viennese action: too limiting for study?

[ranandir]

I am starting second year piano lessons, but I have a Bösendorfer 235 from 1890 with a viennese action, which feels very different from my teachers' piano and other modern piano's. Has anyone experience with such a piano and will it be a serious drawback for study?

[pianistimo]

YES!  Get a new piano.  A date of 1890 will only impress those who are into antiques.  Get something sturdy, that has a bit of key weight, that doesn't have much space between the time that you touch the piano to the initiation of the action.  Typically on newer pianos this is minute.  With refurbished actions - they are not as fast.  It might not matter to an intermediate player - but causes headaches for people who are trying to be precise with the intentions of their head to the action of the piano. 

I'm not a piano salesperson - and I don't favor any piano over another.  It's just that from my experience - a mid-priced decent piano for me has been the studio piano Kawaii.  It has stayed in tune wonderfully, has been an excellent practice piano, and mimics some of the features in Steinway.  If I had more money I'd look into Petrov's or Faziolis.  I'm not as much into Bosie's but - if you could trade in this Bosie for a much more recent model - you'd be really enjoying your playing, I'm sure.  It's just that the Bosie's have a purpose (imo) to easily play debussy or chopin.  Whereas - trying modern music or baroque such as Bach could be EXTREMELY frustrating.  I don't find the same amount of CLEAR coloration.  It's always a bit fuzzy.  It fits Romantic music well.

[ranandir]

Yes, this piano is antique, but it sure is very sturdy because nothing is broken in 120 years and the action works well. And it has a lot of key weight, more than the modern pianos I tried, especially in the bass section.( I replaced the original hammerheads with a Renner set made for this type of action).
 this action is very simple and very direct; I can't imaging anything faster, because the hammers are on the keys and react immediatly.
But it feels very different; it's a difference like the exact feeling of the road in my Landrover compared with the big comfortable french car of my wife with what I consider excessive power steering.

[pianistimo]

Hammerheads are nice - but action is better.  You make a good analogy with the cars.  That's because one probably is newer and has a more revved up engine or something.  I wouldn't make the connection to the power brakes over doing it - because long before you need brakes - you need the power.  Typically, overexcited pianists don't care about brakes on a piano.  They want to see split second sensitivity to touch.  And, I suppose certain actions need a certain amount of momentum to the touch to know whether to go forward with the hammers quickly or not so quickly.  If the hammers ALWAYS go the same speed- how can you control the tone or coloration of tones?  You can't.  You get fuzz.

So much improvement to action has occurred since then - hasn't it?  I mean - you have the ability now to think a sound and then create it.  With Viennese pianos you have the elegance and the muffled sounds of 100 year old action (albeit improved upon slightly with newer hammers - but the hammers hitting the strings quickly is only one little portion of what the action does) which might need a bit more clearness and precision.  Exactly what your wife's sports car is doing.

Double escapement baby!  I guess it is like power brakes - excepting that if they over-brake you have clearness to a passage rather than too much mush.  Pianists get criticism if they are mushy with pedalling - but not so much if they are detached.  I don't know why that is.  Possibly a more difficult piano to play could become warmed up in a few months - but 100 years is taking it to extremes isn't it?  Also, what did the early Viennese pianos do to create the una-chorda effect?  Does the whole keyboard shift over - or does something else happen?   From my experience on playing a few instruments like this for a few minutes - the soft effect is hardly noticeable from the loud.  You have a damper pedal which actually restrains you - somehow.  Perhaps it is already halfway down before you depress it.  It makes me want to stick my head under the piano and yell at the pedals. 

Well, for Beethoven - you need a new piano, new strings, new everything.  Steam and strength in the body of the piano and in the soundboard, too.  Some might disagree, but would Beethoven?  Would beethoven play an old piano - or the lastest and greatest innovation?  After all, innovations are what kept him composing specifically to meet those demands.

Last question - does this Viennese piano have three pedals.  If it's missing one - it's a raw deal to practice on.

[daniloperusina]

Wait a minute. Viennese action refers to something at least one hundred years older than your piano. Pianos played by Mozart. You must be referring to single escapement. Basically, a Bösendorfer from 1890 is a modern piano, albeit very old. If it is fitted with a single escapement action it will of course feel slightly different than most modern ones, since standard today is double escapement. Presumably, the modern baby grands, ie the smallest ones, ca 150cm, are also fitted with single escapement, but I wouldn't swear by it. The main difference should be that with single esc you have to release the key fully in order to press it down again, whereas with double esc you can release it partially, hence a slightly faster repetition. They feel different too. But what concerns dynamics and so on your piano should be just as capable.

[ranandir]

The principle of the Viennese action is indeed much older(developed bij Stein in Mozarts' time), but there have been improvements all the time. Bösendorfer used this action up to 1910, but most other brands had long ago chosen the english action developed originally by Broadwood. The french Erard has developed the first double-eschappement action, which Beethoven didn't like. He liked the viennese grands, just like Lizst, but the latter had a practical reason: the Bösendorfers were the only instruments at that time that withstood his way of playing.
In Holland ( I am Dutch, but living in France) many grands from the 19th century are being restored and are used also to give concerts. Some of those people are specialised in Erard or other brands.
Meanwhile, while I love the 235 Bösendorfer I restored myself, it is so different from a modern piano that I have great difficulty playing my teachers' piano. By the time  get used to it, time is up for the lesson. Very frustrating.
This morning I got a call form the expert piano technician I know not far from here: he has a Steinway B 211 from 1969, completely restored (at a cost of 12.000 euros) for 30.000 euros! Wow!! But I am a bit anxious about Steinway because so many people are saying there is is a big difference in quality between their instruments, while I don't hear that kind of statements from Bösendorfer, Grotrian Steinway, Bechstein and other famous brands. Is this statement about Steinway true?

[daniloperusina]

I'd say there is no difference in quality. There's a difference in 'personality' of each instrument. I've played on...let's say one hundred Steinway grands. Not two of them have been the same. What they all shared was that they were built like tanks, withstanding enormous abuse (grands in conservatoire practice rooms), and still working fine. In my experience, other pianos eventually give in (some sooner than others), and these include Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Blüthner (let's not even go into how a Yamaha performs after 20 years in a conservatoire).

What has changed in the history of Steinway is supply of material. Manufacturing process is the same as in 1890. Also, Steinway was sold to CBS sometime in the 1970's, and for a ten year period or so, quality supposedly dropped a bit. Supposedly. Maybe someone knows for sure?

I forget the number, but it's something like 80-90% of the instrument that is built by hand, and which causes these variations in sound and touch.

1969 is likely a very good year. If you are in Holland/France it's likely a Hamburg Steinway, which for some reason have better reputation than New York Steinway. At 30.000 euro, a completely restored 1969 Hamburg B is a bargain. I just saw a restored NY B from 1917 at a higher price than that.

In my experience then, the three B's can be absolutely lovely, but the S is one step ahead of them.

[ranandir]

Thank you daniloperusina, you seem to have a lot of experience with Steinway grands and I appreciate your comments. I have very little comparison with modern pianos, but this summer I visited a couple of showrooms in Holland and tried a few modern grands, like Steinway, Bechstein and Bluthner, and I discovered another world; their touch and sound is unbelievable, a dream,but so are their prices!
But now, for the first time, it seems possible to buy one of those dreammachines, since my wife and I have started taking lessons and we will be buying a really good piano together. we share the dream of being able to play the piano well.
I have found prices for a not too old B 211 in France and Holland between 45 and 55.000 euros, so 30.000 seems really a bargain. moreover, I hate high polish polyester finish and this one is satin walnut. We are going to look at it tomorrow and maybe soon this Steinway will be together with the old Bösendorfer in the big vaulted room downstairs in my old french farmhouse.
thanks again for your reply, which is quite reassuring.

[richard black]

Yes, Bösendorfer used a pretty antique action long after most of the big names had given up on it. My 1889 Bechstein is much like a modern piano in that department, and Steinways of that period are nearly part-for-part identical to modern ones. I did a stint of opera rehearsals for a week or so on an antique Bosie like that and I can't say I enormously enjoyed it from a finger point of view.