Erlkonig

[thalberg]

Hi All,

Take a listen to this Erlkonig.  The octaves are so fast you will not believe it.  Just click on the bottom piece in the list for at 35 second sample.

EDIT: I'm deleting the link.  I'm sick of the negative responses.

[retrouvailles]

I saw her perform this in May. It's the real deal.

I also saw her do some more Schubert-Liszt and the Chopin 1st concerto live in concert, among other things that aren't on that site.

[thalbergmad]

Fast but pointless.

Cute chick.

Thal

[thalberg]

Fast but pointless.

Cute chick.

Thal

Pointless?  Actually I have heard her play this live too, just like Retrouvailles.  It's really exciting and a very musical performance.  Her artistry is incredible overall, and if you doubt that, then just listen to her other selections and you'll see.

I'm glad you think she's cute.  She's my friend, and she is indeed cute.

[retrouvailles]

Yeah, I would say that sometimes her looks are better than her playing, sadly. I did enjoy her premiere of Carl Vine's 3rd sonata and her Chopin impromptus. The Schubert-Liszt, Beethoven, and Chopin 1st concerto I saw her play were a bit lacking though. Impressive octaves nonetheless.

[thalberg]

Yeah, I would say that sometimes her looks are better than her playing, sadly. I did enjoy her premiere of Carl Vine's 3rd sonata and her Chopin impromptus. The Schubert-Liszt, Beethoven, and Chopin 1st concerto I saw her play were a bit lacking though. Impressive octaves nonetheless.

Awww come on.......don't be so harsh. 

Actually Vedda Kaplinski once told her that her Schubert-Liszt was the highlight of the entire Cleveland Competition.  Maybe the night you heard her there was a problem or something.

[retrouvailles]

Yeah, that is very much a possibility. I suppose I'm just a harsh critic when it comes to those pieces. The night I heard her do the Chopin 1st concerto was most likely an off night for her, sadly. She had a few memory slips and some uneven phrasing. It happens to the best of us I guess. I'm still in awe over the Vine though. I might learn the piece, thanks to her.

[richard black]

It's not remarkably fast. I don't find it remarkably interesting, either - nor the Chopin, the only other one I sampled.

[thalberg]

It's not remarkably fast. I don't find it remarkably interesting, either - nor the Chopin, the only other one I sampled.

Not remarkably fast?  I cannot comprehend how you would think that.  Not interesting?  She is the most interesting pianist I know.  I have heard her play many times live, and everyone always remarks on her artistry.  She is a Gilmore Artist, for goodness sake.

Lately it seems like any time I start a thread I end up regretting it.  I seriously have no idea where people are coming from anymore. 

[richard black]

Not remarkably fast?  I cannot comprehend how you would think that.

Well, for a start I've heard the _song_ at least that fast. I might even have played it that fast myself.

Not interesting?  She is the most interesting pianist I know.

I really miss a bit of singing tone.

She is a Gilmore Artist

??

[dnephi]

It was amazing.  Thanks for sharing!  Makes me want to go practice...

[slobone]

What's the point of playing fast if you're going to be so sloppy about it? And she clearly stumbles and bumbles numerous times even in this short excerpt.

Looks good in an evening dress though.

[thalberg]

Clearly stumbles and bumbles?  Lacks a singing tone? Don't know what a Gilmore Artist is?

Forget this.  I'm deleting the link.  Why did I think Pianostreet would be a good place to share with people something I like?  Very stupid of me.  Will not happen again.  I'm only sorry I subjected a good friend of mine to these judgments.

[mike_lang]

Clearly stumbles and bumbles?  Lacks a singing tone? Don't know what a Gilmore Artist is?

Forget this.  I'm deleting the link.  Why did I think Pianostreet would be a good place to share with people something I like?  Very stupid of me.  Will not happen again.  I'm only sorry I subjected a good friend of mine to these judgments.

Oh, come on Thalberg...it is a good recording, but it is not infallible on the basis of her status as a Gilmore Artist.  A friend of mine was just given this award in the last year and yet, though she plays well, all she plays is not gold.  I'm happy to hear the Erlkönig, but it is by no means a superlative recording.  In any case, your friend will be subjected to much more laudatory and much more scathing judgments than what you have read thus far on the thread.  I encourage you to leave the link so that the silent masses can enjoy.

Best wishes,

Michael

[slobone]

Well the link is

https://www.elizabethschumann.com/music.html

and the only reason I'm re-posting it is because I want to completely repudiate my previous remarks*! I don't know what I was thinking -- it must have been my evil twin who was so snotty and dismissive. Listening to it again, it's actually quite forceful and exciting (and anyway it's not really fair to judge a performance on the basis of a short clip).

*except the part about her looking good in an evening dress...

[thalbergmad]

In any case, your friend will be subjected to much more laudatory and much more scathing judgments than what you have read thus far on the thread. 

Indeed she will and lets hope that she can cope with it better than the original poster.

If she can't, she aint gonna last very long.

Thal

[richard black]

Don't know what a Gilmore Artist is?

OK, I do now 'cos I looked it up. But let's not forget that all these young artist awards typically only mean that in one place, on one day, a couple of reasonably experienced listeners thought that the recipient's playing was promising. Even when the selection process is more thorough than that things can still go wrong - I've had more connection with singing programmes than piano ones, and I've heard some shocking singing from people on quite prestigious schemes, and fabulous singing from people who didn't get past the first audition round.

[jakev2.0]

The Erlkonig is quite good.  The rubato is interesting and the varied pedal (or lack of it) adds to overall excitement. 0:28 is brilliant.

Her Chopin E minor is just O.K. and her Bach is quite insipid.

[furtwaengler]

I wonder how folks can make such bold critical judgments on so short a fragment of a performance, especially considering how thrilling the short clip happens to be! But then where is the context? How does anybody who has not heard the complete performance even know what she was doing with the piece (especially in the Chopin)? And sloppy?! On what planet is that sloppy!?

I've not heard nearly enough to judge her artistry, but I've heard enough to know that there is a point beyond the speed, and there seems to be an inspiration flowing through her that would compel me to see her perform had I an opportunity.

For me the most striking thing is her name, Elizabeth Schumann...like, not Elizabeth, but Elisabeth Schumann, one of the greatest singers of all time...and she's doing Schubert Lieder transcriptions! Now it's possible that some here have never encountered the soprano Elisabeth Schumann, for her best days were before or on the edge of the era of recording, but she did record quite a bit in the 1920's and 30's. Attached is THE Elisabeth Schumann singing Gretchen am Spinnrade with Gerald Moore, recorded November 26th, 1936.

[thalberg]

This pianist is a very dear, close friend of mine.  Anyone on this forum who has played in public or in competitions knows that criticism is part of the game--but it also hurts.  Our friends are supposed to be our support. By starting this thread, I opened her up to a lot of insults.  She is a strong and resilient person--I marvel at her ability always to bounce back.  But as her friend, why would I want to give her something hurtful to bounce back from?  Can you understand?

I handled this thread wrong by calling it the fastest Erlkonig.  I should not have done that.  I should have simply introduced her as my friend without evaluating it.  I think people would have been a lot more positive or at least polite in that case because they would have understood this was personal.  I apologize for that.

Her playing has faults--she knows that--but not the faults mentioned here.  For instance Jake called her Bach "insipid."  At the Cleveland competition second round--she had played Bach, Haydn, and Chopin that round.  Even though she did not make it past the round, her Bach won her the Baroque Prize at that competition.  So her playing did have faults--but the faults were not in her Bach.  She is the best Bach player I know.

I am not claiming she is infallible--she would not claim that either--but the criticisms here are just so off target that I can only conclude people just aren't thinking or listening carefully. 

And thank you, slobone, for giving it a second listen and reconsidering!   

[thalberg]

Well, for a start I've heard the _song_ at least that fast. I might even have played it that fast myself.

Here's Richter accompanying the song:

&feature=related

Here is one of her fellow pianists from her studio:

Here is a random guy:

&feature=related

[thalbergmad]

I handled this thread wrong by calling it the fastest Erlkonig.  I should not have done that.  I should have simply introduced her as my friend without evaluating it. 

I agree with the 1st and 2nd sentences, but would add that you should not have even mentioned she was your friend.

Yes, criticism of friends do hurt, but one of the worst things you can do to a friend is not tell them your true thoughts or try to protect them from other peoples evaluations either.

I found her playing nothing special, but perhaps the clips on her site were insufficient to make a judgement.

Thal

[minor9th]

I am not claiming she is infallible--she would not claim that either--but the criticisms here are just so off target that I can only conclude people just aren't thinking or listening carefully. 

I think some people take perverse delight in slamming great artists--it shows some faux-superiority or something. For instance, claiming that Yundi Li, Lazar Berman, Lang Lang, or Ivo Pogorelich cannot play the piano is absurdly ridiculous. Of course they can play the piano--perhaps one might not agree with their interpretations, but to dismiss them as being unable to play...I'm at a loss for words.

[thalberg]

I think some people take perverse delight in slamming great artists--it shows some faux-superiority or something. For instance, claiming that Yundi Li, Lazar Berman, Lang Lang, or Ivo Pogorelich cannot play the piano is absurdly ridiculous. Of course they can play the piano--perhaps one might not agree with their interpretations, but to dismiss them as being unable to play...I'm at a loss for words.

Yes exactly.  The comments here imply that she is nowhere near a good or competent pianist, and that is just ridiculous.

[dnephi]

Competent

[jakev2.0]

When I say her Bach "is insipid", all I am presenting is my reaction to her interpretation of Bach. I don't like her Bach playing. I prefer Bach non-legato (Gould, Busoni) or at least interestingly legato (Schnabel, Feinberg). Edwin Fischer pushes the boundaries of acceptability for me. I LOATHE Angela Hewitt. Richter, a pianist I greatly admire, doesn't play Bach to my satisfaction. I really don't see what your friend's playing has contributed to Bach interpretation. It's fine if other people like it. But any other reaction than the one I've given would be dishonest on my part.

And btw, I never suggested she was incompetent in any way. If I did, I would have said something like "her rhythm could be improved" or "she should practice that passage hands seperately". But no. She's indeed a very capable pianist with a professional level of performance. I expressed admiration for her Erlkonig, as a matter of fact.  When I hear good playing (Marik, Koji, Etudes, electrafingers, yourself and others), I say so. When I hear bad playing (Pianistimo et al) I say so.

Peace, and merry Xmas. 

[thalbergmad]

But any other reaction than the one I've given would be dishonest on my part.

Precisely.

Are we expected to post only positive comments when we know it is someones friend?

Thal

[etudes]

 I wish I could play octaves as fast and clear as she did..
good playing nonetheless ...
her repertoire is also very impressive 

[thalberg]

Precisely.

Are we expected to post only positive comments when we know it is someones friend?

Thal

You can make negative comments, but words like "pointless" and "insipid" are just not appropriate because they claim that her playing has no artistic content at all.  You reduce her to ground zero with comments like that.

  ("Insipid" means empty and without distinctive characteristics.)

[viking]

Hey isn't she one of John Perry's students?  If so she must be good...

[thalberg]

Yes she is a Perry student.   And he loves her playing.  So does Leon Fleisher. 

[thalbergmad]

You can make negative comments, but words like "pointless" and "insipid" are just not appropriate because they claim that her playing has no artistic content at all. 

All playing has artistic content, but some more than others.

[jakev2.0]

You can make negative comments, but words like "pointless" and "insipid" are just not appropriate because they claim that her playing has no artistic content at all.  You reduce her to ground zero with comments like that.

  ("Insipid" means empty and without distinctive characteristics.)

I'm just saying that my reaction to her Erlkonig was more positive than my reaction to her Bach. If I decide to learn the Berg Sonata one day, i'll likely have unconsciously synthesized some elements from your interpretation of it. Likewise Marik's E flat minor Moment Musicaux. Your friend's Erlkonig is indeed very good, and is an accomplishment most would be proud of.   Those are what I consider to be good interpretations - ones that make very very strong cases for the musical qualities inherent in a piece of music.  Mere technical competence isn't sufficient for praise in my eyes (watch Lisitsa or Lang Lang playing Islamey on youtube for a demonstration).

I don't bandy about praise lightly.

What I said offended. I didn't intend to hurt your feelings personally. If she's reading this, I hope I didn't hurt her feelings.  The worst thing that can happen is that she'll have her feelings hurt by a couple of idiots on the internet who she will never meet in real life. The best thing that can happen is that she'll take some of the criticisms in stride and improve.  If someone like Arrau would admit that it took him about half a dozen live peformances of the Liszt Sonata for it to be acceptable to him, I think any of us could be as down to earth about our own playing.

If you like her Bach, then that's great. I'm by no means an objective measuring stick for the validity of an interpretation.  Move on.

[thalberg]

Okay I will move on.

[thalbergmad]

Oficially moves

[richard black]

I'm by no means an objective measuring stick for the validity of an interpretation.  Move on.

Ha ha, well put my friend, all musicians should repeat that little mantra daily!