HOw to cope with raging and frustated boy learning the piano

[dora96]

HI,

My son is 10 years old, he starts learning the piano. He was learning piano when he was 4 years old, and then he gave up after 6 years old. He is picking up again.  He can play well the first time. After the second time, he can't play any more, stubble, making the wrong notes. He gets so frustated, sometimes, he nearly wants to mash the piano. Call the paino " stupid" and he cries and thrown himself on the floor. I just shake my head. What 's on earth, playing the piano will get like this. I try to help him, and that makes matter even worse. He turns  on me, and said " I don't need your help". We  ended up in WWIII. I don't know what to do. I thought it is good thing for him to learn the piano, hoping that music can calm his soul. He likes it when he can play without making mistakes, and also in front of people and they are praising him. Please members help me,  do you come across this situation ?

[lostinidlewonder]

Your sons frustration must occur in many other things in his life, not just the piano. Does he get impatient if other things in his life doesn't go as he likes? Does he get upset when he plays a computer game and loses at that? Sometimes children have to learn that things can't always go their way, and losing your temper isn't the way to go around it.

I have some students who expect a lot from themselves and get embarrassed and angry if they make a mistake in front of me. I always say to them its not about being correct all the time, but knowing when you do something wrong and knowing how to correct yourself. Throwing a tantrum won't help correcting yourself.

Likewise you can simply call out. WRONG when he makes a mistake to provoke him. Then you can say, I've tried to be nice to you and you didn't want that.

[hyrst]

Do you help break the work and practice time into manageable amounts - where he can be mostly correct and concentrate?

Don't try resolviing the problems while he is angry. Catch the problems before they occur by watching for signs and keeping things manageable.  Away from the piano,  teach him to recognise the feeling of building frustration and to choose other ways of dealing wit hit before it gets too much. 

Use STOP... THINK... ACT 
Locate the feeling somewhere in his body and recognise it when he feels it so he can learn to change what he is doing.  What are his choices when he feels like that?

Playing the piano is hard work and can be frustrating, but we learn to find ways to see where we are progressing and how to manage the feelings of frustration - when to back off and when to use them for motivation.  As parents, it is our job to teach children these things - they aren't natural.  In the heat of conflict is not the most helpful time, though.

[dan101]

'Coping with challenges' is the number one concern to address with your son. Also, he is probably acting out his frustration a bit more because you are both his teacher and parent.

Keeping a cool head and tackling one problem at a time is the key. Also, try joking around a bit during the lesson. A light-hearted approach and a shorter lesson time are things that I would consider in your situation.

Good luck.

[pianowolfi]

Whom does he take lessons with?

[jakev2.0]

Encourage him to play; don't force him.

If you use force, he will hate playing.   You will both be miserable.  Under these circumstances he will never touch the piano again. Someone who doesn't want to play the piano won't become good at it.

If you encourage him, he will enjoy playing when he does come around to it. If he never touches the piano again, at least it won't be accompanied by guilt, misery, resentment and other nasty feelings.

[Bob]

I remember being frustrated when I was young.  You have an awesome idea in mind, but can't make it happen in real life.  Extremely frustrating. 

When he calms down, I would give him something that is on his level.  If his playing isn't what it used to be, then that's how it is.  You can change it and you can't force it to happen.  It takes a lot of work.

But if he has something easy and satisfying, he still gets the high off that and then has a place to start from again.

It's probably something with physical techique, note reading, or how to practice.

I would have him take lessons from someone else.  His mom's always telling him what to do, and then to have your mom tell you what to do with music and have her know exactly what you know and don't know?  I don't think I'd like that much.  Clean your room, wash the dishes... and you missed a note.  I think the praise would be different too.  Would you accept praise from someone you were mad at and had to live with all the time?  The outside teacher gets them out of the home environment, leaves little time with that person compared with the rest of the week, and automatically gives that person an air of authority because they are strange and unfamiliar.  If a stranger compliments you and they are a music teacher, then that has a lot more oomph than if you mom says it, doesn't it?

Yeah.  I would definitely have an outside music teacher.  If he doesn't want your help, then he doesn't want it.  Always be there if he asks for it though.  Don't force him to practice.  If he wants to figure it out himself, then so be it.  He can always ask the outside teacher for help.

If you're playing piano and he's just starting, I would be careful that he considers piano "his" and not "your" thing to do.  If he's doing it to compete with you or just because you do, that's not going to last.

It's always possible he has a learning disability.  If he can't read the notes, then that's going to be frustrating.  At least you found out now though and can start adapting.  I doubt that's it though.

It's possible the music is too difficult.  It's hard to read lots of notes without some theory.  The hands take awhile to coordinate.  It just takes time, esp at 10.  He's not nearly done developing. 

It sounds like he wants some independence. 

Easier music is always an option.  If he's been stepping up on more and more challenging pieces than eventually he'll hit his top and be stuck at that level of difficulty.  Lots of work for very little progress.  At 10, he probably doesn't understand much about practicing.  I wouldn't make it too much like work either if you want him to continue with it.  If music is something that takes a great deal of mental energy and is always challenging, what fun is that?  But a lot of music at an easier level can keep him interested and moving his fingers.

If he enjoys playing complete pieces, then that's what he likes.  Who can blame him?  Just keep the music easy enough so it balances the amount of work and the amount of full-length playing.

That's my guess.  He's probably frustrated with some aspect of the piano that he can't do.  He doesn't want your help because you're his mother.  He wants to do it himself.  Although it may be too big of a challenge for him to do.  Who has it all figured out?  You might point that out to him -- If it was easy, everyone would do it.  Piano will always have some challenge associated with it, but you can also always play something.  Look at all the pieces he's already learned.  The flipside of the challenge element is that there's always something new and different to look forward to in the future. 

I do still remember some frustrating times when I was very young and those are kind of burned into my memory.  Maybe just keep offerring to help and to let you know if he needs anything.  It may be that he is thinking on one track.  Trying something new and different (if that's the real solution) might be a big challenge for him. 

Maybe saying something like "It's not stupid, it's just hard sometimes," would help.  It shapes his thinking rather then just dismissing something.  Because the next step is, why spend your time doing something stupid?  It may just takes some time.  Give it a good effort, then drop it, and come back later.

[dora96]

Whom does he take lessons with?

I am his teacher. I know this is the problem. I taught him when he was 4 years old. He was fine, but he got too frustrated, and his dad asked him stop playing. It  is not worth it. You see, my problem is :- I am also learning the piano after 15 years when I finished Grade 8. I thought I should equip myself not for my own sake, it is good for my children sake. I am doing Dipolma at the moment. I really can't affort to take my children to piano lesson. My own piano lesson costs me $65 hours. My daughter is also learning the piano. She is more patient but sometimes, get frustrated too. In my fiancial situation, I am not working stay at home mum. It is hard to cope with every day cost of running the houshold, mortages, school fee, bits of piece. The momey is evoperated like water each week. Besides, even though, my daughter goes to piano teacher, for practising I also need to sit next to her and help her, and keep an eye on her. She doesn't mind I coahing her and she needs it. Back to my son, because he wants to learn but he just can't control himself. I just say do it for your own enjoyment. I mean how do you know the children have the talent like some international pianists. They started young and most their parents are playing some instrument. However, none of my children wanted to play the piano, they do it because I want them to. I don't expect to make them interenational pianist. I just want to give them their inheritance now. Knowledge of music, and skill that they can have forever in their lives. Is there anywhere I can get cheap and good piano lesson for my children? So I don't have headache

[Bob]

Try the local college.  Sometimes you can find the young, eager teacher who does a good job but doesn't charge that much.

[quantum]

However, none of my children wanted to play the piano, they do it because I want them to.

Ay, there lies the rub.

There needs to be an underlying appreciation and love of playing music.  They have to feel that they are free to explore music by themselves. 

[leahcim]

There needs to be an underlying appreciation and love of playing music.  They have to feel that they are free to explore music by themselves. 

Perhaps, but from the description in post #1 it seems he thought his playing was bad by himself. Which at least suggests he appreciates music enough to care, get frustrated and lose his temper over his own playing.

Sometimes people practise for too long [a good example was the girl in the Classical Star programme who was in tears] and they just need a break, not someone telling them "try this" - if his playing is genuinely good [and hers was] and, more importantly, getting better despite his frustration, this may well be it. Just have a break and try tomorrow, or in a few hours.

Had he lost his temper because someone else thought his playing wasn't good enough then I'd see your point.

I know my own experience is similar, I hate playing - I feel physically sick just thinking about playing the piano. I do it because it's a compulsion. An obsession. If I were 10 I've no doubt I'd be in tears, and smashing the piano up. It takes an awful lot of self-control not to do that as an adult. Playing the piano, if you're one of these people that can and doesn't realise what it feels like not to be able to do it is immensely frustrating. Worse, if you're ten and someone decides you don't have a love of music, might be dumb, or are lazy, because you are frustrated at not being able to play and quite possibly cannot correlate the advice /teaching you are being given and how to apply it.

Imagine asking me for directions to somewhere you desperately want to go to, and, no matter how much you misunderstand the directions, no matter how many different people tell you, no matter how they are confident that they know how to get you there despite your tale that you've tried for years, you've been wandering around and around again and again, and are still lost, listening to other people that are there. Think of the most frustrating day you've ever had and imagine having it every day for years each time you sit at the piano. Or think of each time you've hear a piece of piano music, in an advert, on the radio and you've been motivated to play that piece. Imagine instead that every piece you hear reminds you of the fact you can't play that piece and have no idea how you ever will.

"freely exploring music by myself" is precisely what has caused pain, frustration and anything but a love of playing.

Perhaps he'd love to play if he could see a path, however long, that would lead to improved playing. At best the lad is wrong about his playing, and if he does what he is already doing that improvement will happen. At worst he'll just have asinine advice like "practise" or "use arm weight" "pronate your elbows" "imagine a beautiful tone and it'll happen" "play hanon' "no don't" "yes do" "no...it'll lead to injury" that means nothing.

At the least he needs to make progress. He needs someone to teach him in way that allows him to perceive that progress.

At that point if he doesn't care and / or isn't happy playing I think you're spot on, but from the post it could just as well be someone who really wants to be able to play but can't - and he's potentially in for a world of pain there if my experience is anything to go by. Much better to not give a crap about your playing until you discover you can play - because a love of music isn't a benefit if you can't play, it's a curse.

[richy321]

I know my own experience is similar, I hate playing - I feel physically sick just thinking about playing the piano. I do it because it's a compulsion. An obsession. If I were 10 I've no doubt I'd be in tears, and smashing the piano up. It takes an awful lot of self-control not to do that as an adult.

Aha!  We finally get a clue as to Leahcim's seemingly intractible inability to play the piano.  With that kind of conflicted motivation, it is now entirely understandable.  I had a feeling that the root of the problem was psychological, but his admission makes it pretty specific.  Clearly, he needs a shrink far more than a piano teacher.  In saying this, I don't mean to be insulting, as I have the greatest regard for that field, which happens to have been my field of study as well. 

Far from being OT, my intuition tells me that in the case of the boy, there is a real possibility that his rage reaction may have broader implications than just playing the piano, especially if he displays this type of behavior in other frustrating situations as well.  Just something to keep in mind.

Rich Y


 

[quantum]

Think of the most frustrating day you've ever had and imagine having it every day for years each time you sit at the piano. Or think of each time you've hear a piece of piano music, in an advert, on the radio and you've been motivated to play that piece. Imagine instead that every piece you hear reminds you of the fact you can't play that piece and have no idea how you ever will.

Been there, done that.  The frustration is what kept me going, along with a determination to solve the puzzle

If I were 10 I've no doubt I'd be in tears, and smashing the piano up. It takes an awful lot of self-control not to do that as an adult.

Did that too, and broke many a string.  It just took me many years to figure out such a thing is a viable form of expression when channeled with the right focus and energy.  Now I incorporate such barbaric acts in my improvised music as added breadth to the gamut of expressiveness. 

 

As others have pointed out maybe there are underlying conditions which are causing these reactions.  They are just showing themselves through musical activities. 

[leahcim]

Aha!  We finally get a clue as to Leahcim's seemingly intractible inability to play the piano.  With that kind of conflicted motivation, it is now entirely understandable.  I had a feeling that the root of the problem was psychological, but his admission makes it pretty specific.  Clearly, he needs a shrink far more than a piano teacher.  In saying this, I don't mean to be insulting, as I have the greatest regard for that field, which happens to have been my field of study as well. 

Yes, but with equal reluctance not to insult you are spotting the obvious, are about 5 years after the fact and have diagnosed the "clue" completely back to front. You could try for a spot on the Big Brother couch perhaps, they use amateur sleuths and psycho-babblers

That said, if you had a feeling why didn't you post it? You won't insult me. I'd have preferred you to have said that when you thought it in response to what you read that made you think it, rather than jump in with a "I thought that all along" after writing something else.

The worst thing is now your credibility is lost because, imagine you were my piano teacher and, instead of believing me, you decide instead that you have a feeling I'm not improving for whatever reason will suit your world view, the guy must be a cripple, a nutter, lazy or not practising or have expectations that are too high. And so on. As though somehow they are being dishonest with you, when actually it is you that is being dishonest, posting / saying one thing and, as we learn now, feeling something else

The cause of my depression is, mostly,  the result of an intractable inability to play the piano, rather than depression being the cause of that inability. The physical injury and pain in my arm are very real too.

No doubt it may not help me getting better now, as does the arm injury, but, that said, great pianists with depression are well known and, if anything, it's the "cure" that causes their playing more problems. I'm not on any medication, nor for that matter any window ledges.

But sadly you haven't solved the puzzle, merely spotted what failing to improve for years has done. Nice try though

[dora96]

Yes, but with equal reluctance not to insult you are spotting the obvious, are about 5 years after the fact and have diagnosed the "clue" completely back to front. You could try for a spot on the Big Brother couch perhaps, they use amateur sleuths and psycho-babblers

You guys properly hit the nail on the head. My boy is  10 this years. He is always very frustrated even from very young boy when he can't do something. Not just the piano even his homework (maths, English). I have stopped him playing the piano and concentrating on his homework. Funny enough, this Christmas, friends came to our house, asked him to play some songs. Songs that he learned from beginner he still remembered and played it well and perfectly. I just don't know what to do? He refused to go to the teacher. I have 4 kids. Obviously,  I only can invest more on the kid that will play the piano and interested in it which is my daughter.  I feel that it is shame, my son is not interested enough. I ask him if you don't want to play the piano, how about sports. He said he doesn't want to tie down and waste his Saturday to do training. The only thing he is interested in animals and snakes. He likes to go bush walking to find snakes and bugs. What do you think give up or still encourage him to learn the piano ? Another thing that makes it hard, because my son whines enough that we have to give up the idea he is learning the piano. Sometimes, my daughter has whined about why she has to learn the piano while her brother can get away with it. Don't get me wrong. She is interested in learning piano because of sibling rivalry. The situation, sometimes, is driven me mad. When daughter practices the piano and he is playing . If you were kid, what do you feel?

Honestly, in my church, lots of kids were playing and learning the piano. (They are adults now). Whether they are forced by their parents or willing to learn when they were young. But some of the kids, their testimonies say I thank you my parents giving them the opportunity to learn and help me all the way through, even though they attempted so often to give up. They thank their parents have vision for their kids. Sometimes, it is tough decision. I know that lots people in this forum, I have to make a fun and exciting to learn, but how to make the fun long enough to grasp the boy interest. What I mean long term? 

[richy321]

Dora,

There's nothing wrong with a boy loving snakes and critters more than music.  The important thing is that you have given him an exposure to music, which is more than most kinds get, and he had the opportunity to study it.  He might become a noted naturalist some day.


Leahcim,

OK, I am too lazy to look up you posts for the last 5 years.  If I had, your psychological perspective might have been obvious.  I was only going by your posts of the past 3 months, especially in regard to the question:  You you think that anyone can learn to play well?   There I pick up on a few clues, but there were not nearly as clear as they were in this thread.  See my post of November  13:

[/i]Mental Attitude

A relentless negativity towards even the possibility of learning to play the piano is evident in Leahcim's posts.  Regardless of the origins and rationale of this posture, it is a fact that repeating the words "I can't do it" will have a self-fulfilling effect.  This is not a mere platitude.  If you have ever done experiments in self-hypnosis, you will know that such habits have a surprisingly powerful effect.  Somehow you need to replace it with a positive, affirmative statement, even if you don't believe it initially.[/i]

Being familiar with obsessive-compulsive and depression issues, I think it is only fair that if these issues are present, acknowledgement should be made (short of a 5-year archive search) so that participants don't waste their time going off on technical and pedagogical lines of thought that would be made strictly moot given these powerful psychological factors.

Richy

[leahcim]

A relentless negativity towards even the possibility of learning to play the piano is evident in Leahcim's posts.

This is not true. A relentless fact of the result of 5 years of trying to play the piano with no results is evident in my posts. I wouldn't still be doing both - posting here or playing the piano, if I didn't think there were some possibility of learning to play.

I've replied to your self hypnosis mumbo jumbo before already. As I said, you can kid yourself that crap playing is good if you like, it won't fool anyone else and it won't make you or me a good pianist either.

If you could hypnotise someone to become a good pianist, you wouldn't be able to move for the queues. As it is, if you want to pretend to be a chicken when a man with a goatee beard says "Leicester" to get on stage or the TV and make your mates laugh, fair enough, but if someone is trying to get money from you to "improve your life" or whatever else, run a mile, moreso if they start throwing bogus medical diagnosis at you, and feigned expertise around.

I didn't suggest you wade through 5 years of posts [indeed I haven't been posting here for 5 years.]

The only time I've suggested someone read my earlier posts is to read the FIRST post I made - because, it shows clearly that I'm in more or less the same position now...except now I've a few more years of getting nowhere.

Evidently you misunderstood what I was trying to say. 5 years was a reference to the length of time I've been trying to play the piano. I didn't say I have been depressed for that long and I certainly haven't been negatively saying " i can't do it" for that long either. Neither am I obsessive-compulsive, although I used the 2 words and I guess you aren't really qualified, so this springs to mind and might be worth a read if you can manage it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinomorphism

Surely, you can understand the difference between someone who has tried something for 5 years and, after that length of time, having made no progress saying "sheesh, I can't do this" and the person you are hoping I am who has, in your mind only, been saying "I can't do it" and thus can't.

Anyway, suffice to say that, whatever your self-proclaimed expertise in self-hypnosis and obsessive-compulsive and depression issues are, might I suggest that you quit practising them here whilst you aren't that far behind? If you are really qualified somewhere then I want to officially complain to whichever buffoons give you leave to practise it on the internet. So message me your details so I can do that. Of course if you're just a random internet buffoon making your qualifications up, fair enough, no hard feelings

One thing you evidently cannot do is help anyone play the piano by posting about playing the piano - otherwise I suppose you would have done that [instead of posting the hypnosis / I know about depression, mumbo jumbo you've repeated here]

Thanks all the same.

[leahcim]

Been there, done that.  The frustration is what kept me going, along with a determination to solve the puzzle

Ok, I'll bite, what is the solution to playing the piano?

[I've gotta say q, having heard your recordings, I don't believe for one minute that you've had years and years without making any progress to state "been there done that"...even if you have had frustration from time to time, unless you've got a tale to tell there?....]