thalbergmad a serious amount of time. 

Perhaps they would go underground and argue by P.M.ing eachother 

[kard]

I don't know. It would certainly be different.
But what would you be substituting religion with?
Most people would just adopt some other influence to live by. As humans, we tend to latch on to other people's views. It's easier.

and as for "its the people, not the religion," I disagree.
(Christian example) Go to church. Almost any sermon somehow leads to a, "without God, the world is hopeless. Go out and save it."...Or a "Join the church, save your soul."

Most religions claim to have an 'ultimate' truth. It is this fact that leads people to develop a superior view of themselves, and worse, an inferior view of those around them. This, I believe, is what leads to all these religious problems. Most religions do not foster understanding of others or the world around us.

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps they would go underground and argue by P.M.ing eachother 

We did, but i gently persuaded her from spamming my mailbox.

The exchange was rather amusing (for me), i must find it and post it.

Thal

[ramithediv]

But what would you be substituting religion with?

The Study of "Music". 

Just joking. 

[gaest]

From a very cynical perspective, religion is nothing more than the ultimate fit-all-scenario justification.

I have no problem with religion on the individual level - believe whatever you want to believe as long as you don't impose your beliefs on me.  But organized religion is frightening in what it can accomplish.

In an uncivilized society, I think it is definitely necessary as a means of social control (e.g. morality).

In a civilized society... I can understand the basic intrinsic desire for religion deep within, but in a way it is also a hindrance to the growth of our society, particularly the worldwide society.  Many religious people seem to be too focused on the division between different humans rather than the overarching ties that bind us.  Most of them are good-hearted or good-intentioned, but completely insular.  After all, religion at its core is all about dividing the world into US and THEM, the good and the bad, the righteous and the evil, the ones who make it to heaven and the ones who don't.  Maybe that's just human nature too, but religion hardly breaks that pattern.  Sure, religion can bring people together, but only when you believe what everyone else believes, not before.  And that's not really "bringing people together," not really.

Personally, I think that religion is just fine for individuals.  If anything should be banned, it should be the organized religion structure, which even since its beginnings has always been nothing more than another power play.

Wow, I sound like a conspiracy theorist when I say that.

[kard]

The Study of "Music". 

Just joking. 

  lol

[pianochick93]

Wich is the problem... Too many religions say nonbelievers are bad instead of just accepting that everybody should be allowed to have his own opinion.

What about atheists, who say that religion is bad, insead of just accepting that people are allowed their own opinion?

[mcgillcomposer]

Due to religion the human being made some wunderfull things. Like beautiful churches, paintings,...  It is not bad to believe in something, but you don't have to obligate other people to believe in the same thing.

I'am atheist by the way 

Yes, and due to religion, millions have died, and millions are treated like 3rd class beef cows throughout the world.

[dora96]

I have been a Christian for 7 years. At first I thought all religion are same. Teaching people do good thing. However, my friend ask me to join their bible study. I have noticed that the bible says a lot of practical things, truth  about this world. In one of the thing we study about Camels and Gnats. Jesus had some harsh things to say about the religious leaders of His day. They forcused on the details of their religion and missed God's big picture. They even tithed their household spices! ( Mt 23:23). There was nothing particularly wrong with giving attention to these small matters. The problem was that they ignored the bigger issues that matter to God - justice, mercy, and faith.

Jesus called these leaders "blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" (v24). They weren't able to tell the difference between a gnat issue and a camel issue.

In his book Hey, wait a Minute! John Madden recalls legendary foot ball coach Vince Lombardi's explanation of the difference between a good coach and a poor one, Lombardi said, "The best coaches know what the end result looks like.....The bad coaches don't know what they want. The good coaches do. "Or, to say it another way, good coaches know what's important to order to win, and they purse those priorities. They have the big picture in mind.

Success in the Chrsitian life is much the same. We must be aware of God's camel issues" - Justice and mercy and faith. Then we must put them into practice, asking each day for the Holy Spirit's help . Let' s not waste our lives on gnats.

You know my friend told me his neighbour had a washing machine, there was nothing wrong about it. But just little bit old style. His wife and he put it outside their garage with the sign " WORKs and FREE". They hoped that someone will make use of it. After two weeks, the washing machine was still there. They became fed up. The husband changed the sign " BARGIN and ONLY $40". Next day, they went to garage the washing machine was gone. Someone took it " stole it " the wife cried !!.

Sometimes, it makes me think it is because God love the world so much and he makes other human care for humanity so much, sent Jesus Christ the saviour as free gift, and some people don't want to know. What is the right thing to do Justice, mercy and faith as well as God wants us to do? It is not about relgion but about the truth of this world. True religion is to know The love that Christ imparts; True religion is to show. This love to burdened hearts. To make the most of your life make God' s goals your goals. Merry Christmas to you all. Without Jesus there is no Chirstmas

[thalbergmad]

You don't happen to come from Pa do you?

Thal

[richard black]

Without Jesus there is no Christmas

This of course is literally true. It's arguably also true that without Jesus there is no permanent (since, well, about 2000 years ago, really) war in the Middle East. I wouldn't care to pin the blame on the man himself, what with him being dead and everything, but the religion his so-called followers set up allegedly in his name has a lot to answer for.

Merry, er, Winter Solstice!