Two Questions ( kind of )

[thepianist2008]

Okay, so they're more like question groups.

This first one is from what I posted at pianoworld:

How do you know when you're ready to play a piece? And if you know you're not ready, how do you get yourself there?

Here's the piece I want to play, and it's going to sound ridiculous, but I have a recording of it and I've fallen in love with it: Ravel's Ondine.
Now, I know I'm not ready for it, and I probably won't be for a few years, but what should I be playing to get there? When you take a difficult piece, and you pick out where its difficulties lie, how do you find another piece with similar difficulties and how do you know that it is actually easier than your target piece? How do you know that that piece you picked out is going to help you get where you want to go?

Number 2:

I was going through old posts of bernhard's and came across a discussion about scale fingerings. Bernhard says that you should make it a priority to use the fourth finger on a black key at all times and after that try to get the third finger on a black key also. This makes sense to me, knowing how the fourth finger feels, but here's the situation: say I try what bernhard says, it works amazingly, and I adopt his fingerings: what do I do about my teacher? As you can expect she uses the "orthodox" fingerings, which in her mind must be right because she brought that book with her from Russia. I already get chastised enough because I hardly practice scales and I come in not even knowing some of the "orthodox" fingerings. I guess the bottom line question is: when you come into a conflict between what works for you and what your teacher instructs, what do you do? You wouldn't want your teacher to turn out to be bad and then ruin your abilities because your teacher's not that great.

[ramithediv]

Okay, so they're more like question groups.

This first one is from what I posted at pianoworld:

How do you know when you're ready to play a piece? And if you know you're not ready, how do you get yourself there?

Here's the piece I want to play, and it's going to sound ridiculous, but I have a recording of it and I've fallen in love with it: Ravel's Ondine.
Now, I know I'm not ready for it, and I probably won't be for a few years, but what should I be playing to get there? When you take a difficult piece, and you pick out where its difficulties lie, how do you find another piece with similar difficulties and how do you know that it is actually easier than your target piece? How do you know that that piece you picked out is going to help you get where you want to go?

Number 2:

I was going through old posts of bernhard's and came across a discussion about scale fingerings. Bernhard says that you should make it a priority to use the fourth finger on a black key at all times and after that try to get the third finger on a black key also. This makes sense to me, knowing how the fourth finger feels, but here's the situation: say I try what bernhard says, it works amazingly, and I adopt his fingerings: what do I do about my teacher? As you can expect she uses the "orthodox" fingerings, which in her mind must be right because she brought that book with her from Russia. I already get chastised enough because I hardly practice scales and I come in not even knowing some of the "orthodox" fingerings. I guess the bottom line question is: when you come into a conflict between what works for you and what your teacher instructs, what do you do? You wouldn't want your teacher to turn out to be bad and then ruin your abilities because your teacher's not that great.

Two hard questions there.

I would chose the piece that you love. But I do not have anyone to please, no plan as such. 
If you have a long term plan, it may pay you to do the easier piece. Later you can learn the other, if you still love it. 

I think if I had a teacher it would be hard for me, as I always use fingering that works for me. 
If your teacher thinks that it is very bad technique, then listen. Very hard position to be in. 

[counterpoint]

Ravel's Sonatina is very nice and it's one of his easier pieces. Or you may look at Tombeau de Couperin or  Valses nobles et sentimentales.

About the scale fingering:

you should be able to play scales with every fingering, so why not practising them with different fingerings - one for your own comfort and one for the comfort of your teacher   

[m1469]

Okay, so they're more like question groups.

This first one is from what I posted at pianoworld:

How do you know when you're ready to play a piece? And if you know you're not ready, how do you get yourself there?

Here's the piece I want to play, and it's going to sound ridiculous, but I have a recording of it and I've fallen in love with it: Ravel's Ondine.
Now, I know I'm not ready for it, and I probably won't be for a few years, but what should I be playing to get there? When you take a difficult piece, and you pick out where its difficulties lie, how do you find another piece with similar difficulties and how do you know that it is actually easier than your target piece? How do you know that that piece you picked out is going to help you get where you want to go?

"Easy" and "Difficult" are both very relative terms.  There is no reason a 2 yr. old couldn't decide to play Rachmaninov's 3rd piano concerto in her/his first experience at the piano, however, there would be issues to be addressed.  One of the issues would be hand-size, another issue may be that the sheer number of shapes and musical patterns/ideas used are *all* unfamiliar to the child in many ways (including the motor skills required to play them), all of that combined with the sheer length of the piece may make this piece fairly discouraging for the child.  Perhaps if the entire piece were only one measure long, yet it still had all of the other issues involved, it would at least be more mentally manageable (though it would still pose a challenge).  However, because of the other problems involved, even if the length were cut down to one measure, I don't think the overall experience would yield much in the way of satisfaction for the child since there are still so many issues to grapple with.

So, one must figure out what makes the study of any music feel worth one's while to them, and if it feels worthwhile, I think it's the right time. 

For me personally, I am starting to realize that I expect certain things from myself right away.  If I am not able to achieve a particular sense of accessibility to a piece or to a passage in a matter of minutes, I tend to feel discouraged and I will put the piece aside for a later date.  At the same time, if I do not connect with the content of the piece in a matter of minutes (seconds ?), I also don't have the desire to play it, even if it's accessible in all the other ways.  While I know this is true about myself, I can also see that I still have more to learn along these lines in terms of patience.  The point is, it's personal.

At any rate, you can always explore a bit and see what you find .

Number 2:

I was going through old posts of bernhard's and came across a discussion about scale fingerings. Bernhard says that you should make it a priority to use the fourth finger on a black key at all times and after that try to get the third finger on a black key also. This makes sense to me, knowing how the fourth finger feels, but here's the situation: say I try what bernhard says, it works amazingly, and I adopt his fingerings: what do I do about my teacher? As you can expect she uses the "orthodox" fingerings, which in her mind must be right because she brought that book with her from Russia. I already get chastised enough because I hardly practice scales and I come in not even knowing some of the "orthodox" fingerings. I guess the bottom line question is: when you come into a conflict between what works for you and what your teacher instructs, what do you do? You wouldn't want your teacher to turn out to be bad and then ruin your abilities because your teacher's not that great.

Well, I will not try to speak for Bernhard but I have also been fiddling with unorthodox fingering as Bernhard has suggested on the forum.  While there are some practical physiological purposes to the fingering that he suggests, making scales more physically comfortable to play, there are also aural aspects to be considered.  The point of physical comfort with any passage is to ultimately produce a desired sound.

Along those lines, my experience with playing scales for an audition into a music program, for example, is that the panel sits in the back of the Hall while the student sits at the piano on stage.  Do you really think they are going to know which particular fingering you used ?  And, more than that, do you *really* think they are going to care which fingering you have used if it sounds amazing ?  If they do care that you are not using orthodox fingering, yet it sounds amazing, there better be a logical reason (ie, you are actually injuring yourself in the process and they would like to help you in that regard).

I know that you are talking about a teacher/student situation which is, in most cases, closer proximity (she may actually see your hands/fingers), but she still may not even notice.  More than that, the main goal should be the sound that the choice of fingering produces, so just be sure to serve her up a fantastic scale and you should be fine  .

[danny elfboy]

Okay, so they're more like question groups.

This first one is from what I posted at pianoworld:

How do you know when you're ready to play a piece? And if you know you're not ready, how do you get yourself there?

You must jump in and risk. That's the only way to know whether you can play the piece or have too many problems to address at one time but also the only way to make yourself able to play the piece in the process. Old people used to say that in order to teach a child to swim you must just thrown him or her where the water is too high for his/her feet to reach. The need to swim will teach him/her how to swim.
Now while I don't take this literally I understand the profound meaning.

You could be spending hours expecting that magical moment when "you're ready" by wetting your feet in a 5 inches tall pool and wearing a lifebelt. The problem is that the magical moment never comes because the very condition required for it to come is trying what you're not yes able to do, doing it and becoming good at it in the process of trials and errors.

[slobone]

I think the answer to both questions is, you have to get a good teacher and do exactly as they say. That's your only chance to get to the level where your performance of Ondine would be anything that anyone else would want to listen to...