Production of non legato tones and isolated notes

[paulpiano]

The regulation of speed of the downward movement of a key is much more easily realized if it is initiated at the shoulder.
For the production of non legato tones, the wrist and all other joints of transmission, I think, should be firmly set, to convey the needed energy to the keys. Isn't it the best way to regulate the tone volume exactly and faultlessly?

[jinfiesto]

Fingertips like steel.... Loose wrist.

[dan101]

Shoulders, wrists and fingers are all most certainly connected. In a performance, relaxation is the key. In practice, muscle building ultimately creates tension, which must be relaxed by various relaxation techniques.

In performance, be careful not to over-analyze your piano technique. It can drive you a bit crazy, if you know what I mean. Good luck.

[viking]

Fingertips like steel.... Loose wrist.

Umm, no.  By disconnecting the wrist, you lose all power that you can access from the shoulders.

[PaulNaud]

In performance, be careful not to over-analyze your piano technique. It can drive you a bit crazy, if you know what I mean. Good luck.

You're right; still, What is the best sound you get and the most relaxing way to play isolated tones?

[richard black]

The regulation of speed of the downward movement of a key is much more easily realized if it is initiated at the shoulder.

Or at the brain?

[jinfiesto]

Umm, no.  By disconnecting the wrist, you lose all power that you can access from the shoulders.

Umm. No, he didn't say he was looking for power. If you're playing rapidly and trying to play lightly and disconnected, which disconnect kind of implies, the idea is to remove the weight from your hands. Therefore, you do not want the power that the shoulders provide. If he's trying to play disconnected and slow, I don't see what the problem is, so I assumed he's trying to play detache at a higher speed. By the way, playing fast and truly playing loud is mutually exclusive, although it is possible to give the illusion of playing loud. Anyways, given that you're trying to play fast and disconnected, trying to implement your shoulder weight is probably a waste of time. It'll also probably be the cause of unnecessary tension.

[ramseytheii]

To regulate tone volume you certainly don't stiffen your joints, but rather you change your touch.  These days I think "mass" has even less to do with it, because personally, when playing soft and delicate music, I feel the usage of the back muscles just as much as in playing loud, chordal music.  True physical control will come from the proper physical and rhythmical alignment of the apparatus from back, through shoulder, to elbow, wrist and hand.

When discussing the use of the various parts of the body in making music, it is very important never to leave rhythm out of the equation, because you can contort yourself all you want: if it doesn't share the rhythm of the music, it won't help you play the piano.

Please feel free to disagree, in fact I hope someone does, but I think weight is really an illusion.  Like I said, in playing soft and delicate music I can definitely feel the contribution of remote areas such as the back.  If that is the case, how can you say you add weight by playing from a more remote location?  You should always be playing with your whole body, no matter what the volume. 

Then in that case, what does make the volume?  I'm not really sure, I would guess force, which I suppose in physical terms would be velocity.  Somehow, I can do it, but not say exactly how.

At the same time, you need to be able to control a wide degree of touch possibilities.  The basic are the "ins and the outs," as I like to say, that is, stroking the key outward, and pushing it in.  In all other permutations, I think it is primarily the imagination that takes control.  Brendel once wrote a whole treatise on which part of the finger produces which orchestral sound (fingertip, fingerpad, etc), and I have to believe that that is largely in his imagination.  The feeling of weightlessness of arm is another example of this, that can produce a beautiful and haunting sound, but somehow it is all in the imagination.

Therefore, don't be so scientific, and instead of relying on abstract physical descriptions that are probably inaccurate, find the right feeling, and describe it later, in poetical terms.

Walter Ramsey

[paulpiano]

At the same time, you need to be able to control a wide degree of touch possibilities.  The basic are the "ins and the outs," as I like to say, that is, stroking the key outward, and pushing it in.  In all other permutations, I think it is primarily the imagination that takes control.  Brendel once wrote a whole treatise on which part of the finger produces which orchestral sound (fingertip, fingerpad, etc), and I have to believe that that is largely in his imagination.  The feeling of weightlessness of arm is another example of this, that can produce a beautiful and haunting sound, but somehow it is all in the imagination.

Make it simple, please!
The question was: Which part of the body should be used to play and control isolated notes? How do you regulate the tone volume exactly and faultlessly?
Let's say I play D#, I look at the black key and I have the choice, I can play it with my finger alone, I can also choose to play with my hand, my forearm, etc.. Is the movement initiated at the knuckles, at the wrist, at the elbow or at the shoulder?

[ramseytheii]

Make it simple, please!
The question was: Which part of the body should be used to play and control isolated notes? How do you regulate the tone volume exactly and faultlessly?
Let's say I play D#, I look at the black key and I have the choice, I can play it with my finger alone, I can also choose to play with my hand, my forearm, etc.. Is the movement initiated at the knuckles, at the wrist, at the elbow or at the shoulder?

Sorry I wasn't simple.  I meant to say, I don't ever play it in any of those ways.  I don't ever play a note with just a movement of the finger, or with the hand, or with the forearm, I play with my whole body, every time, every note.  The idea that going back successive joints will affect the volume is false, finger being the softest, back being the loudest.  It just isn't true.  When I play at soft, dolce levels, I am engaging the back muscles.  I can feel it without doubt.  That in itself proves the theory of successive joints or muscles making bigger sound is false.  If it was true, you wouldn't use back muscles to create soft and delicate sounds.

You seem to have an isolation mania: isolate a muscle that will play an isolated note at an isolated volume without any context.  Are you a supporter of Ron Paul?  Just Kidding.  I don't think there is an answer to your question, because I think it's an inappropriate question.  To play anything at any volume, your whole body is engaged.

Walter Ramsey

[paulpiano]

Sorry I wasn't simple.  I meant to say, I don't ever play it in any of those ways.  I don't ever play a note with just a movement of the finger, or with the hand, or with the forearm, I play with my whole body, every time, every note.  The idea that going back successive joints will affect the volume is false, finger being the softest, back being the loudest.  It just isn't true.  When I play at soft, dolce levels, I am engaging the back muscles.  I can feel it without doubt.  That in itself proves the theory of successive joints or muscles making bigger sound is false.  If it was true, you wouldn't use back muscles to create soft and delicate sounds.

You've already answered my question in this paragraph!
Thank you!
Intuitively, I play isolated notes the same way you're describing your playing in this paragraph!

[ramseytheii]

Walter Ramsey

[slobone]

By the way, playing fast and truly playing loud is mutually exclusive, although it is possible to give the illusion of playing loud.

So much for Volodos...

[PaulNaud]

In performance, be careful not to over-analyze your piano technique. It can drive you a bit crazy, if you know what I mean. Good luck.

I'm very perplexed about piano technique because I noticed that some piano pedagogues tell you don't do this or don't do that and some others tell you exactly the opposite. If you watch playing some of the best pianists on this planet you'll notice that none of them play the same way, and I'm not talking only musically but also physically. It is sometimes disconcerting because their movements are really totally different.

[counterpoint]

To answer the initial question (Production of non legato tones) you should think what's the difference between "legato tones" and "non legato tones" on the piano.

Because every note on the piano is just produced by a hammer striking (1, 2 or 3) strings - there doesn't exist a real legato on the piano. The difference between legato and non legato is just an illusion. Of course the duration of the notes is shortened when playing non legato. But you can play completely "legato" from the view of note durations - and it will possibly not sound legato at all. If you don't know how to make the impression of playing legato, everything will sound "non legato".

So the really interesting question would be: how to play legato?

Good question 

[PaulNaud]

Because every note on the piano is just produced by a hammer striking (1, 2 or 3) strings - there doesn't exist a real legato on the piano. The difference between legato and non legato is just an illusion. Of course the duration of the notes is shortened when playing non legato. But you can play completely "legato" from the view of note durations - and it will possibly not sound legato at all. If you don't know how to make the impression of playing legato, everything will sound "non legato".

This discussion, of course, might lead us to a dead-end. Legato does exist on the piano because as long as you hold down the key, the string will continue to resonate. And yes, you can play legato on the piano and you can even play legatissimo which really means the holding of one note untill two or more are played, thus causing a harmonious formation, as, for instance, in the smallest sound combination with syncopated pedalling

[faulty_damper]

I'm very perplexed about piano technique because I noticed that some piano pedagogues tell you don't do this or don't do that and some others tell you exactly the opposite. If you watch playing some of the best pianists on this planet you'll notice that none of them play the same way, and I'm not talking only musically but also physically. It is sometimes disconcerting because their movements are really totally different.

This makes a naive assumption that just because everyone can travel 65mph on the highway that everyone is doing so the same way.  Some people use a lower gear to travel the same speed.  Others use the highest gear.  And both these types of drivers will get to the same destination at the same time.  Which kind of driver do you think is wiser?

[faulty_damper]

The regulation of speed of the downward movement of a key is much more easily realized if it is initiated at the shoulder.
For the production of non legato tones, the wrist and all other joints of transmission, I think, should be firmly set, to convey the needed energy to the keys. Isn't it the best way to regulate the tone volume exactly and faultlessly?

The answer to your question really depends on context.  Taken out of context, you'll get many responses as you do here.  When you propose this question about a specific passage, answers will become much more aligned.

[paulpiano]

The answer to your question really depends on context.  Taken out of context, you'll get many responses as you do here.  When you propose this question about a specific passage, answers will become much more aligned.

In my opinion context doesn't matter, because I'm really specifying the production of non legato tones or any isolated notes. Of course the notes could be played Forte or Piano.

But thanks to Walter Ramsey, he has already replied  to this topic:

Sorry I wasn't simple.  I meant to say, I don't ever play it in any of those ways.  I don't ever play a note with just a movement of the finger, or with the hand, or with the forearm, I play with my whole body, every time, every note.  The idea that going back successive joints will affect the volume is false, finger being the softest, back being the loudest.  It just isn't true.  When I play at soft, dolce levels, I am engaging the back muscles.  I can feel it without doubt.  That in itself proves the theory of successive joints or muscles making bigger sound is false.  If it was true, you wouldn't use back muscles to create soft and delicate sounds.

[rc]

I'm of the camp that would say this sort of question is overanalysis and that it would be easier to simply listen for the effect you're after and aim for physical ease.  I believe that we often consciously interfere with how our body plays by trying too hard to control it all, thinking too much.  Maybe you've experienced a time where you're playing something easy that you KNOW how to do, but suddenly you start thinking about what your knuckles are doing and the whole thing falls apart. 

If we just focus on the sound and physical ease, the back, hands, fingers, etc. will all naturally align and do what's necessary to make the music.  By focusing on ease we can over time eliminate unnecessary tension or muscle involvement, refining the whole process.  Our minds are powerful, but if applied wrong can cause more harm than good, frustrating our progress.