Beethoven sonata op13 pathetique. How to play Grave

[dora96]

I am learning the pathetique, my Russian teacher taught me not to use pedal with Grave only on the ff. I found that it is so hard to play the left hand with chord. How to play it light enough and legato enough and not making like a marching sound.  I am worried why most people play with pedal. She said Beethoven and mozart hardly use pedal only very little in some parts of the song.  I don't want to augry with her but how to play without using pedal not making the song harsh and dry. Is there anyone taught not using the pedal ?

[daniloperusina]

The question of pedal in Mozart and Beethoven does not have an easy answer. It's a complex problem with many factors weighing in.

First, the pianos they had were very different from ours. It did not have an iron frame; the strings were thinner; the hammers were smaller and covered with leather instead of felt (in Mozart's time). These instruments had very little power and sustain compared to today. They were fitted with pedal. Mozart used pedal, but we don't know how, when, how much etc.

With Beethoven came a new era of pianoplaying. He himself said he thought Mozart's style was 'dry' (he heard him play). Beethoven was a genuine legato player, and had pianos fitted with even more pedals than we have. Sometimes his music contains the instruction una corda (=one string).This is because in his time you had pedals to shift from three (or four) strings to two or one string (on the same note). Alas, that instruction meant pressing down one particular pedal he had that shifts to just one string, creating a very hushed sound. Today we simply press the left pedal, in reality shifting from three to two strings.

With the right pedal, the sustain pedal, we also enter a new era with Beethoven. There's the famous instruction he wrote for the Moonlight first movement:
"Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino"
=You must play this whole piece delicately and without dampers.
That means, press the pedal down and never lift it! Arguably, nobody ever asked for so much pedal.
Still, we are left with little information. It's not until the next generation, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt, that the pedal becomes a truly integral part of the structure of the music. They also wrote in great detail in the score about where to use it.

Then came the 20th century. Instruments of enormous power and sustain. A new pedal-technique emerged to enhance the clarity, basically
1.hit the note
2.press the pedal
3.lift the hand
4.hit the next note and simultaneously lift the pedal
Also emerged the 'style' of
no pedal in Mozart and Bach
a little pedal in Beethoven
ignore Chopin's pedalmarkings

All this was news.
Back to Beethoven and Pathetique. It needs a lot of pedal. But sometimes teachers will instruct you to practice without the pedal in order to master the balance and phrasing with your fingers alone. Also, the pedal needs to be applied with great sensitivity, for when we use the pedal we must never loose control of chord voicings etc.

If Beethoven was able to hear a modern performance with only a little use of the pedal, chances are he would say "you make my music sound like Mozart's".   

[bob3.1415926]

Not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for, but with respect to playing the Grave section well, my former (I moved  ) piano teacher told me the following.

Take it slow. Very slow. As slow as you can take it without it dragging. Every chord has to be heavy. Hold on to them for as long as you can, only moving to the next chord when you absolutely can't hold onto the current chord for any longer without it sounding daft. It should feel almost like you're collapsing onto the piano.

He talked very much in feelings, rather than fingers. It doesn't need much pedal when you play it like that. I dunno if this'll make any sense to you though.

[dan101]

Try capturing what you feel rather than worrying about an exact metronome marking. Also, ask your teacher to demonstrate an approximate tempo and/or listen to a few recordings to get an idea.

As for the pedal, some good points have been brought up already. I allow myself more pedal in Beethoven than in Mozart works, but I am careful not to make Beethoven sound like Chopin. Beethoven was both a Classical and Romantic era composer, thus giving you more flexibility in your pedal approach.

[counterpoint]

To me it seems, especially piano teachers have generally a strange fear to use pedal in any music, regardless if it is Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin or whoever.

I don't understand this.

The pedal helps to make the sound colourful, and that's how music should sound.

Of course, everyone uses pedal in the Grave part and in the other parts of Beethoven's Pathétique.

Just play it like this 

https://de.youtube.com/watch?v=LDE9mSnfN0g

[dora96]

Thank you so much, I have got some right idea. Another question how to count the Grave. I taught to count 4 counts per crochet. I count (1,2,3,4)  & (1,2 and play the next chord (dotted simi qaver), 3,4) 1234, 1234. Is that right ? I hear few recording none of them counted the same way. Some faster and some slower. What is the correct right? Listening the recording, they all sound fantastic overall. But what is the right way in Beethoven mind I want to know ?? 

[dora96]

I count 4 count per crochet . I have 4 bars of the famous pathetic. Specially the last bar. how to count properly. Anyone has any opinion let me know

[invictious]

When it's written like that, don't bother counting, pretend it's a mini cadenza. It isn't meant to be counted.