hard-to-memorise piano works...

[lohshuhan]

i'm currently learning Ravel's G major Piano Concerto, and the 2nd movement is a fearsome piece to memorise. 

those who have tried it will know what i mean. 

anyone who have played other pieces which are difficult to memorise? 

btw...  talking about the second movement of the ravel g major piano concerto, should i think of it as 3/4 or 6/8?  thinking of it in 6/8 makes it a little easier to memorise, but i'm not sure if thats the way ravel wanted it to sound... 

[pianowolfi]

I find a lot of Rachmaninoff's slow pieces hard to memorize.

[hodi]

franck - prelude , fugue and variation op.18 transcribed for piano by harold bauer
i found this almost impossible to memorize.

[retrouvailles]

Messiaen, lots of serialist works, and many contemporary pieces in general are probably the hardest to memorize, if it is possible at all. It makes Romantic and everything before easy to memorize.

[lohshuhan]

Messiaen, lots of serialist works, and many contemporary pieces in general are probably the hardest to memorize, if it is possible at all. It makes Romantic and everything before easy to memorize.

i thought that most conservatories don't require students to memorise pieces after a certain year?  for mine its 1945.  there are those who still choose to memorise though.  they also set takemitsu's rain tree sketch as a set piece in our third year but nv asked us to memorise it. 

one of my friends attempted to memorise a ligeti etude back in 2005 for a competition, which proved to be her ultimate undoing, as she nv got the piece back together after breaking down in Desordre...  her other pieces were excellent, but as someone commented that she should have referred to the score for the ligeti during the competition. 

but, atonal 20th century works aside, what other pieces from the mainstream repertoire are difficult to memorise? 

[dnephi]

Bartok's Night Music
Stockhausen Kalvierstucke 11 (the one whereyou randomly look at the sheets and play until you've played one of the pieces of paper 3 times)
Bach Fugues are pretty hard, I'm told, but I've never had a very hard time myself.  My teacher was very impressed, but not so much surprised, when I showed her my fugue, memorized.

[teresa_b]

ALL of 'em. 

Teresa

[retrouvailles]

but, atonal 20th century works aside, what other pieces from the mainstream repertoire are difficult to memorise?

Not everything that is hard to memorize from the 20th century is atonal (Messiaen, for example, is often times not atonal).

And yeah, Bach fugues are pretty hard to memorize. Almost any fugue can be difficult to memorize.

[viking]

The Hamelin Prelude and Fugue nearly drove me insane....actually...

[general disarray]

Most of Albeniz "Iberia," I think, is a major pain to memorize.  All those infinite numbers of inner voices wandering about almost aimlessly and rarely repeating a consistent pattern.

"El Puerto" really drove me nuts.

Also, Brahms' "Variations on an original theme," Op. 21, No. 1 gave me fits.  I never tried to perform it because I just could not wrap my brain around Variation No. 7.  I had a total meltdown over it.  One nasty page.  May it be cursed forever.

[elevateme_returns]

bach fugue 24 WTC 1

[soliloquy]

Le Gibet from Gaspard de la Nuit
Barber Sonata
Scriabin Sonata No. 8
Debussy Images II
Prokofiev Sonata No. 8

[invictious]

Generally 20th Century works because our brain isn't used to organizing the music in an orderly fashion than in the Classical Period.

Scriabin's sonatas are a great example.

[retrouvailles]

I actually find Romantic (early, middle, and late) works to be easiest to memorize. This includes Scriabin and Rachmaninoff and even Ravel (yes, I know, Impressionist). The stuff I have found hard to memorize is Baroque and some 20th century and even some Classical stuff. I guess I'm just weird like that.

[indutrial]

Memorizing complex 20th century works is retarded unless it happens naturally from an extensive theoretical study or an insane amount of run-throughs (like when someone prepares a thesis on this or that piano sonata).

[dnephi]

I find Schumann hard to memorize because it's just so illogical.

[richard black]

A lot of Godowsky is easy to memorise approximately, very hard to memorise accurately.

[pies]

4'33" lolololol

[ahinton]

A lot of Godowsky is easy to memorise approximately, very hard to memorise accurately.

Indeed - try memorizing the Passacaglia (no, Richard, I don't mean you, I'm talking to the others!); even Carlo Grante and the Godowsky expert Charles Hopkins (1952-2007) admitted that this is immensely hard to memorise.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Indeed - try memorizing the Passacaglia (no, Richard, I don't mean you, I'm talking to the others!); even Carlo Grante and the Godowsky expert Charles Hopkins (1952-2007) admitted that this is immensely hard to memorise.

Best,

Alistair

Do you know if MAH memorized it?

[pianistimo]

MAH can probably memorize anything.  I guess once you get to that stage memorizing the ENTIRE busoni concerto is nothing.  Even though it is not my favorite concerto - I was AMAZED.  Also, I've heard him play the Alkan concerto on the radio - which is pretty stunning - and imagined that he must have memorized it to play it so well.  (Alkan only wrote one didn't he?)

Even though my memory is much worse (when i don't exercise every day at least an hour) - i find that repetition still helps.  And, giving oneself little form cues or make up stories to go with the piece.  Even 20th century pieces can have some similarities of repetition (even if not exact).  You have to look for similar intervals or sounds or patterns on the keyboard.  Everyone here knows that -but it's very different when you combine nerves and a whole slew of notes that don't make harmonic sense on the first hearing.  I'd say Barber can make me terribly nervous although that type of music really increases a musicians awareness of where the notes are on the piano - and you start being able to hear when you hit a wrong note - or where you should be on the keyboard to get the sounds you want.

Surprisingly, I memorized (which is hard for some) the entire Bach English Suite III several years ago.  Many years ago, I thought one of my peers who memorized the Italian Concerto was genius.  She probably still is genius, to me, but insanely dexterous too.

[amelialw]

it's easy for me to memorise anything....usually i'll just practise it for a few days to 2 weeks, depending on the length of the piece, try playing it without the book and realise that I have it memorised already

[retrouvailles]

I have actually seen many videos where Marc-André Hamelin uses the music. Mostly it was crazy 20th century stuff like Ronn Yedidia's 3rd Piano Sonata and Roslavets' 3 Etudes, which are both incredibly hard and complex.

[mcgillcomposer]

I find Schumann hard to memorize because it's just so illogical.

It is? His formal structures seem pretty clear to me - the only thing I find difficult are his awkward piano figurations.

[thalberg]

Berg Sonata.

I know, I know, it's my answer for everything.  But it is hard to memorize.

[jpowell]

Generally 20th Century works because our brain isn't used to organizing the music in an orderly fashion than in the Classical Period.

Scriabin's sonatas are a great example.

Scriabin's sonatas are organised in a highly orderly fashion, and are mostly Classical in construction. Medtner's are too, but I find his work hard to memorise, while Scriabin's relatively easy. Other people have told me as much too, but none of us can figure out why.

[ahinton]

Scriabin's sonatas are organised in a highly orderly fashion, and are mostly Classical in construction. Medtner's are too, but I find his work hard to memorise, while Scriabin's relatively easy. Other people have told me as much too, but none of us can figure out why.

Yes - I don't know how other pianists feel about memorising Scriabin but I've only ever heard from one pianist who's played a fair amount of Medtner without finding that music hard to memorise (I refer to Marc-André Hamelin): even Hamish Milne, who has been playing Medtner's piano music for most of his professional life, once testified to the problems of effective memorisation of this repertoire. Another pianist once told me that, having spent a long time learning and memorising the splendid Op. 52 No. 2 sonata, he was dismayed and somewhat shocked to discover just how rapidly much of it evaporated from the memory following his first performance of it. I have no idea why this should be, either. What I do know is that almost all of Medtner's work is worth the effort; surprisingly little of it is much below his best, I feel.

Best,

Alistair

[cforlana]

Most of Albeniz "Iberia," I think, is a major pain to memorize.  All those infinite numbers of inner voices wandering about almost aimlessly and rarely repeating a consistent pattern.

"El Puerto" really drove me nuts.

I have no idea why it's difficult to memorize. It seemed to go into memory almost effortlessly for me. Maybe you should do some research, readings on "Iberia" and Albeniz's style, that might help to get new appreciation and perspective and might make it easier to memorize.  IMHO

[pianorin]

dont memorise it.. play out from your heart. 

[indutrial]

Another pianist once told me that, having spent a long time learning and memorising the splendid Op. 52 No. 2 sonata, he was dismayed and somewhat shocked to discover just how rapidly much of it evaporated from the memory following his first performance of it. I have no idea why this should be, either. What I do know is that almost all of Medtner's work is worth the effort; surprisingly little of it is much below his best, I feel.

Best,

Alistair

At least he got through the performance. I saw a disastrous recital once where the pianist had attempted to memorize a really large romantic sonata of some sort. At one point, he had a brain fart and realized his performance had morphed into another piece by another composer that happened to have some similar passages in the same key. When he realized how deep he had sunk, out of desperation he threw in this brutally horrible and directionless cadenza, hit a giant V7 chord and hopped back into the ending of the piece he began with. Sadly, a lot of people in the audience realized that something wrong had gone down!

[richard black]

It's all relative. Malcolm Troup not only performed Messiaen's 'Vingt Regards' from memory, he recorded it from memory - and it's one of the most accurate performances on disc. Marc-André Hamelin often performs with music, which doesn't seem to upset him because he never looks at his hands anyway.

And people have such variable standards for 'hard to memorise'! I once played some utterly standard aria accompaniment in a singer's audition from memory (as I'm sure most repetiteurs could) and everyone in the room just acted as if I'd solved Fermat's Last Theorem on a napkin or something.

[etudes]

from quite normal repertoire
Hammerklavier sonata (esp.the fugue)
Barber Sonata
Ravel Le Gibet (from Gaspard)

[tompilk]

im guessing the ives sonatas are hard. ive learnt the 3rd movt to the second but that is far from the other movements...

[donjuan]

anything Chopin.