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Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor (Read 6198 times)

Offline m

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Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
« on: December 22, 2007, 07:53:12 PM »
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piano sheet music of Moment Musical


Offline berrt

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Re: Rachmaninov, Musical Moment Eflat minor
«Reply #1 on: December 22, 2007, 08:40:17 PM »
Thank you for this wonderful recording!

The recording has some strange fluctuations of the position of the piano.. did you move around with it?  ;D

B.

Offline rachfan

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Re: Rachmaninov, Musical Moment Eflat minor
«Reply #2 on: December 23, 2007, 12:24:28 AM »
Hi marik,

I always enjoy your posted recordings, and this one is no exception.  In this set of Moments Musicaux Op. 16, I play only the Bm and D flat so far, finding the E flat minor Moment somewhat forbidding.  My hat is off to you for turning in such a brilliant, virtuosic performance of this very hauntingly beautiful piece.  Excellent playing!
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline jakev2.0

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Re: Rachmaninov, Musical Moment Eflat minor
«Reply #3 on: December 23, 2007, 06:57:20 PM »
Yikes, the audition room here is going through something of a renaissance this month.

Brilliant fingers, inspired interpretation. The rubato is very daring, but it somehow all works out. Very spooky! Overall, you make the piece sound more like early-middle Scriabin than Rachmaninoff, which I find fascinating. That repeated F# that you bring out at the end is a stroke of Horowitzian cleverness (though I'm sure you play this particular piece even better than Horowitz could have). Well done!


Offline imbetter

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Re: Rachmaninov, Musical Moment Eflat minor
«Reply #4 on: December 23, 2007, 09:57:16 PM »
that was a great performance there's nothing I can really had hasn't already been said.

What was your program by the way?

Are you still touring?
"My advice to young musicians: Quit music! There is no choice. It has to be a calling, and even if it is and you think there's a choice, there is no choice"-Vladimir Feltsman

Offline thierry13

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Re: Rachmaninov, Musical Moment Eflat minor
«Reply #5 on: December 23, 2007, 10:33:54 PM »
(though I'm sure you play this particular piece even better than Horowitz could have)

I agree that Marik's recording is of an amazing genius, but I still think this is an audacious statement :P I'm interested in the rest of the program too ... will you post it Marik ?

Offline m

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Re: Rachmaninov, Musical Moment Eflat minor
«Reply #6 on: December 24, 2007, 06:34:47 AM »
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Offline jakev2.0

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #7 on: December 24, 2007, 07:19:58 AM »
Hey marik. Would you consider posting the Wanderer?

Peace

Offline mephisto

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #8 on: December 24, 2007, 09:53:58 AM »
This is amazing marik!

A real sensitivity in your playing :)

Offline imbetter

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #9 on: December 24, 2007, 12:59:55 PM »
Thats quite a heavy concert program! You must have been quite drained by the time you got to the encore
"My advice to young musicians: Quit music! There is no choice. It has to be a calling, and even if it is and you think there's a choice, there is no choice"-Vladimir Feltsman

Offline paulpiano

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 04:26:54 PM »
This is an outstanding performance!
Thank you Maestro!

Offline Mayla

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #11 on: January 29, 2008, 04:19:04 AM »
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"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #12 on: February 01, 2008, 02:29:38 AM »
You can hear this is a live recording, since there are small note errors throughout (and the clapping at the end :)  ).  Nice presentation overall.  I didn't quite like the rise and falls of the LH figures in the introduction (which started too loud imo), it gets tiresome for me when I hear it pretty much throughout the entire piece. Tempo was slightly slow for my taste too. This is a tough piece to play at masters level anyway, you played it better than the average.
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Offline m

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 04:42:29 PM »
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Offline PaulNaud

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 09:35:16 PM »
Quote
You can hear this is a live recording, since there are small note errors throughout
Which notes are you talking about?
Quote
I didn't quite like the rise and falls of the LH figures in the introduction (which started too loud imo), it gets tiresome for me when I hear it pretty much throughout the entire piece.
Marik's performance is a very romantic one and probably unbeatable, because he plays it in the exact spirit of Rachmanivov.
The endind is deeply moving.
Music soothes the savage breast.
Paul Naud

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 02:54:32 AM »
I mean this playing is really fantastic, don't get me wrong. How many times have I heard this and cannot listen more than 20 seconds because the playing is so bad. This certainly isn't an amatuer rendition. But Marik does not need praise for his playing, I am certain he gets enough of this already.

There are a few little errors throughout which really do not have to be picked on because these are natural things that can happen when playing anything. One example includes: As the RH figure slowly decends at around time 0:37, the 4th group (0:41) the LH plays a wrong bass note I believe. There are little notes in other rapid phrases but it is useless to point all of these out because they are probably one off errors.  We can also critique the legato ties of the melody. But this isn't a competition or exam, if I hear this in a live concert played like this I would be entertained for sure.

Also highlighting the climax of this piece is very important. I find that if we start the piece too loud then this really shaves some of the climactic passages. There is almost like a breathing quality required, similar (but faster rate of increase) to say Scriabin's Op 42 no 5 Etude.

So I got tired when I heard these rise and falls in the LH where the score does not ask for it. I am not necessarily saying we need to be a slave to the sheet music, but it is a matter of control I believe. It is harder to do this LH balanced without the natural tendancy to rise and fall, but it is not necessarily an improvement imo. For example when I teach Waldesrauchen Etude from Liszt, the opening we naturally can tend to insert these rise and falls in sound in the melody, but must act against it.

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Offline jakev2.0

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #16 on: February 25, 2008, 10:17:34 PM »
“We no longer want ‘true servants’ of art; what we need are masters.”

- Moritz Rosenthal

Marik is one of these masters. A pianist can only serve one God.  Most, like Lostinidlewonder, choose to serve Pedantry. 

It`s clear Marik has chosen to serve Artistry. 

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 05:09:01 PM »
Marik is one of these masters. A pianist can only serve one God.  Most, like Lostinidlewonder, choose to serve Pedantry. 
This seems overly simplistic in explanation. If you read carefully you will notice I did say that I would have enjoyed listening to this if I was sitting at the concert. My critique is based on a matter of control, expressing music can be over done (such as starting too loud so your increase in volume becomes less effective), just listen to those overdoing rubato in Chopin for example. It is more tasteful IN MY OPINION to display control rather than your own ideas. In my own playing I could overdo expression all over the place, I could play music any way I wished, but I choose control over my own made up ideas of how the music should sound like. My critique to marik would hardly be nice against an amature, marik doesn't need praise since he gets enough of this. If you disagree with someones critique you state why usually otherwise you do not comment on peoples critique at all.
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Offline michel dvorsky

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 05:23:41 PM »
Quote
It is more tasteful IN MY OPINION to display control rather than your own ideas.

How sad for you!

Quote
In my own playing I could overdo expression all over the place, I could play music any way I wished, but I choose control over my own made up ideas of how the music should sound like.

Yeah right. You choose out of loyalty to the composer to temper your passionate urges and play in a tasteful manner.   ::) This kind of pretend intellectualism is really dull.

Calling a stirringly executed performance "distasteful" is the common refrain of the jealous and the uncreative.
"Sokolov did a SH***Y job of playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto." - Perfect_Pitch

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #19 on: March 03, 2008, 02:00:16 AM »
Calling a stirringly executed performance "distasteful" is the common refrain of the jealous and the uncreative.
Perhaps for yourself. And again this is critique against me with no evidence, simply opinion. This Audition section is an open forum for musicians to discuss their ideas with one another and thus help one another understand musical stances of others. If you want to simplify this all down to jealousy be my guest, but you are missing MY point. You don't know me so don't guess what goes through my head. I didn't say at all the entire performance was distasteful so read properly next time, not selectively.

My comments will mean nothing to anyone else except marik and those who actually play this piece. I doubt those who critique what I say actually play this piece themselves from start to finish (except on a CD player etc) and simply are stating what they think not what they know.
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Offline cygnusdei

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 02:56:22 AM »
Pianostreet never fails to deliver these juicy altercations. More, more!

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 03:22:11 AM »
Pianostreet never fails to deliver these juicy altercations. More, more!
It usually happens when some people read little snippets of an entire post and critique a single sentence, it's just ignorance trying to dress itself up as useful critique and pretending so hard to be clever. It deserves to be fought out to the bitter end :)
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Offline michel dvorsky

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 03:44:21 AM »
Oh, I understood your critique of the performance in all its subtlety and nuance.   ::)

You point out how there are some wrong notes and list a bunch of boring subjective quibbles about aesthetics (not liking the dynamics, thinking the tempo is too slow)...

Nonetheless, you seek to attribute to the performer some level of competence when you say the performance is good "overall" (a thoroughly obnoxious and rude comment in NO way commensurate with the performance's true quality). 

In short I am offended by the patronizing tone of your comments, and strongly doubt your competence to produce anything even remotely comparable to the performance of the original poster.

Only under the veil of anonymity...

Have a nice day,

 :)
"Sokolov did a SH***Y job of playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto." - Perfect_Pitch

Offline tds

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #23 on: March 03, 2008, 04:12:49 PM »
what a very musical playing! it sounds all out from that passionate, yet sensitive heart. technique is truly wonderful, no doubt.

though honestly, there is a few little thing that bothers me a bit. i remember byron janis once says about emotion and playing piano/music: "we should feel detached but envolved". i understand that agitation and passion are in this music, but physical and emotional poise on a deeper level should also be strongly felt. here, you sound "envolved and envolved", which is greatly emotional, but a smidgen bit too much to my taste.

also, the hesitation to execute repeated highest note in a phrase, which happens to be in the down beat of a bar, gets abit predictable after awhile. i wonder if thinking of larger melodic lines helps here.

overall, it's an A performance. tds

ps. love the climax!
dignity, love and joy.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 02:15:03 AM »
tds watch out you are going to get crucified for critiquing this recording :)

In short I am offended by the patronizing tone of your comments, and strongly doubt your competence to produce anything even remotely comparable to the performance of the original poster.
Luckily my point in life isn't to gain approval of other people. I am also not here to prove to people my worth, I let the ignorant remain ignorant. It is good to see you disagree with my "tone" of critique yet still you have no debunked anything I said, simply spewing forth opinion without any evidence to support it. Remember there is a difference between Thinking and Knowing.

Some people find critique is someone "putting down" someones playing. Those who have had bad past experiences with critique will think this way, but those who have had continuous helpful critique in their past will realise it is there to encourage us to move closer to "perfection" in our music. Because of this difference in opinion regarding critique, it is useless to judge the intention of someones critique since the discussion will simply tangent into useless unintelligent rubbish.

Secondly most musical critique can only be understood by those who actually understand the musical context of the critique. Those who have not actually spend countless hours studying this piece might not fully appreciate the critique. If you really understand my critique on the volume control then you would understand that this concept exists in multiple pieces of which I gave examples of.


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Offline Petter

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #25 on: March 06, 2008, 04:17:19 PM »
I was thinking it was the internets fault arguments like this arise. With the loss of nuisances in something written on a forum like this and the subjective interpretations, language barriers blah blah blah. Sometimes it almost feels like someone is arguing with themself, or maybe it´s just me.  ???
"A gentleman is someone who knows how to play an accordion, but doesn't." - Al Cohn

Offline sarrasani

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #26 on: March 10, 2008, 10:08:51 PM »
Sincere congratulations. Excellent work, both clear and passionate.
All best,
Sandro

Offline m

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #27 on: April 05, 2008, 08:56:50 AM »
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #28 on: April 12, 2008, 02:59:46 AM »
I think I have already apologized for making you tired and bored for those rises and falls, and expressed my feeling of their absolute neccessaty for this music, whether the score (in your opinion) asks for it or not. Moreover, in this particular case I don't really care what the score asks for, as in my mind the music ITSELF asks for those rises and falls, whether you like it or not.

You don't have to apologize to me, you have already answered that you do not care what the score asks for so we can leave it there.

What you are trying to present as a matter of lack of control, for me is a matter of essential of this music. What you call and believe as "lack of control", in fact for me is something that I have been practicing and cultivating for a long time--if you were playing the piece you'd know how hard it is.
It would be useless to start an argument that I haven't played this piece myself. Certainly I could say that playing with rises and falls masks the deeper expression of this piece. Because you distract people with these rises and falls instead of depicting a more gradual breathing like effect to your music I feel that the overall control of the music is lesser. Its not to say that you are bad, its just that I believe it takes more control to play it as the score asks for than to put in what we think is right.

You don't like it--fine--the fact itself you noticed those "rises and falls" means I did not waste my time.
I didn't say you wasted your time or possessed a deep dislike for the way you played at all. I dislike it if I think of it critically, this is hardly something we do when we listen for enjoyment, but you posted this MP3 to get critique I am sure, not to have people say, ooo thats lovely.


As a side note, I believe the Waldesrauchen Etude in this respect is something completely different.
This is opinion without evidence to support it. I highlighted the fact that you can naturally want to rise and fall in sound in this piece where you must act against it to produce a more controlled sound. Just like you can natrually rise and fall in sound with this Rach.
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Offline dnephi

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #29 on: April 12, 2008, 01:10:31 PM »
You don't have to apologize to me, you have already answered that you do not care what the score asks for so we can leave it there.
It would be useless to start an argument that I haven't played this piece myself. Certainly I could say that playing with rises and falls masks the deeper expression of this piece. Because you distract people with these rises and falls instead of depicting a more gradual breathing like effect to your music I feel that the overall control of the music is lesser. Its not to say that you are bad, its just that I believe it takes more control to play it as the score asks for than to put in what we think is right.
I didn't say you wasted your time or possessed a deep dislike for the way you played at all. I dislike it if I think of it critically, this is hardly something we do when we listen for enjoyment, but you posted this MP3 to get critique I am sure, not to have people say, ooo thats lovely.

This is opinion without evidence to support it. I highlighted the fact that you can naturally want to rise and fall in sound in this piece where you must act against it to produce a more controlled sound. Just like you can natrually rise and fall in sound with this Rach.

Have you heard Horowitz's recordings of this?  You will find that he felt the same way.  If he had an uncontrolled sound, the volumes of his notes would be defined by the differences in strength of his fingers or lack of wrist and arm technique.  The fact that he is shaping it demonstrates that his sound was not uncontrolled.
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Offline rachfan

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #30 on: April 12, 2008, 07:37:42 PM »
Rise and fall in dynamics need not always be explicitly indicated in the score by "swell" marks by a composer.  Rather, the need for it is sometimes fairly apparent and astutely inferred by the pianist.  The musical concept is often called "contour dynamics", and incorporating it into an interpretation is not only legitimate, given the figuration, phrasing and mood of a particular piece, but enhances performance as well.  Introducing contour dynamics into a work is more the exception than the rule to be sure; nonetheless, the pianist has certain latitude to decide whether or not its use is defensible, and how it can be used to best effect to realize the composer's intent.  I don't view the judicious use of contour dynamics as either taking a liberty or or otherwise playing in an idiosyncratic manner.  Nor do I take any issue with its use in this particular Moment Musical.
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline dnephi

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #31 on: April 12, 2008, 07:51:18 PM »
Would you ever use pedal in Debussy?  I think you are aware of the dearth of such markings in his scores.

Daniel
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline rachfan

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #32 on: April 12, 2008, 09:16:15 PM »
Hi Daniel,

Yes, of course I use pedal in many different ways in Debussy--half pedals, flutter pedal, sostenuto pedal for organ pedal points (not available on Debussy's Bechstein piano in his day), etc.  There again, it points out the implicit choices available to the pianist in the absence of specific notation, and marik's reasoned decision to apply contour dynamics in the Moment above.  Just my opinion.

David
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline dnephi

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #33 on: April 13, 2008, 02:33:26 AM »
Hi Daniel,

Yes, of course I use pedal in many different ways in Debussy--half pedals, flutter pedal, sostenuto pedal for organ pedal points (not available on Debussy's Bechstein piano in his day), etc. There again, it points out the implicit choices available to the pianist in the absence of specific notation, and marik's reasoned decision to apply contour dynamics in the Moment above. Just my opinion.

David
Sorry if I didn't specify, but I was trying make a point to LostInWonder to emphasize that I agreed with you and Marik.

Thanks for the feedback, nonetheless.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline rachfan

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #34 on: April 13, 2008, 03:47:57 AM »
My pleasure  :)
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline kwesifriends

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #35 on: April 15, 2008, 01:40:36 PM »
Wow very good I love the recording and the way you handle the song.

Offline thierry13

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #36 on: April 15, 2008, 03:28:04 PM »
Wow very good I love the recording and the way you handle the song.

A song? Where?

Offline dnephi

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #37 on: April 15, 2008, 06:04:51 PM »
A song? Where?
Can't you clearly see the melody and accompaniment differentiated?
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline thierry13

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #38 on: April 16, 2008, 03:15:20 AM »
Can't you clearly see the melody and accompaniment differentiated?

Hooo I'm so sorry I didn't pay attention to that little detail  ;D Will try to watch this before speaking next time ...  :-[                             ;D

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #39 on: April 20, 2008, 04:27:44 PM »
Dear Marik,

Any chance of posting a rec of the Weber/Tausig. There are a distinct lack of recordings of this masterpiece.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #40 on: April 24, 2008, 11:30:02 AM »
Dear Marik,

Any chance of posting a rec of the Weber/Tausig. There are a distinct lack of recordings of this masterpiece.

Thal

Seconded. I, for one, would be very interested in hearing it.

Offline m

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Re: Rachmaninov, Moment Musicaux E-flat minor
«Reply #41 on: April 29, 2008, 12:38:21 AM »
.