Keeping the faith

[gilad]

Nowadays most europeans seem identify themselves as athiests, aganostics or something similar.

How many of us here are still strong adherents of the three major monotheistic religions.

And where are you from?

[ahinton]

Nowadays most europeans seem identify themselves as athiests, aganostics or something similar.

How many of us here are still strong adherents of the three major monotheistic religions.

And where are you from?

I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to suggest that "most" Europeans necessarily do that and, in any case, I think that quite a substantial proportion of members here may be from outside Europe in any case.

I am from Europe and, although I do not subscribe to any of those faiths, I would not describe myself as an atheist as such.

Best,

Alistair

[counterpoint]

You will be surprised: I believe in music!      It's the most spiritual phenomenon I can think of. And it's accessible to everyone. No special membership in a club is required. You don't even have to believe in illogic things like a worldwide flood, virgin mothers, men walking on water, cruelty is good if used against non-believers etc. Music is just the proof, that there is a spiritual dimension, that doesn't exclude anyone.

I don't believe in a god, who will kill the greatest part of the world's population, because they are "bad" or because they don't believe in him.

I guess, I'm an atheist in the eyes of many so-called "true believers"  

[chopininov]

You will be surprised: I believe in music!      It's the most spiritual phenomenon I can think of. And it's accessible to everyone. No special membership in a club is required. You don't even have to believe in illogic things like a worldwide flood, virgin mothers, men walking on water, cruelty is good if used against non-believers etc. Music is just the proof, that there is a spiritual dimension, that doesn't exclude anyone.

I don't believe in a god, who will kill the greatest part of the world's population, because they are "bad" or because they don't believe in him.

I guess, I'm an atheist in the eyes of many so-called "true believers"  

Blasphemy!!!

[zheer]

  I believe in Allah (God) the same God that Jewish and Christians believe in.I also believe that both mohammed and jesus where  Gods messenger.So yeah i'd say am a non practising sunni muslim,originally from the mid-east an ethnic kurd.

[ramithediv]

I am from Europe, and don't believe in any form of God, although i think counterpoints answer was good.

I believe that we evolved from lower life forms, and somewhere along the line, some-how, we developed self-awareness and other higher brain functions.

At a point in pre-history we started to question why we are here and why do the stars move, and other such difficult questions.

I believe that religion was a neccessity in those times, to explain away all the things that man could not explain.

Now that man can explain most of these things, religion has no use, except for moral guidence, but to most modern religious leaders this does not seem important anymore.

These are my beliefs, and no more. I do not expect, or ask, anyone else to believe them.
I also think that the religions that force people to do stupid things are actually moraly void.

[prometheus]

Religion does not provide any morality. It merely helps some people to act moral. At least, that's what they claim.

[thierry13]

Religion does not provide any morality. It merely helps some people to act moral. At least, that's what they claim.

Merely helps some people to THINK they act moral, or at least trying to make others believe so is, in general, their only goal 

[rc]

I consider myself fairly spiritual, I believe in a higher power...  I have no use for orthodoxy, but can respect most who do.

[gilad]

I am jewish. Its fun to eat givilter fish and chopped liver. Its an ashkenazi thing i suppose. I love falafal and shwarma too. I enjoy jewish culture, but mostly don't believe in divinity or God. sometimes its a struggle to be jewish and not to believe in God. It seems a paradoxical statement. But it's not.

At times I do hope there is a God.

Other times I feel guilty for my denial of God.

Most times I just don't care. I concern myself with earthly and human matters.

[rc]

Can't say I'm all that familiar with jewish culture, but I love klezmer!

[thalbergmad]

I am a Muslim with a large teddy bear collection.

Thal

[pianochick93]

I don't have a religion, nor am I much of a believer.
I am fairly spiritual, and believe in karma, and other things that some people would dismiss as bull****, such as certain colour provoking certain emotions. I also don't have a problem with people who are religious, because everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I even find religion interesting, because of the morals involved. At some stage I would like to go to church with a friend, just to see what it is like.

[zheer]

I am a Muslim with a large teddy bear collection.

Thal

  Salam wa alay com.

[thalbergmad]

Wa Alay-Kum as-Salaam

[zheer]

  Very good.

[thalbergmad]

Thanks old chap.

Thal

[pianistimo]

People sometimes say faith is blind.  Faith can be also challenged and proven just as scientifically possible with eyes wide open.  For instance, a particular author - have to look up his name - wrote a book recently on the topic of the origins of religion and found many to have similar 'comings together' - but some ended (going backwards now) origin before others.  In other words, which religion has the longest history and has ideas from which other religions plagarized?  To me, the answer is simple - the Christian religion.

Going back to 900 BC we find out that the first temple that Solomon built which is under the Dome of the Rock (and being excavated and dumped at times into landfills and/or Kidron Valley) - has the exact dimensions, details, and description of places and or objects in it as mentioned in the bible.  You find that the bible is never proven wrong - so in that sense the places, peoples, languages - are a scientific proof that this existed.  People don't espouse it as much as things that do not prove the bible.  In fact, many wish to dismiss some of the findings as 'forgery' or some such.

Why? To dismiss the bible's truthfulness.  As I understand faith...'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of the Lord.'  God tells us what is true.  And, it is always true.

I was also reading a recent Times magazine article which mentioned a copy 'book of Acts' that was from the second century being recently found.

What is also interesting to me, is the origin of many ceremonies that typically would not come from a human idea.  In other words, if we were evolved - why get married?  Why be faithful to one spouse?  I think this idea comes from God.  He created the idea of the marriage ceremony or admission of vows to another.  And, the vows that ones says in taking oaths of office.  These oaths are ancient but obviously changed drastically over the years.  The only oaths that have not changed drastically are the oaths for the British Monarchy - which can be traced (even the music) to the time of the Davidic Kings!  Basically, King David. 

Another idea which proves genetically that people have not mutated much is mtDNA.  It basically disproves on the spot the idea that people have mutated much because so much depends upon mtDNA and it's maternal link which has led to the idea all going back to one mother.  Now, how could the first mother be very far from the first father?  It's just insane to predict that this 'eve' was suddenly thousands of years removed from the first 'adam.'  And, in some of Richard Dawkins premise's you'll find really random and ridiculous ideas about the very origins of life and human life especially.  Read his books more carefully and you will find MANY theories - some kind of absurd and absolutely unproveable.

[thalbergmad]

In other words, which religion has the longest history and has ideas from which other religions plagarized?  To me, the answer is simple - the Christian religion.

Utter nonsense as usual.

Religion and sun worship as practised by the Ancient Egyptians 3000BC are far older. It is Christianity that has borrowed from other religions. There are tales of virgin births, floods and babies floating down rivers in baskets far older than your Old Testament rubbish.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

You find that the bible is never proven wrong - so in that sense the places, peoples, languages - are a scientific proof that this existed. 

Complete bilge again.

There is no science contained in your absurd book of fairy tales.

Thal

[pianistimo]

In terms of civilizations - we do not know about the 'Atlantian' type of thoughts that prevailed after the flood.  But, we know mighty civilizations existed before the Egyptian. (even though the flood seems to come partway between some very early egyptian dynasties and the later ones).  It was called Sumerian and most probably mentioned by the bible as originating in the Land of Shinar - where Babylons origins started with a mighty hunter called Nimrod.  In fact, his ideas were so into mystery - that some survived after the flood and became a strong part of Egyptian thought.  The twisting of the idea that a man could be a 'god' and like the 'sun' have rebirth without the true God.  To have human salvation.  That was why Nimrod was rejected by God.  He was all about saving himself.

[thalbergmad]

point?

[ahinton]

In terms of civilizations - we do not know about the 'Atlantian' type of thoughts that prevailed after the flood.  But, we know mighty civilizations existed before the Egyptian. (even though the flood seems to come partway between some very early egyptian dynasties and the later ones).  It was called Sumerian and most probably mentioned by the bible as originating in the Land of Shinar - where Babylons origins started with a mighty hunter called Nimrod.  In fact, his ideas were so into mystery - that some survived after the flood and became a strong part of Egyptian thought.  The twisting of the idea that a man could be a 'god' and like the 'sun' have rebirth without the true God.  To have human salvation.  That was why Nimrod was rejected by God.  He was all about saving himself.

Nimrod rejected? Oh well, one may then wonder why the admittedly lapsed Catholic Elgar left that variation in his Enigma Variations but, in the meantime, we may well wonder all the more why, after a second absence, you start all this stuff over again.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of nothing is for evil men to do good" (some other berk)...

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

I also like falafel.

[thalbergmad]

After each break she seems to come back even more demented.

To trumpet your own religion is one thing, but to belittle someone else's is disgusting.

She spits her vile poison over these pages like some crazed puff adder and is more dangerous than Bin laden.

Thal

[ahinton]

She...is more dangerous than Bin laden.

Now that's abit unfair - and untrue, too, in at least one sense; her location in Collegeville, PA, USA is known, whereas that of Osama bin Laden appears not to be known to anyone other than his closest henchmen...

Best,

Alistair

[pianogeek_cz]

After each break she seems to come back even more demented.

*nods*

To trumpet your own religion is one thing, but to belittle someone else's is disgusting.

*nods*

She spits her vile poison over these pages like some crazed puff adder and is more dangerous than Bin laden.

Thal

The Bin Laden comparison is a bit too strong, I think, and reeks of an altered version of Godwin's law. But, other than that, quite precisely put.
_______

To the topic: Well, I think I believe there is some sort of God somewhere, possibly everywhere. I'm also very sure this can't be proven or disproven. I have no idea whatsoever what's He like, but the sensible version seems to lie somewhere in the regions of Orthodox Judaism or Catholicism. Dunno, I am rather unsure here; it's a search. And, on a side note, I think two of the greatest wisdoms of our time are: "If there's no God, nevermind and behave like there was one" (a local writer said, or, more likely, wrote this), and the other is, "God is like a wellspring in the desert; once you drink, it ceases to matter which direction you came from."

[thalbergmad]

his cloest henchmen...

Is that closet or closest?

[ahinton]

Is that closet or closest?

Abit of both, in all probability, although "closest" was what I actually had in mind (correction duly made, by the way)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

Belittling takes on new meaning in this forum.  I mean, once anyone ANYONE declares themself a christian on this forum - you may as well just expect criticism.  I have not started any belittling threads about other religions.  But, there have been many about christianity and the bible and people who take religion seriously.  So, i would say that the puff adder is actually in the direction away from God rather than for God.  In bible times, snakes are typically a representation of Satan - who dislikes and actually hates the word of God (which in modern times has been translated into many languages so that all may hear 'the gospel' and 'then the end may come.')  Those are not my words - but many people hinder the gospel thinking that if it doesn't go out to the world - then God may be thwarted.  What is actually happening now - is that most everyone has heard the gospel and now the end is coming.  Laugh all you want.  It's right on our doorstep.  This is not belittling anyone.  It is just saying a truth.

In the book of Matthew, Jesus Christ was asked 'when is the sign of your coming?'  He mentioned wars and rumors of wars, and many other things - including those who come in Jesus name (saying they ARE the Christ - or represent Christ) - but he said that 'every eye' will see him when He comes in power and glory.  And, he admonished the disciples then and now to be ready and not to sleep.  Sleeping indicates lethargy and an inability to stay focused.  So, if you are a christian - having criticism actually helps you focus.

[jakev2.0]

In the book of Matthew, Jesus Christ was asked 'when is the sign of your coming?'

To which Jesus replied: "when I roll onto my side of the bed and ask for a cigarette".

Matthew 4:20

[thalberg]

Belittling takes on new meaning in this forum.  I mean, once anyone ANYONE declares themself a christian on this forum - you may as well just expect criticism.  I have not started any belittling threads about other religions.  But, there have been many about christianity and the bible and people who take religion seriously. 

This is true, and very sad.  I'm getting so tired of it I'm considering drastically cutting my visits here.

[ahinton]

Belittling takes on new meaning in this forum.  I mean, once anyone ANYONE declares themself a christian on this forum - you may as well just expect criticism.  I have not started any belittling threads about other religions.  But, there have been many about christianity and the bible and people who take religion seriously.  So, i would say that the puff adder is actually in the direction away from God rather than for God.  In bible times, snakes are typically a representation of Satan - who dislikes and actually hates the word of God (which in modern times has been translated into many languages so that all may hear 'the gospel' and 'then the end may come.')  Those are not my words - but many people hinder the gospel thinking that if it doesn't go out to the world - then God may be thwarted.  What is actually happening now - is that most everyone has heard the gospel and now the end is coming.  Laugh all you want.  It's right on our doorstep.  This is not belittling anyone.  It is just saying a truth.

In the book of Matthew, Jesus Christ was asked 'when is the sign of your coming?'  He mentioned wars and rumors of wars, and many other things - including those who come in Jesus name (saying they ARE the Christ - or represent Christ) - but he said that 'every eye' will see him when He comes in power and glory.  And, he admonished the disciples then and now to be ready and not to sleep.  Sleeping indicates lethargy and an inability to stay focused.  So, if you are a christian - having criticism actually helps you focus.

Well, if "anyone" wants belittling of Christians per se on this forum or anywhere else, they'll have to look elsewhere than my posts. There is also considerable difference between belittling for its own sake and offering the kind of criticism mentioned here that "helps you focus".

Snakes are snakes and they come in many varities from the harmless to the fatal - no more, no less; they are, presumably, "God's creatures" to you, though, are they not?

I certainly take genuine religions seriously, even though I do not personally subscribe to any; that does not, however, preclude me from questioning certain interpretations of long-ago texts and events that one is wont to hear from certain people who do subscribe to them - and this applies equally to claims about the Qu'ran as it does to those about the Bible.

Matthew's world-view was inevitably compromised by the tiny amount of that world that he was able to know; the same applied to every other contributor to the Bible and it could not have been otherwise. For anyone literally to suggest that "all eyes will see" anything of the kind that was described there is simply poetic fantasy; to take that literally is to ignore that fact and to make of it something that's far too simple. Jesus Christ has been here once already; I think that most of us here would at least agree that much. He left an important legacy. Wouldn't even a perceived need for a second coming imply a suspicion of failure first time around? Be that as it may, we have that legacy and that's that. Literal "second comings" of Christ are likely to cut little ice with Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and others in any case.

No, I'm not interested in belittling - still less laughing at - Christianity, but I will from time to time take issue with certain persuasions of the literalist school.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Belittling takes on new meaning in this forum.  I mean, once anyone ANYONE declares themself a christian on this forum - you may as well just expect criticism. 

That is totally untrue, you come in for most of the criticism because of your blinkered inflexible and bigoted posts. Other Christians write on this forum and are left alone.

You come on here, write pages of demented drivel and wonder why you get criticism. You argue points where you must know that you are wrong, refuse to even consider educated posts by learned members and belittle those that your feeble brain has not the capacity or desire to understand.

You are vile poisonous fundamentalist scum.

Thal

[thalberg]

You are vile poisonous fundamentalist scum.

Thal

Susan, you absolutely must use this for your signature.  It's priceless. 

[thalbergmad]

She should.

I used her insults for mine.

Thal

[term]

Nowadays most europeans seem identify themselves as athiests, aganostics or something similar.

as if you can only believe in something if you're a member of a religion...

I'm a pantheist.

[thalbergmad]

I'm a banjoist

[counterpoint]

She should.

I used her insults for mine.

Thal

What a fatal entanglement...   

[sharon_f]

I'm a second generation American and a non-practicing Roman Catholic. I am the bane of evangelical, fundamentalist Christians. I believe all people can be saved, whether they believe in Jesus or not, and that faith without good works is meaningless.

[thalbergmad]

I believe all people can be saved, whether they believe in Jesus or not, and that faith without good works is meaningless.

That is a lovely sentence.

I find it horrific that certain fundamentalists would exclude non-believers and people from other faiths.

Thal

[pianistimo]

Excluding them in what way?  I am confused.  First Christians are bashed.  Then, they are told 'shut up' when they express why they believe the way they do.  Nobody is asking anyone else to believe the same way.  It's just that both sides of the story have to be told so that those who are undecided can make a rational decision for themselves if they choose to.  To openly say - Christians are deluded.  They cannot think for themselves.  Everything they believe was taught to them at an early age.  They are not capable of higher thought...etc etc - this is belittling, imo.  Even the EMO stuff is out of hand - because I have not chased around anyone saying 'you are brain dead because you are not a Christian.'  I have been told that i am 'emo' for being a Christian.  I think that the true situation here is one of putting down Christians because supposedly they start arguments and 'wars.'  Have you ever seen the true conditions of Christians in many countries?  They are jailed, tortured, asked to revoke their beliefs, etc.  Many are executed.
Some have been also abducted when doing good in a country.  This is really strange.  They are there to help and give - and then are accused of 'whatever' and killed.  And, I'm not excluding catholic charities here.

I have no problem with doing good.  What I have a problem with is when someone says - 'this is the Christian faith.'  Being Christian depends on believing what Christ taught.  He didn't ONLY talk about doing good.  He also preached 'the gospel of the kingdom.'  what Churches today READ THE BIBLE and preach what it says?  Some don't, you know.  they preach that all you ahve to do to be saved is 'be yourself.'  Is this TRUE?  What IF it isn't.  Will ALL BE SAVED?  Only God knows.  But, I know that the bible says many times to forsake what we (all of us) were before we knew God and turn towards truth.  What is truth.  That means SEEKING TRUTH.  There are many lies.  I believe that every word of God is truth... and  'for REPROOF and instruction in righteousness.'

[pianistimo]

I would also like to reply to the idea that the bible is too far removed from us to have any consequence.  Just because the disciples of Christ during his lifetime were living in another setting and governmental situation - there are MANY similarities today.  The Romans were for one type of government and the Christians for another.  Government is the real issue.  Who do you want to serve?  We can keep 'the law of the land' - but also be able to see for ourselves what is TRULY JUST.  Jesus Christ was and is and always will be the most just ruler.  The KING of peace.  btw, the rules of the OT for the israelites included things like the jubilee - where land would actually return to a family no matter how destitute they became.  Do you see any laws like that today?  Or, that the land should have a 'rest' so it doesn't become depleted.  Only God knows how his creation works best.

[pianogeek_cz]

Excluding them in what way?  I am confused.  First Christians are bashed.  Then, they are told 'shut up' when they express why they believe the way they do. 

Such a lovely pluralus majestaticus.

Will ALL BE SAVED?

I think the thing goes that all who eventually accept His grace will. Not sure, though, it's quite some time since I studied this.

 
Only God knows.  But, I know that the bible says many times to forsake what we (all of us) were before we knew God and turn towards truth.  What is truth.  That means SEEKING TRUTH.  There are many lies.  I believe that every word of God is truth... and  'for REPROOF and instruction in righteousness.'

Hehe. A fun bit of paradox philosophy. If there is a God like the monotheistic religions say, is the concept of truth subject to Him? Can we refer to this concept truth as a third entity when deciding for ourselves our relationship with Him? *ponders*

[pianistimo]

That is where, I feel (and this is personal and probably subjective to most), the idea of the trinity or third 'person' of God is not really proven in biblical texts.  The Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus was ressurrected and risen back to God.  If he could have given this Holy Spirit before - it would show he operated within his own sphere sometimes APART from God the Father.  but, He never did!  He always said, I come to do my Father's will.  If this is so - then the Holy Spirit is intimately linked with the unity and oneness of God and can ALSO link to us (who are made in the image of God) and make US ONE WITH GOD.  There is no alienating factor to keep us from being in the very family of God and as one with God as the rest of the family.  Our own personal families are a small replica of the larger world family - and then, God or Spirit-being family that we are destined to join at the ressurrection (if you believe what the bible says!).  It doesn't say anything about 'going to heaven' and just standing around praising God.  It mentions a Kingdom with actual responsibilities (five cities, ten cities) and is said to start right here on this very earth with it's capital at Jerusalem!  Then when the earth is subsumed (all humans) into spirit - another dimension - at which the heavens will 'melt.'  It is said by scientists that this could have and should have occurred already - because of how much helium is all around us and in space.  It wouldn't take much for the entire thing to be aflame.  But, what God makes lives forever!  Any possibility of living forever for us is entirely inGod's hands.  He writes 'the book of life' and the names that are in it.

PS I do believe the bible is true when it says - when Jesus Christ comes in power and glory - those who call on His name WILL BE SAVED.  However, what happens to those who died before his coming?  Does it matter what you do during your lifetime.  I think it does - otherwise Christ would not have given the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.  It shows this poor man inheriting a kingdom.  and, the rich man excluded and waiting for his death sentence (judgement) since all have to come before the judgement seat of God - according to the bible.

[casketmaker]

I find too much hippocracy in Christianity. I can not follow a religion that tells you to love thy neighbor but then tells to hate people who are different than you. I don't exactly follow a religion. I simply try and be the best human I can and I attempt to lend my hand to anyone who is in need. The rest of the religious stuff is just a waste of brain cells. IMHO There is one religion that I show interest in. Rather than telling you what you can't do and then passing along a fear that if you stray horrible things will happen to you, this religion has but one rule. It deasn't have 10 commandments/ threats. I think that rule is a simple way to look at life and if you apply it you will make your life more fullfilled without the threat of going to a place called hell and being anal raped by demons for all eternity. The rule is "do as you will, but harm none". Quite simple and easy to understand.  


Anyone who looks down their nose at someone because they have a differing faith system/religion is not the kind of person I associate with. Christians, Budists, Musslims, Pegans or whatever. If you respect me I will respect you.

Now lets all have a beer.  

 

[thalbergmad]

To openly say - Christians are deluded. 

I do not say that, but i DO say that you are deluded.

Your version of Christianty is the most rigid and vile. A few months ago you came out with a little saying that i will never forget: "try a religion that works". It is this kind of narrow thinking that i despise the most in you. You think that your religion is the only "true" religion, which is an insult to followers of other faiths.

I have learned in the past that it is impossible to debate with you as your opinions are already fully formed and totally inflexible. The fact that you will not tolerate even the possibility of a single untruth in the entire bible makes it impossible that you will ever develop into a more balanced Christian. I once gave you an incredible amount of evidence that Ramesses was not the pharoah of the Exodus and still not would not accept it, even though older Biblical texts did not even mention him by name.

Your utter belief in every single word of this Book is laughable in the extreme. Despite translations and centuries of selective editing, you still hang onto every single word like some pathetic sloth holding onto a branch.

Your consistent habit of changing previous posts, dodging direct questions and refusal even to consider other opinions other than your own have infuriated many posters on this forum, not just me. It is actually a nice break when you leave for a few weeks, but you are in the habit of coming back even more demented and spasticated than before.

You are the weeping festering sore of Christianity and i hope i get banned for saying so.

Not only do i not want to be on the same forum as you, i don't even want to be on the same planet.

Thal

[jakev2.0]

Homer: Kids, let me tell you about another so-called "wicked guy". He had long hair and some wild ideas, and he didn't always do what other people thought was right. And that man's name was... I forget. But the point is... I forget that too. Marge, you know who I'm talking about. He used to drive that blue car?

[mike_lang]

I find too much hippocracy in Christianity.

Alistair, if you please...

[mike_lang]

Nowadays most europeans seem identify themselves as athiests, aganostics or something similar.

How many of us here are still strong adherents of the three major monotheistic religions.

And where are you from?

Roman Catholic

Chicago, IL, USA