Do master pianists practice hands separate?

[paulpiano]

We've been talking about slow playing for a while. What about hands separate? Is it a personal matter? What do you think?

[counterpoint]

To me, practising hands separate is an absurd idea. There are some exceptions of course.

[jakev2.0]

Do master pianists practice hands separate?

Yes.

[nyonyo]

To me, practising hands separate is an absurd idea. There are some exceptions of course.

Why is it an absurd idea? For example let's use Arabesque No.1 by Debussy. If one cannot even play the triplet melody correctly, why one should practice hand together??

[ramseytheii]

If your approach is inherently physical, hands separate won't help, because it doesn't help practice "motions," or anything else people who's approach is physical insist have to be practiced constantly.

The purpose for practicing hands separate is not dogmatic; for some pieces the idea "hands separate" doesn't apply, like Bach fugues (the voices are often split between hands).  Practicing hands separate isn't an inherently physical practice, it's rather for listening and practicising to shape melodies and passages unto themselves. 

It's also to get away from the rote physicalness of practice, and to learn the piece on a different level from the physical.  There may be those who will respond, why practice hands separate?  You can just play all the parts, and emphasize the one you want to hear.  But that just reinforces rote physical practice.  It's actually much harder - but better in the long run - to learn parts as if they were separate entities, and not always insist on attaching them to each other physically.

Some music is so simple as to not require this approach (most pieces with Alberti bass), and some is so complicated you have to hear the parts separately to really know it (look at Variation no.11 from the Goldberg Variations).

My overall point relates to the different types of knowledge that go into learning music.  The primary source is always aural knowledge, and it should be the one focussed on the most.  These days however, the science of playing the piano has overcome the art, and as such, you see most people harping on physical solutions to aural problems.

If you turn in time back to the days of C.P.E. Bach, you will find that the physical plays a minor role in his treatise on the art of keyboard playing.  These days, books about playing piano mention the role of creative listening as an afterthought.

Another level of knowledge is the intellectual - you wil hear different names for this, but it means the level where you analyze, conceptualize, identify.  This is the kind of the knowledge where if you have a memory slip, you can say, I know in eight bars it modulates to the dominant, and you can improvise your way to the next point.  Or this is the knowledge that if your teacher says, "start at the development section," you know and remember where that is.

Yet another is of course the physical, which in my opinion is the most unreliable.  The physical level depends on a lot of circumstances being replicable.  For those that depend most on the physical, they tend to get tripped up if they have to play in radically different situations: stages with slopes; benches that creak or can't be adjusted; different lighting; even ivory vs. plastic keys.  I have seen it all.  I don't mean to be overly negative about it, but only to emphasize that if you rely on this and this alone, you are in danger.

Hands separate practices the aural knowledge, or aural memory; and the intellectual.  It practices physical on a smaller level, because you aren't practicing the coordination between two hands, but rather the security of one hand alone.  But I think the amount it gives to physical knowledge is small enough that it doesn't really count as a method for improving that knowledge.

I hope there is some sense in there!

Walter Ramsey

[jakev2.0]

It really isn't this big of a deal. It's never a bad idea to play hands separately if the ultimate logic of that is to play hands together eventually.

1) Am I able to play the passage perfectly (in the sense of rhythm, articulation, balance) at a slow speed, hands together?

==> If not, practice with hands separately until the control is there.
==> If yes, increase tempo gradually.

and PS: for almost all pianists, playing difficult fugues (C# min Book II) hands separately is crucial for playing them properly. It has nothing to do with where the voice is. It has to do with reducing complexities into manageable tidbits.

[thalberg]

I agree with Walter.  (Goldberg Variation 11 was a good example-it drove me crazy)

Also, overall, when I was younger I practiced hands separately for physical coordination, but as I got older I simply didn't need to do it for that reason anymore.

[counterpoint]

Why is it an absurd idea? For example let's use Arabesque No.1 by Debussy. If one cannot even play the triplet melody correctly, why one should practice hand together??

I remember learning this piece by playing ve-ry slowly with hands together just from start. Of course I have had played many simpler pieces with 3 against 2 movement before.

The only piece I remember I had practised hands separate was op.10-12. It wasn't of great benefit, since I played it too fast. Then I needed a very long time to synchronize the two hands and I was not relaxed at all.

[amelialw]

of course. My teacher is a pianist too and she always practices pieces H.S first.

[slobone]

Well, I'm not a master pianist so maybe my opinion is worthless but --

I spend very little time practicing HS, except under two circumstances. One is when one part is so difficult that I can't even learn it HT.

The other, more common, is when each hand is a separate voice or voices, and I want to really hear how they sound in isolation so I can shape each one into an independent voice before putting them together. This happens a lot in Bach, especially the Goldbergs.

[ramseytheii]

Well, I'm not a master pianist so maybe my opinion is worthless but --

I spend very little time practicing HS, except under two circumstances. One is when one part is so difficult that I can't even learn it HT.

The other, more common, is when each hand is a separate voice or voices, and I want to really hear how they sound in isolation so I can shape each one into an independent voice before putting them together. This happens a lot in Bach, especially the Goldbergs.

For me that's really the main reason to practice HS.  It has to do more with creating simultaneous living and breathing phrases than with getting a physical solution to a problem.

I still don't find HS, dogmatically speaking, a worthwhile approach to playing fugues where the voices traverse the hands.  I guess I just can't see how.  It would be useful to play a voice that goes between the hands exactly as you would in performance, without the outer notes; what I mean is play it as you would with the hands divided; but it doesn't make musical sense to just "separate the hands" in fugues, because they aren't about hands at all.  A piece like Mephisto Waltz, in that crazy section towards the end where the RH is leaping in one direction and the LH in another, is all about the hands, but a fugue just isn't.

Walter Ramsey

[schubertiad]

I think that hands separate practice has enormous benefits both technically and musically. Any new techniques or movements are much more effectively practised hands separate since you can focus your entire concentration on what you are physically doing. I suspect many pianists who use strange, awkard, painful looking movements for tricky bits in pieces often launched straight into H.T practice and never focused on what they were doing physically.
As people have pointed out, playing H.S is also a very effective way of simplifying the score, which allows you to see the details of the piece, for example playing just the left hand of a chopin nocturne without the melody allows you to see the harmonic progressions much more clearly than playing H.T. Having said that, H.S practice is by no means the only way of seeing the 'bare bones' of a piece. For the inside voice in a fugue, sharing the voice between the hands (without the upper and lower voices) is just as crucial as playing the voices which are played by only one hand. In fact this middle voice is always the one i learn first.
For other pieces, the distinction between left hand and right hand is often not as important as the distinction between tune and accompaniment. Take for example schumann's intermezzo from faschingsschwank aus wien, or grieg's arietta. By splitting these pieces into 3 layers - the bass, the upper melody, and the 'filling' and practising each separately, you get to see every part of the piece's structure, which in turn helps your understanding and memorization of the piece.

[slobone]

I still don't find HS, dogmatically speaking, a worthwhile approach to playing fugues where the voices traverse the hands.  I guess I just can't see how.  It would be useful to play a voice that goes between the hands exactly as you would in performance, without the outer notes; what I mean is play it as you would with the hands divided; but it doesn't make musical sense to just "separate the hands" in fugues, because they aren't about hands at all.  A piece like Mephisto Waltz, in that crazy section towards the end where the RH is leaping in one direction and the LH in another, is all about the hands, but a fugue just isn't.

I used spend some time practicing each voice in a Bach fugue by itself, whether it crossed hands or not. But then I made an interesting discovery: in most fugues, the voices aren't really fully independent. Usually a voice starts out strong at its entrance, but somewhere along the line it starts playing a supporting role, and becomes kind of uninteresting as a melody. So I stopped trying to play them as if all the voices were equal.

Same holds for canons, by the way, such as in the Goldberg's. In the first canon, Variation 3, if you try to play one voice by itself you'll find there are places where the melody just peters out.

[ramseytheii]

I used spend some time practicing each voice in a Bach fugue by itself, whether it crossed hands or not. But then I made an interesting discovery: in most fugues, the voices aren't really fully independent. Usually a voice starts out strong at its entrance, but somewhere along the line it starts playing a supporting role, and becomes kind of uninteresting as a melody. So I stopped trying to play them as if all the voices were equal.

Same holds for canons, by the way, such as in the Goldberg's. In the first canon, Variation 3, if you try to play one voice by itself you'll find there are places where the melody just peters out.

I disagree..  I find something beautiful in every bar!

Walter Ramsey

[jakev2.0]

Moreover, the left hand in Goldberg Variation no. 3 is HARD.

[slobone]

I disagree..  I find something beautiful in every bar!

Did I say it wasn't beautiful? But sometimes the beauty comes from the vertical blending of the voices, rather than from anything that's going on in the voices individually.

[slobone]

Moreover, the left hand in Goldberg Variation no. 3 is HARD.

Indeed, but I was only talking about the two canonic voices in the right hand.

[ramseytheii]

Did I say it wasn't beautiful? But sometimes the beauty comes from the vertical blending of the voices, rather than from anything that's going on in the voices individually.

No, but you said the voices "peter out," which indicates Bach lost interest!  And I have to say, I find something beautiful and interesting in every bar; I never feel a petering out.

Walter Ramsey

[pianorin]

i practised fantasie impromptu with my hands separate. 

[paulpiano]

Yesterday I came across a comment made by Jorge Bolet about practising. He said that he practices hands separately and slowly. He doesn't get anything to tempo untill really know the piece. Also in the same book, Tamas Vasary likes to be able to play the two hands separately from memory.

[slobone]

No, but you said the voices "peter out," which indicates Bach lost interest!  And I have to say, I find something beautiful and interesting in every bar; I never feel a petering out.

Again, I'm not talking about any one bar as a whole. I'm talking about what happens to the individual voices within a bar. And I think you'll find, if you play any voice from a fugue or a canon in isolation, that there are places where it ceases to be a fully self-sufficient melody, and instead plays the role of providing harmony for the other parts. This has nothing to do with whether the music is beautiful or not.

[paulpiano]

Again, I'm not talking about any one bar as a whole. I'm talking about what happens to the individual voices within a bar. And I think you'll find, if you play any voice from a fugue or a canon in isolation, that there are places where it ceases to be a fully self-sufficient melody, and instead plays the role of providing harmony for the other parts. This has nothing to do with whether the music is beautiful or not.

If you consider the piano as an instrument that can replace the orchestra, then each voice is an instrument and each of the instrumentalists practices his own part before a general rehearsal. We should do the same at the piano.

[general disarray]

All this mutual exclusivity!  HS vs. HT!   Lord, it's so obvious, isn't it?  If the texture is so complex that you are getting a migraine trying to wade through HT, then break the damned thing down into HS.  Right?  Once you get HS, then put it together?  Hello.

Is that so hard?  HS at the beginning naturally isn't the whole picture, but you know that, right?  HS helps you develop independence.  Integrating both hands, once each hand has its independent security, you get the whole picture:  ergo, interdependence.

Breaking the whole into its parts doesn't destroy the whole:  it enables you to strengthen the individual parts.  Putting them together is the next step in the process:  Integration.  You are able to think "wholistically" at this point. 

Gawd.  Threads like this make me yearn for the "Hammerklavier" debate.

[m]

By no means pretending to be a master pianist...

well 

maybe that's why I still practice HS all the time   

[gerry]

Like most technical approaches, there is no rule that covers all practice situations. It really depends on the piece. With some pieces, separate hand practice would be wasted effort as they should be realized in their entirety as much as possible during practice, but some - I'm thinking particularly of Chopin Etude Op25 #2 where, at least for me, I needed to practice the right-hand alone in order to achieve the proper flow. Adding the bass in later eliminated the tendency to accent the wrong right-hand notes. I was working on several of the etudes this evening so they're fresh in my mind and there are many of them that call for separate hand practice. These types of questions to me are pointless as in the end it's up to the individual. Practice the way you need to to achieve the result you want.

[dan101]

Hands separate practice is a wonderful method, as long as you proceed to hands together immediately upon feeling comfortable. Hopefully, that comfort zone comes sooner than later, as a piece really develops faster once the hands are playing together. 

[point of grace]

i think best pianists practice hands separate first of all... besides its the best way to get the pieces right and nice, and perfectly learned.
and for memory it´s also good.
it has a lot of benefits that will help more to the people who do this way.

for me it has to do with PERFECTION in every piece of music.

[franzliszt2]

I ALWAYS do hands seperatly. I mean how on earth can you play summit together if you can't seperatly?

I make sure each hand is memorised seperatly...especially LH. I always practice seperate voices as well in ALL cases of double notes or more.

[goldentone]

Ah, but it is a gem. 

I can testify that after trying out Chang's HS approach of alternating hands in short bursts of 5-15 second increments, that the technical results and my progress amazed me.  While in theory it may seem that there would be no physical benefit to HS practice, experience for me has proven otherwise. 

The secret is the short bursts.  One hand is playing and the other at rest.  The hand at rest is absorbing what it just played.  Each alternation there is a tangible improvement, and I noticed it extends to my sightreading as well.  The brain is freed to absorb things much faster. 

I think the best approach is to utilize both HS and HT in the learning of a piece. 

[franzliszt2]

Ah, but it is a gem. 

I can testify that after trying out Chang's HS approach of alternating hands in short bursts of 5-15 second increments, that the technical results and my progress amazed me.  While in theory it may seem that there would be no physical benefit to HS practice, experience for me has proven otherwise. 

The secret is the short bursts.  One hand is playing and the other at rest.  The hand at rest is absorbing what it just played.  Each alternation there is a tangible improvement, and I noticed it extends to my sightreading as well.  The brain is freed to absorb things much faster. 

I think the best approach is to utilize both HS and HT in the learning of a piece. 

No the secret is playing it hands seperatly for however long it takes to get it. What a waste of time doing 10-15 seconds.

And how on earth in theory does hands seperatly not work?? I mean it's common sense that you can't play 2 handed if you can't play 1! When people play 2 handed and can't play one handed (bad pianists) it sounds messy, uneven, not clean, but it sounds semi-passable to some a lot of people.

[gerry]

Separate hand practice also helps reveal left-hand motifs that might otherwise go unnoticed. Rachmaninoff, in particular, incorporated a lot of left-hand melodic movement that often mirrored right-hand activity. I find sometimes that when I play left hand alone in his works, it's almost like playing a solo piece in and of itself. As of Prokofieff - separate hand practice is a given. I would hazard a guess that yes, the masters do practice hands separate--although maybe at their level of virtuosity they may not need to do so as often as us great unwashed.

[thalberg]

No the secret is playing it hands seperatly for however long it takes to get it. What a waste of time doing 10-15 seconds.

I think he meant you keep doing a series of 10-15 second bursts until you get it.  Not that you practice 10-15 seconds and then stop altogether.  To explain, let's say it would normally take you 15 minutes to get the LH and 15 minutes to get the right hand.  You'd alternate them in 10-15 second bursts and then in 30 minutes you'd have both hands.  Or, if the method works as well as he says, you'd have both hands in less than 30 minutes.

And how on earth in theory does hands seperatly not work??

The word "theory" means "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural." So he's saying he can understand why some people here might propose or conjecture why hands separately would not work, but he is saying he believes otherwise, as do you.  So you two agree.


I thought goldentone's post was interesting and I'm going to try that method of practice.

[franzliszt2]

15 seconds would not work for me becasue I practice very slowly. I usually work about 1/4 speed, so I would not get very far ever 15 seconds, plau I always go over and correct things. I can practice for hours hands seperatly, and it works perfectly well.  I always start learning a piece hands seperatly, and only put them together when I have memorised them seperatly at full speed. Then when they go together it doesn't take long to get to full speed, and it's much cleaner and the memory is very secure.

[goldentone]

Yes, it is a continuous alternation between the right and left hand.  You section off so many measures to work on and then go at it for as long as you want.   By the time the current hand is finished, the resting hand has absorbed and rested and is ready to go. 

15 seconds would not work for me becasue I practice very slowly.

I understand you have your method, but what if this way of practicing gave you a quantum leap in your practice?  All you have to do is just spend a little time with it and you will see the results.  You could just make it a part of what you already do. 

When I tried it the first time I felt like I had accomplished in just a few minutes what would have taken at least a week or more as I would have normally practiced.

Here is the website:
https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

[franzliszt2]

I'm already happy with my practice methods and they work perfectly for me, becasue I invented it to suit me. I don't go by methods, they rarely work.

Try learning a Godowsky etude with your 15 second method and you will soon see it just won't work, becasue complex music takes a lot of time and repetition.

[gerryjay]

I'm already happy with my practice methods and they work perfectly for me, because I invented it to suit me. I don't go by methods, they rarely work.

Try learning a Godowsky etude with your 15 second method and you will soon see it just won't work, because complex music takes a lot of time and repetition.

excuse me, but i can´t get anymore of this: how old are you? 8?

[franzliszt2]

19 actually.

It's not that hard to understand, I practice my own way and get results. I use my own methods which I invent on the spot to solve a difficulty in a piece. I don't decide that I should do a certain period of time doing this, I simply do whatever it takes, regardless of time. If you try to learn a big piece like a Rachmaninoff concerto, Liszt etudes, Chopin etdues etc..... the 15 second method will not work at all....the brain will not take information in, and the fingers certainly won't

[gerryjay]

It's not that hard to understand, I practice my own way and get results. I use my own methods which I invent on the spot to solve a difficulty in a piece. I don't decide that I should do a certain period of time doing this, I simply do whatever it takes, regardless of time. If you try to learn a big piece like a Rachmaninoff concerto, Liszt etudes, Chopin etdues etc..... the 15 second method will not work at all....the brain will not take information in, and the fingers certainly won't

way better. i understand and respect your point, it´s just the way you expressed yourself  that did seem a bit arrogant. sorry if i take it wrong. 

[tds]

me, no master pianist whatsoever, do hand seperately...and while doing so, me also try to be aware of harmony, physical balance and patterns.

dignity, love and joy

[guendola]

I find it much more logical and easier to explore a piece of music with HT, even if I have to play very slowly. This way, I can incorporate musical expression from the very first day. When I used to practise HS a lot, I had to spend much more time on the music itself apart from learning the technical aspects.

I do HS only when it makes sense. That means, to figure out fingerings, learn difficult parts (I am not a master pianist and even they might have their moments) and to obtain speed.

A special case is polyphonic music such as fugues. There I do play each voice separataly, regardless of later fingering and when putting it together, I learn to sing each voice and try to understand as much as possible, what they do to each other. But for practising, I do it the same way as mentioned before.

Another special case is music where the melody is embedded in the rest, but basically, that's a technical problem of the type "difficult parts".

Furthermore, I think that a lot of piano music is written in a way, that both hands can cooperate and help each other, especially with good fingering, and sometimes music only makes sense when you play both hands. And of course this can't be discovered until you start playing HT.

[lostinidlewonder]

Practicing hands together does not require that you play every single note on the score hands together. You have to be intelligent and reduce the score so that the hands together is easily achievable then you methodically add the rest of the notes. This process is essential, the mindless application of seperate hands then immediately to both hands simply will reduce the efficiency of your musical learning rate.

This concept applies to all levels of piano music even the early beginner. If I ask an early beginner to study a new phrase of music, I always get them to play at least one note in the one hand hand while they focus playing the other. As you get better you realise you can usually play everything at once, but even now and then we must leave out a particular note or two because it causes too much problems to practice comfortably immediately.

[journeyyourmind]

  Hands seperate has it's purpose. There is absolutely no denying that. I suppose there is just a balance.

[pianowolfi]

To me it was a magical moment when I could play HT the first time as a child. It was so fascinating to experience that one hand can do something totally different than the other. It's one of my crucial experiences with piano playing and I would never want to miss this in my life. Still it has something very special and magical to me every time I touch a piano. So I mainly practice HT. I *love* to practice slowly and to enjoy every single moment and every single combination of notes and voices. I do HS practice when necessary, for instance in a Chopin Etude.

[gerryjay]

i was reading through this thread, and first i must thank everybody for the valid ideas. but then it seems useless the attempt to rule such a point, because every pianist has her/his own approach to master whatever. i really think that it´s interesting to know about other ways, but only playing (and trying) one will discover how to solve the problems and get there.

about the pros, i must add something. there are the ones who don´t practice HS because they don´t need anymore, and the ones who think it´s always an useful tool. again, it´s up to ourselves to discover what works and what does not.

[mennea]

I’m an amateur player, but I think I understand what the HS promoters are trying to say. I believe that the object of playing well is the ability to hear both melody and harmony together yet distinctly apart. The piano is supposed to be a small orchestra, after all. Practicing HT usually ends up sounding monophonic, as compared to the goal of a more interesting and aesthetically pleasing polyphonic sound no matter what the piece, and not necessarily Bach and other polyphonic composers. Harmony is as important (and some would say, more important) to music than simply the melody.   In fact, I’ve discovered, even when the voices are not entirely in sequence, as you find it written on the sheet, but slightly off from each other, it actually adds to the musical performance. In short, it sounds better, and is more memorable.  When using HT approach one ends up playing sequentially, which often means that one sounds like he’s banging chords together. Very little of musical expressiveness comes out. One knows how to play the notes but NOT the music. 

The problem many people encounter when playing HS is that when they put HT, after practicing HS, it feels like they are learning the piece all over again. The mistake they make is the way they practice HS. They let the non-playing hand just hang to the side. WRONG. The non playing hand should be resting on the keyboard at all time, so as to allow the body to get used to the proper angle of playing. The non playing hand should be near those notes where it would be when the other hand is playing its part. When one has mastered playing both hands, putting them together becomes easier. Of course one must go slower at first and then rev-up to speed.
In the end one must remember the old saying: you must learn to walk before you can run.

[gerry]

I found that while learning the Ravel D Maj concerto, I had to practice HS; HT just wouldn't have worked.

[slobone]

I found that while learning the Ravel D Maj concerto, I had to practice HS; HT just wouldn't have worked.

HT is even more difficult with his other concerto...