Body Movement

[chsmike2345]

What are your thoughts on body movement, specifically too much of it emotionally, or how much is too much, or is there even a such thing as too much?

[dj]

i think if there is too much concentration on body movement, it could take away from the amount of concentration you are able to give to your playing. also, if you r not careful, your hands may end up moving with your body and consequently missing all the notes. finally, body movement can become a distraction to the audience and detract from the value of the music...

.....however, if you r no good as a pianist, you may want 2 get people's attention from your playing  

[goalevan]

I think it takes away from the performance when a pianist waves their hands around in the air when it's really not needed. Pretty much any movement that's blatantly not needed is just annoying

[Shagdac]

I think it becomes "too much" when one goes from giving an "emotional performance" to being an emotional performer. By that I mean, at times I've heard a performance of a piece so beautiful, it has brought me to tears...and I've had the thought "Wow, that pianist really played that piece beautifully...but it was the MUSIC that touched me"....other times I've seen a performer play so emotionally, that they appeared sadder and more distraught than the actual music sounded.  It has taken away from the music. I do think it's only natural for some emotion to show...how can it not, when you are truly into what you are playing, but by the same token, as a performer, a pianist is the merely the object used to display the real "Star"...the music...and when focus is taken away from the music and listeners are going more by what they are observing in the actions of the pianist than what they are hearing, then its too much. One should be moved  by the sound, not the view.

Shag

[greyrune]

I agree with Shagdac, there is a limit to body movement.  I think if the movement is purely subconcious then there is no problem.  When a performer begins to think about their movement that is when they're crossing the boundry into the pretentious.  I heard a story once of a concert pianist, apparently very good, who would play with lots of expression and movement, maybe too much, i can't say i never saw her.  Anyway once she happened to leave her music on the piano and someone took it after a show.  When they looked at it they found that it had "Head up, Head down ..." written all over it.  This, i think, is horrible and pretentious beyond belief.  While a pianist may not be a riveting spectacle on stage a little movement won't help much and its the sound that is being enjoyed not the sight, as Shagdac said.

[faulty_damper]

What are your thoughts on body movement, specifically too much of it emotionally, or how much is too much, or is there even a such thing as too much?

As long as the movement is for your pleasure only.  I like to move a lot.  There is this thing about sitting at a bench for hours and only minimally moving the body that is just so... stiff.

I do everything imaginable, except screaming.  I cross my legs (a la Gould), I stomp them to the beat, I tremor my legs to no beat just for the sake of moving them.  You get it.  As long as it's for your pleasure alone.

[dj]

As long as the movement is for your pleasure only.  I like to move a lot.  There is this thing about sitting at a bench for hours and only minimally moving the body that is just so... stiff.

I do everything imaginable, except screaming.  I cross my legs (a la Gould), I stomp them to the beat, I tremor my legs to no beat just for the sake of moving them.  You get it.  As long as it's for your pleasure alone.

well as long as you can be sure your movements do not detract or draw attention away from the  music itself, your movements are ok.

as for sitting still at a bench for hours......how long do you think recitals last?  

[lani]

What an interesting question.  My daughter is a dancer (and martial artist also) and moves very gently when playing her more "moving" pieces-especially Chopin.  I guess maybe because she's young and is more expressive.  Her teacher does not think it's too much movement, and in fact he notes how graceful she is when she does play.  I don't think he wants to discourage any child from enjoying the piece they are playing (as long as as as some of you have noted, it is not distracting or contrived). In attending concerts, I think it's more interesting if the pianist has some sublte movements.  IMO, it adds to the pleasure of watching a great musician enjoy his/her music! Cheers, Lani

[xvimbi]

Compared to string quartets or other soloists, pianists move very little. Yet, people completely accept violinists making grimasses that would scare the kids away, cellists that constantly swing back and forth, and everyone is breathing like they're going to die any moment, etc. It is almost expected. If you are distracted by body movements, just look away or close your eyes and take in only the music. What I find much more distracting are noises (coughing, cell phones, etc.), because they really affect the music, movements are primarily visual and don't have any impact.

[bernhard]

What an interesting question.  My daughter is a dancer (and martial artist also) and moves very gently when playing her more "moving" pieces-especially Chopin.  I guess maybe because she's young and is more expressive.  Her teacher does not think it's too much movement, and in fact he notes how graceful she is when she does play.  I don't think he wants to discourage any child from enjoying the piece they are playing (as long as as as some of you have noted, it is not distracting or contrived). In attending concerts, I think it's more interesting if the pianist has some sublte movements.  IMO, it adds to the pleasure of watching a great musician enjoy his/her music! Cheers, Lani

I find that your comment about your daughter being a dancer and a martial artist goes straight to the point.

I see little difference between these very physical activities and piano playing. In fact I believe piano playing to be much closer to the martial arts than to dance.

Dance uses the body and movement to express certain emotions. So, it is natural that certain movements will be exagerated, and most movements will be artificial (who naturally walks on their toes?). Yet it is the job of the dancer to make us forget that such movements are not natural through their (exhaustive) practice of them.

The martial arts are quite different. The ultimate purpose is not to use the body to express emotions, but rather use the body in the most efficient and powerful way. As it is often the case when you concentrate on efficience and power, the result is often supremely elegant and dance like. However while dancers (and olympic gymnasts) have a very short life and have to abandon the profession quite ealry (and usually with life long injuries), Martial artists very often live well past their eighties fully active and often beating up much younger opponents. This comes from constantly striving for efficient and economic movements.

Likewise, pianists should - like martial artists - strive for efficiency in movement. Unlike dancers they should not try to use their bodies for expressive purposes: the music should take care of this. Pianists who do so  - just like martial artists - often live well beyond their eighties in full activity. The two best examples are of course Horowitz and Rubinstein.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lani]

Likewise, pianists should - like martial artists - strive for efficiency in movement. Unlike dancers they should not try to use their bodies for expressive purposes: the music should take care of this. Pianists who do so  - just like martial artists - often live well beyond their eighties in full activity.


Bravo, Bernhard!  My daughter's 'grandmaster' in taekwondo is 90 and looks and moves like he's 40!  My daughter got quite a "kick" out of your reply.
Lani

[donjuan]

I believe body movements are useful only and ONLY when it somehow enhances the music.  Liszt has been known to finish off virtuosic performances with the arms flailing out on the last thunderous chord.  This IS appropriate because it truly creates a spectacle for the audience and enhances the music.  

However, it is easy for body movements to turn into "mannerisms"- movements not at all related to the music, but something the performer does in bad taste- or with lack of control.  You would never want to flail your arms out wildly during the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, now would you?  It simply ruins the music AND the performers reputation.
donjuan

[bernhard]

I believe body movements are useful only and ONLY when it somehow enhances the music.  Liszt has been known to finish off virtuosic performances with the arms flailing out on the last thunderous chord.  This IS appropriate because it truly creates a spectacle for the audience and enhances the music.  

However, it is easy for body movements to turn into "mannerisms"- movements not at all related to the music, but something the performer does in bad taste- or with lack of control.  You would never want to flail your arms out wildly during the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, now would you?  It simply ruins the music AND the performers reputation.
donjuan

I completely agree with you. Which is why I believe the martial arts are a better model for piano playing than dance. In the martial arts you cannot get away with any mannerisms whatsoever – while in dance you can. In the martial arts all your movements must be to the point, or you end up being beaten up.

Incidentally, this is also why most martial arts movies are hilarious: no one would ever get away with those moves in a real street-fight.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

I somehow fail to see the point why body movements would be bad. First off, I personally don't like too much unnecessary body movements in a performer, but I consider this my problem as a listener, and not generally a flaw (at most a bad habit) in a performer. After all, music is completely aural, and one should be able to enjoy or evaluate a performance without looking at the performer. Blind people do it, and when listening to a CD, one does it too. Along the same lines, it doesn't matter what people are wearing either, or what their political opinions are. Only the music counts, everything else is bound to social conventions and traditions that may or may not be useful, reasonable or accepted (why do pianos have to be black??).

As a performer, do whatever is necessary to produce the sounds that you want. For some people, it means getting off the bench a lot, for others it means waving the left arm in the air, while the right hand is producing a particularly graceful sound, etc. I have seen pianists cry during play and Scriabin was known to have, how should I say, his own version of a climax every now and then. Now that my be a bit too extravagant a body movement  

I feel it has more to do with established conventions than with the music. One example: in Europe, it is absolutely accepted and an honest sign of appreciation to clap between the movments of a concerto, whereas in the US, it is considered a bad habit. Rock-N-Roll or gospel would not be what they are without excessive, "useless" body movements. Why should classical music be different?

[donjuan]

Yesterday, I performed in a Music Festival.  One performer rocked back and forth on the bench SO much, I thought he was going to fall off.  It was so distracting, I couldn't pay attention to the music.  He was playing Chopin- Fantasy Impromptu.  After he finished, he began his second piece- Mozart- Rondo Alla turca- and he was STILL rocking back and forth, back and forth..He performs the same ridiculous way no matter what style of music he played.  I had to pinch my arm really, REALLY hard to cause enough pain to stop laughing.
donjuan

[faulty_damper]

Bernhard, are you aware that dancers are musical idiots?  They don't understand music at all!  I thought ballet would be more like this than modern dancers but no!  Modern dancers are absolute idiots!  But the blame should go more towards the choreographers - they are the true idiots.

For dancers and choreographers, the music means very little to compel them to move.  For them, the movement comes first.  Then the music.  Then the movement attempts to match the music, and often horribly.  Looking at dancers, they are often unexpressive, both bodily and facially, when dancing to the music.

The last modern dance concert I went to, after the first 3 dances, I was disgusted.  I wanted to walk out.  The music was one thing; the "dance" the other.  I actually questioned the purpose of applauding.  Am I supposed to applaud because the dancers practiced hard and are able to perform or and I supposed to applaud because their performance was spectacular?  I was disgusted.

However, Chinese dance is completely the opposite of Western dance.  Expression comes first, movement just follows.  And more importantly, movement matches music!  What an innovative concept.

...
Fun fact:  A ballerina's life span lasts only until their 30s.  After that, they get fired.  All those years of hard work and it lasts only about 10 years.  And all because they aren't youthful and attractive anymore.  Are audiences that shallow or what?  They actually get better as they age, but who wants to see a performance done beautifully if the performer has one wrinkle on her face?  I can tolerate two wrinkles.    Kinda sad, huh?

[bernhard]

Bernhard, are you aware that dancers are musical idiots?  

Yes, I heard this theory - but I do not know personally any dancer, so I cannot verify it. I also heard the converse one: that pianists (and musicians) are terrible dancers  - for all their knowledge of music and rhtyhm - and often have two left feet.

There is the story of Claudio Arrau who took his future wife to dance, and she was secretly dreading the occasion, since her experience with musicians that tried to dance was not something to look forward to.

However, Arrau surprised her by being an excellent dancer. Unknown to her, Arrau - on the advice of his psychoanalyst and as a way to deal with his shyness - had being taking dancing lessons for several months, and had become a Travolta!

May that be a lesson for all of us that think one has to be born with certain talents. A good teacher, correct practice and the sky is the limit.

However, Chinese dance is completely the opposite of Western dance.  Expression comes first, movement just follows.  And more importantly, movement matches music!  What an innovative concept.

Indeed, and the same is true of almost any ehtnical, traditional music (Indian, African,Middle Eastern, etc.)

...

Fun fact:  A ballerina's life span lasts only until their 30s.  After that, they get fired.  All those years of hard work and it lasts only about 10 years.  And all because they aren't youthful and attractive anymore.  Are audiences that shallow or what?  They actually get better as they age, but who wants to see a performance done beautifully if the performer has one wrinkle on her face?  I can tolerate two wrinkles.    Kinda sad, huh?

Also many ballerinas must cut their career short simply because of inuries caused by training/diet (anorexics jumping high and landing on toes, are prime cadidates for stress fractures, the most prevalent injury associated with dancers).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

And by the way (I just thought of that) this is the main reason why pianists should follow martial artists rather than dancers.

In the (properly conducted) martial arts, injuries from training must be avoided at all costs, otherwise you will be in the ridiculous situation of being too injured from the training to defend yourself, to actually defend yourself.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[donjuan]

And by the way (I just thought of that) this is the main reason why pianists should follow martial artists rather than dancers.

In the (properly conducted) martial arts, injuries from training must be avoided at all costs, otherwise you will be in the ridiculous situation of being too injured from the training to defend yourself, to actually defend yourself.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Bernhard, that is a brilliant analogy!  I understand what you are saying- Pianists are so similar to martial artists on so many levels- now I understand the reasons why I practice- ahhhh, I SEE THE LIGHT!!! iT BURNS!!!!

[bernhard]

Bernhard, that is a brilliant analogy!  I understand what you are saying- Pianists are so similar to martial artists on so many levels- now I understand the reasons why I practice- ahhhh, I SEE THE LIGHT!!! iT BURNS!!!!

You may enjoy this book:

Catherine David - "The beauty of Gesture - The invisible keyboard of piano and Tai Chi" (North Atlantic Books)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[faulty_damper]

Yes, I heard this theory - but I do not know personally any dancer, so I cannot verify it. I also heard the converse one: that pianists (and musicians) are terrible dancers  - for all their knowledge of music and rhtyhm - and often have two left feet.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I'm currently taking a class about dance appreciation and half the women in the class are dance majors.  I see them get up and dance all the time and though their movements are ...nice... when I see them perform live with music, I'd rather see them dancing without it.  (They are so much prettier that way.)  With only a handful of other men in the class (maybe less than the digits on one hand) I'm afraid of saying anything about it for fear of, you know...


With pianists, they spend half their lives sitting down.  How much practice do they get with dancing if they spend it sitting down.  I'm sure that if a dance fad comes out where one is supposed to be sitting down, they'd be dance virtuosos!  It's called, the "Bench".  

[lani]

And by the way (I just thought of that) this is the main reason why pianists should follow martial artists rather than dancers.

In the (properly conducted) martial arts, injuries from training must be avoided at all costs, otherwise you will be in the ridiculous situation of being too injured from the training to defend yourself, to actually defend yourself.

In martial arts, one must sustain and experience some injuries in order to achieve a level of expert training-how else do you develop instincts and movements in self defense?  As a martial artist and mom of a second dgree black belt, you cannot totally avoid being injured.  Sparring is a controlled excercise under the best of cricumstances, but it is impossible not to get bruised or slightly injured when training-it comes with the territory. However, forms (katas) are really amazing when performed at expert level, and you don't have any injuries in karate or taekwondo (other than the training involved in holding a side kick for say ten seconds), but you do when training for the acrobatics used in wushu (chinese martial arts).  Now in defense of dancers, I'm sure many dancers would be offended by fautly dampers comment about them being musical  idiots.
[quote Bernhard, are you aware that dancers are musical idiots?  They don't understand music at all!  I thought ballet would be more like this than modern dancers but no!  Modern dancers are absolute idiots!  But the blame should go more towards the choreographers - they are the true idiots.

For dancers and choreographers, the music means very little to compel them to move.  For them, the movement comes first.  Then the music.  Then the movement attempts to match the music, and often horribly.  Looking at dancers, they are often unexpressive, both bodily and facially, when dancing to the music.

It's too bad your experience with modern dance has been so negative.  Choreographers often choose music for their work first, or as part of their theme, and being in synch with the rhythm and expression of the music is something they do strive for. Oh well, the question posed about movement in pianists is really the topic here, so we digress.  So, if we are using martial arts as a metaphor, one must learn focus and discipline your body to use  movements efficiently, as Bernhard stated. Every martial artist performs his/her kata in a unique "style" or grace suitable to their individual bodies, even though the order of the basic blocks, punches, stances, etc. are the same.  I would think this to be the same for pianists.   Anyway, it was really great to read the comments on the similarity to martial arts! Regards, Lani

[faulty_damper]

"Now in defense of dancers, I'm sure many dancers would be offended by fautly dampers comment about them being musical  idiots.  "

I said idiots and I stick by it.  I didn't say they were morons but idiots.

But to clarify, when I said modern dancers/choreographers, I meant modern Western dancers/choreographers.  Dancers and choreographers with an ethnic background don't seem to suffer from idiocy but Western ones do!  Ethnic ones are average when it comes to the music and dance.  But this is probably because the music is still the objective stimulator for both dancers and audience.  Western dance isn't like that.  Think about what Twyla Tharpe did when she performed/choreographed without any music.  She had some "serious reconsideration on my part."  DUH!  What stimulates you to move must also stimulate the audience!  Not "it stimulated me three years ago and now I'm choreographing this without it".  Tharpe was the John Cage of dance.

Dance follows stimulation.  Music is that stimulation.  When music is played, it stimulates everyone objectively including performers.  How we sense it and interpret it is the subjective part.  And some are way off.

[bernhard]

In martial arts, one must sustain and experience some injuries in order to achieve a level of expert training-how else do you develop instincts and movements in self defense?  As a martial artist and mom of a second dgree black belt, you cannot totally avoid being injured.  Sparring is a controlled excercise under the best of cricumstances, but it is impossible not to get bruised or slightly injured when training-it comes with the territory. However, forms (katas) are really amazing when performed at expert level, and you don't have any injuries in karate or taekwondo (other than the training involved in holding a side kick for say ten seconds), but you do when training for the acrobatics used in wushu (chinese martial arts).  

I think you must differentiate between "real" martial arts and "sports" martial arts. (There is no implication here that one is superior to the other - just that their aims are very different).

In sports martial arts you often get injured - and wushu in particular is more akin to dance than to martial arts - both in the training and in the competitions.

This is too long a subject to discuss in a piano forum, but I suggest that you investigate the story of the martial arts (none of the popular martial arts  - judo, karate, aikido, taekwondo, etc. are really "traditional", they are all modern, watered down versions of the "real" ones - and sparring was first introduced in the Japanese martial arts in the 1950s by Gogen Yamaguchi), and have a look at this book, where this subject is discussed in a very articulate way:

Bruce Kumar Frantzis - The power of Internal Martial Arts (North Atlantic Books)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[anda]

there are moves of the hand or of the body that can help you play - it's important that you keep moving all the time, cause stiffness leads to muscular cramps and pains. not to mention that once you stop you need an impulse to get started again, which is time and energy consuming...

apart from the moves that help you play, everything else is pure show, so thanks, but no thanks. i've seen hundreds of pianists playing live and i can tell you all showy pianists should stop taking ballet lessons and try some piano lessons in exchange.

[bernhard]

there are moves of the hand or of the body that can help you play - it's important that you keep moving all the time, cause stiffness leads to muscular cramps and pains. not to mention that once you stop you need an impulse to get started again, which is time and energy consuming...

apart from the moves that help you play, everything else is pure show, so thanks, but no thanks. i've seen hundreds of pianists playing live and i can tell you all showy pianists should stop taking ballet lessons and try some piano lessons in exchange.

I completely agree.

The problems of pianists must not be too sharply differentiated from those of the dancer, the singer, the violinist. Indeed, all bodily skills have this in common: they always involve the whole body if the best results are to be obtained. The body is the center of all these skills... the center controls the periphery.
– Abby Whiteside