Why don't they make longer white keys?

[persona]

My hands are somewhere between normal and slightly large, which makes me think I should feel as comfortable as a person can while playing the piano. Still, pieces seem the harder to me the more natural notes they have. I simply can't find enough room to play all whites (or almost all whites). I used to think I just had to learn to play in between the black keys for a more comfortable position. That worked fine in some cases ("steady" arpeggios maybe), but sometimes it's just impossible (scale like passages por example).
I've seen pros using hand positions as uncomfortable and unreasonable as some of mine just in order to stay on the thick part of the white keys because in those cases it was impossible to play otherwise. The climax of Chopin's Ballade Nš2 is a perfect example: all whites, yet you can't possibly play that sort of passage at that speed in between black keys. The result: you contract your hand to an awful possition, an still your pinky and (specially) your thumb end up pushing the very last milimetres of the white keys. And all of this for what? Who knows.
I really feel I'd play much better if I had the normal 3.5 inch blacks, and then other 3.5 inches of thick whites (instead of those lousy 2 you get). I wouldn't use it to avoid playing in between black keys, because I know sometimes you just have to. But still, I'd be able to play those all-white passages with my fingers streched as if I was playing on blacks (which works a milion times better for me, I absolutely hate contracting my fingers).
Am I insane? Has anyone ever tried to enlarge their white keys and see what happens? I've read here that Schuman tried all sorts of crazy things in order to improve his technique. I don't know, I think his problem was the opposite though.

[theodore]

Persona: 

I have the same problem. My fingertips are large and what a chore it is to play a fast Alberti bass or a trill when you have to contort your hand to accomodate the small area if the white keys within the black key groups.

The string and wind instruments all have size gradations. You can ask an instrument repair specialist to adjust the spacings on the string fingerboard or lenghten and\or adjust the woodwind keys to fit your hand. Even brass instruments come in a variety of sizes.

Piano manufacturers have yet to learn this simple fact.

Theodore

[persona]

As far as I know, string instruments that come in smaller sizes are meant for younger students. I don't think I've ever seen a serious adult orchestra that didn't use conventional sized instruments (but I can't assure there aren't).
But that's exactly my point: when I see young children playing the piano, they always look more comfortable to me than any adult. I belive we are all playing in children sized pianos.

[franz_]

How stupid is this. Every hand is different and you have to search for your own position. There are pianovirtuosos with very small hands, and pianovirtuosos with giant hands.

[gszo0]

I agree with you franz_ 

I think that it's quite different to make variety of sizes of eg. strings which you can easily take with you to the concert hall or practise at home. Imagine how hard it would be if there were several sizes of piano keyboards and you were supposed to accomodate to it before a concert or competition. Forgive me my English, please 

[kevink]

If I try to play between the black keys with fingers 2, 3, or 4, I end up pushing down two black keys on either side of the white key I'm shooting for.  I have to angle my hand so that my fingers come down nearly perpendicular to the keys in order to avoid pushing down the black keys.  My hands are rather large (spanning an 11th is no problem although I cannot realistically play a 12th). 

Some pianos (mostly older ones) do have wider or narrower key spacings, by fractions of an inch.  It makes a huge difference to me to have even slightly wider keys, in terms of ease of accuracy.  I agree that we are playing on keyboards that are in general not suited to the size of adults in modern times.  In Europe one can see how the height of doors and ceilings has changed in the last 100 years to accommodate taller, more well-nourished humans... but piano keys have not changed substantially. 

That being said, it would be a nightmare if there were no general standard of key width, because we don't take our instruments with us to the concert halls.  So it's a tough problem.

Another problem I have is that my knees don't fit comfortably beneath a piano's keyboard... the piano just wasn't designed for someone my height!  I think it's funny that some of my friends, who are literally half my size, play the same-sized instrument I do!

[danny elfboy]

I've seen pros using hand positions as uncomfortable and unreasonable as some of mine just in order to stay on the thick part of the white keys because in those cases it was impossible to play otherwise. The climax of Chopin's Ballade Nš2 is a perfect example: all whites, yet you can't possibly play that sort of passage at that speed in between black keys. The result: you contract your hand to an awful possition, an still your pinky and (specially) your thumb end up pushing the very last milimetres of the white keys. And all of this for what? Who knows.

Try to play in a way that when you're playing with your thumb on a white key the other fingers are resting on the high part of the black keys, and when you're playing with your other fingers on white keys your thumb is just away from the keyboard and up in the air.
When you get accostumed to this backward and forward horizontal playing you'll see that you can keep your hand in a confortable parallel position and not twisting it.

[persona]

I see many people didn't get my point, I wasn't clear enough I guess. I never complained about the width of the keys, just their length. I know it would be a dissaster if they made different sizes for everyone - it's chaoitic enough as it is with weight and touch varying so much from piano to piano. What I meant to say was: if they made longer white keys (3.5 inches in for thick part, and another 3.5 for the space in between black keys, instead of the 2 and 3.5), I don't see how it could harm those who are already used to playing in regular sized pianos. In my case, I really think it would help a lot.
danny: I usually try that, but in some cases it's not possible. Also, what bothers me the most about the length of white keys as it is, is having to use the last 1/3 of an inch of my thumb to play white notes when the previous note was a white as well (which is definitely not a technical error, since I've seen all serious pianists do so).

[rc]

One thing that might be tricky about 10 inch long keys might be the leverage at the end of the key being too different from the middle and harder to control.

If you know a good woodworker it might not be too hard to build extended keys and have a technician put them in, if you wanted to give it a try.

[persona]

You are right about that rc. I think that in order for it to work best, one might need to have a longer distance between the pin that supports the key from the middle and the end of the key (I belive gran pianos are made this way). Then the angle would be smaller, it's sin would be smaller, so the difference of depth for a given horizontal distance would be smaller too. Of course this is something I'd never attempt to do at home, but I might have some custom made wooden pieces, at least flat ones just to attach on top of the white keys and see what happens.

[nyquist]

Passages using all white keys are hard because of the different lengths of fingers and thumb.  I think there are three options:

• Curl the fingers attempting to line up the fingertips
• Play the long fingers in between the black notes
• Move the hand/forearm in and out so that non-curled fingers play about the same spot

The Taubman technique teaches the "in-and-out" movement in a very systematic way.  It sounds very busy, but after a little practice it becomes very natural.  Moreover, in and out movements add power by helping to depress the keys.  In-and-out movements avoid finger curling which I find extremely inefficient and uncomfortable; they also minimize playing between the black keys which can be very challenging.  Also, by playing towards the end of the key, you get more leverage.

nyquist

[persona]

I see your point nyquist. I also hate curling my fingers more than needed. But to be honest, I've never seen a pianist do what you suggest. They just curl them as much as they need and end it. And I mean all of them, even Horowitz does it when he has to, that's why I belive they should make longer white keys once and for all.

[thierry13]

Horowitz should not be taken as an example for any technical question, he had the worse hands and the best technique, and is highly paradoxal. The keys were made so that everyone can play the piano, small and huge hands, it's in the middle. Small hands struggle with some pieces, large hands struggle with curling fingers/ getting stuck in white keys. Both has disadvantages, but the piano size is a median.

[persona]

I get that, but still I don't see how could longer white keys possibly harm those who have small hands. I mean, you could just keep using the part of the key you were using before, and ignore the added length.

[thierry13]

I get that, but still I don't see how could longer white keys possibly harm those who have small hands. I mean, you could just keep using the part of the key you were using before, and ignore the added length.

The balance of the hand, the center of sensibility of the key would be moved, people that stretch from say F to Ab in a tenth, and have to go under the next key would see this stretch now impossible. It's just not possible the change the keyboard. I can understand your point of view, but just find your way, nobody will change the keyboard as it is perfectly balanced as it is now.

[persona]

For passages like that one, the performer would be forced to play the same way he used to with a conventional keyboard (with his thumb very close to the black keys). But I still belive for many other passages, one would gain a lot more comfort if the white keys were longer. I recognize it's true what you say about balance. It would simply be a matter of getting used to the new one.