How does a stds physionomy affect what u teach?

[green]

Hands, also, are individual. Liszt's hand was very long and proportionately narrow; Rubinstein's was short-fingered and proportionately broad. Yet both hands played marvelous runs, "passage work." It is the task of the teacher to discover what type of playing is suitable for each hand, each personality. The teacher must be the physician, to remedy the weaknesses and prescribe the treatments. No one style is possible for all hands.

Took this quote off the net, not sure who is the author, but it is a question that seems very important when taking your learners 'needs' into account. How do u know 'what type of playing is suitable for each hand, each personality'? How do u take your stds physionomy into account when dealing with technique?

For example, i have one std who has a strong 'ulner' curve to both hands. To the extant that asking him to try playing with the hand horizontal feels wrong! I'm not sure if this is in fact 'wrong' or an idiosycracy specific to him. In this case, I am not his first teacher, so perhaps it is a bad 'habit' developed somewhere else, or perhaps it is not a problem? I need to continue to examine how it effects his playing by trying out various passages with both 'his way' and what would seem a more correct 'horizontal' position.

How do others take physionomy into account?

[bernhard]

This is a very interesting question.

I have no idea how to answer it in writing though.

All I can say is that I take my students general physicality very much into consideration. And I try to work with their peculiarities rather than try to make them conform to some sort of “ideal”.

Here are some thoughts on this subject, hopefully other people will joint in.

1.      There is no “correct” hand shape/position/configuration etc. For each person it will vary. There are however many incorrect ones. How do I know? I observe the student playing. It is very obvious if their movement/fingering/hand position etc. is appropriate or not. You can see them struggling. The best physical configuration for a student will be the one that gives him/her the most comfort/ease in playing and at the same time produces the intended sound. This means that the best configuration for one student may be quite different from the best configuration for a different student.

2.      How do I approach a student having difficulties? I try to mimic what he is doing. If I am successful in modelling his behaviour, it will be a piece of cake to correct it (if it needs correction). All I have to do is to play how he does, and then play the way I think he should do, and show him the difference. The problem is that he may not be able to do as I do (we are different), so I just keep trying different physical configuration until we strike a satisfactory solution.

3.      No matter what the physical configuration of a student is, there are certain things that will fit everyone. For instance, the second and third finger should always be aligned with the forearm bones. The first joint should not “break”. Movement should go from the top of the arm to the fingers and not the other way around. This sort of thing.

4.      Real difficulties:

i.      Very small hands (I mean very small – I have a teenager student who can barely stretch to a seventh – and it does not look like her fingers are going to grow any further).

ii.      Very short thumbs (best for piano playing is long thumbs – thumbs that reach beyond the second joint of the index finger – but this is rare).

iii.      Stubby fingers. I have two adult students that have such fat fingers, that they cannot play in between the black keys: their fingers get stuck. I told them to go on a diet, but I am not sure if it will help…

iv.      Arthritis. One of my students has arthritis. She has had to rework all her technique so that she can play at all. Interestingly enough she can play! Which just shows that fingers are far less important than we give them credit for!

I would be very interested in hearing other people’s experiences in this area.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jeff]

Also, another interesting discussion could be how you treat female and male students differently? which could extend beyond physical differences, to how they function differently on a mental/psychological level

[green]

Movement should go from the top of the arm to the fingers and not the other way around. This sort of thing.

Could u explain this for me?

I remember a teacher who said that everything follows the fingers. That all motion is 'initiated' from a impulse from the finger(s) that is then coordinated with the rest of the arm. Wrist follows fingers, elbow follows wrist, arm follows elbow. The concept of where the motion starts is not really clear to me.

[green]

This also could be posed as a question concerning how to 'read' a stds physical nature, and to adapt 'principles' of playing piano to suit that nature. Always adapting to a point where the std 'takes over' the 'searching' for the technique that best suits them.

For example, every pianist at some point, sheds (or abandons) the 'training wheels' of a teacher to become self sufficient. Is the 'viscious circle' of a minor 'pain' that becomes a major injury, not also the same circle that, with a healthy functioning system (specific to every individual), builds and supports a beautiful technique (and mind and ear)?

To use a corny metaphor, I would liken the process of helping a std to 'discover' their own way of playing piano, to that of trying start a fire. It will burn by itself once it starts. In that sense, it is a more a matter of knowing the 'material' u r trying to ignite than attempting to make sure that the wrist is parallel to the forearm (and getting upset if it isn't). It is a matter of really understanding physionomy in general, and how that effects the development of technique.

So how do we know the std we r dealing with? How do we know how to identify a technical problem due to phsique? How do we know when a shoulder is weak and not properly supporting the arm (in which case should we not send them to a orthopedist? etc etc).

There seems to be enough examples of great pianists who do not abide by anything we would call 'normal' technique. And yet we do not hesitate to say what a great technique they have DESPITE of there physical nature, and not BECAUSE of it. What led them to play like that? Wouldn't Gould have played better if he just sat up, SHUT UP, and got a little more exercise? (Kidding, but he said that he wouldn't even be able to play the piano if he didn't). Didn't he leave Guerrero, I recall reading somewhere, because of such an issue?

Asking questions, questions intended to raise a stds awareness of 'feelings' concerning WHAT they 'should' feel, technically, over something they r told to do but 'feels' wrong, may be useful to start. How does that feel? Does your shoulder hurt? Not at all? Can u feel the roation of the shoulder girdle? (The what?) What do u notice that is different about playing this passage with fingers curved or more flat? Is the forearm hot? Warm? Etc.

[bernhard]

Also, another interesting discussion could be how you treat female and male students differently? which could extend beyond physical differences, to how they function differently on a mental/psychological level

Yes, this would be a very interesting topic. I certainly treat male & female students differently, but then I also treat differently children/teenagers and adults. Come to think of it I treat everyone differently!

Ultimately you treat people differently because they behave and respond differently.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Could u explain this for me?

I remember a teacher who said that everything follows the fingers. That all motion is 'initiated' from a impulse from the finger(s) that is then coordinated with the rest of the arm. Wrist follows fingers, elbow follows wrist, arm follows elbow. The concept of where the motion starts is not really clear to me.

I completely disagree with the aforementioned teacher.

Efficient, elegant movement always start at the centre and moves outwards. Think of a dancer, or of a boxer. The punch of a boxer comes from the hips, the fist is the least important part of the punch.

You may also consider walking: the power comes from the hips and thighs, not from the toes. The truth of this statement is obvious when you see people who lost their toes being able to walk. In fact even people who lost their legs above the knee can still walk with prosthetics.

Anyone involved with certain physical disciplines (dance, martial arts, Olympic gymnastic) must develop the ability to move from the centre of their bodies if they want to get any good at these disciplines.

It is exactly the same with piano playing (which is ultimately a physical discipline). Players who move from the fingers will never play well, and their deficiencies in this area will prevent them for ever playing the advanced repertory.

You may get away with “finger” playing when dealing with certain simple pieces and things like scales. But you will not play them well or fluently. Other things like octaves and double thirds you will simply not be able to play at all unless the movement comes from the arm.

I have talked about this in other threads (you will have to look, I cannot remember where), and both Robert Henry and Hmoll (just to mention two – there are others) have often talked about this articulately and cogently. I suggest you have a look in their contributions which are consistently excellent. And more recently Herve and Faulty Damper have also added much interesting and thought provoking material to this subject.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

This also could be posed as a question concerning how to 'read' a stds physical nature, and to adapt 'principles' of playing piano to suit that nature. Always adapting to a point where the std 'takes over' the 'searching' for the technique that best suits them.

For example, every pianist at some point, sheds (or abandons) the 'training wheels' of a teacher to become self sufficient. Is the 'viscious circle' of a minor 'pain' that becomes a major injury, not also the same circle that, with a healthy functioning system (specific to every individual), builds and supports a beautiful technique (and mind and ear)?

To use a corny metaphor, I would liken the process of helping a std to 'discover' their own way of playing piano, to that of trying start a fire. It will burn by itself once it starts. In that sense, it is a more a matter of knowing the 'material' u r trying to ignite than attempting to make sure that the wrist is parallel to the forearm (and getting upset if it isn't). It is a matter of really understanding physionomy in general, and how that effects the development of technique.

I completely agree. This idea of a vicious circle that leads to superb technique rather than to bad habits and injury is a very deep idea. Everything comes from this.

So how do we know the std we r dealing with? How do we know how to identify a technical problem due to phsique? How do we know when a shoulder is weak and not properly supporting the arm (in which case should we not send them to a orthopedist? etc etc).

I am not sure if there is a general answer to this question (if there is I certainly would like to read about it). I believe that at the end of the day it will ultimately be down to observation and experience. But the only way to get experience is to be prepared to try different things. The more approaches you try, the more experience with what works and what does not you will have. Therefore my own principle is to know what I want and keep changing what I am doing until I get what I want. Every failure increase my experience.

There seems to be enough examples of great pianists who do not abide by anything we would call 'normal' technique. And yet we do not hesitate to say what a great technique they have DESPITE of there physical nature, and not BECAUSE of it. What led them to play like that? Wouldn't Gould have played better if he just sat up, SHUT UP, and got a little more exercise? (Kidding, but he said that he wouldn't even be able to play the piano if he didn't). Didn't he leave Guerrero, I recall reading somewhere, because of such an issue?

Yes, and there also seems to be enough examples of pianists with idiosyncratic techniques that suffered all sorts of injuries (Byron Janis, Leon Fleitscher, John Ogdon – and both Alfred Brendel and Glenn Gould had back problems – to mention just a few). From all I read about Gould it seems to me he just enjoyed proving people wrong, even if it cost him a lot. Probably Guerrero told him he would never be able to play well from such a low position, and he went on to saw the legs of his chair so that he would play almost sitting on the floor and prove Guerrero wrong.

What led them to play like that? Sometimes fixed ideas about technique (remember that many of these pianists were educated before certain ideas about piano playing became commonplace), misguided traditions, total lack of awareness of their own bodies (because all they were paying attention too was the sound they were producing) and so on and so forth. On the other hand you have pianists with an idiosyncratic technique, and they arrived at it after careful experimentation and study. Perhaps the most interesting is Vladimir de Pachman. Have a look here for some really interesting stuff:

https://users.bigpond.net.au/nettheim/pachmann/pachindx.htm

Asking questions, questions intended to raise a stds awareness of 'feelings' concerning WHAT they 'should' feel, technically, over something they r told to do but 'feels' wrong, may be useful to start. How does that feel? Does your shoulder hurt? Not at all? Can u feel the roation of the shoulder girdle? (The what?) What do u notice that is different about playing this passage with fingers curved or more flat? Is the forearm hot? Warm? Etc.

Yes, this is a good idea. But it will only work if the teacher knows what they are supposed to be feeling. This is an interesting path, but full of traps. So making students aware of feelings, yes no doubt. Telling them what they should feel… I am not so sure about that.  Partly because my own technique has changed dramatically over the years (for the best), so I cannot really say with total certainty that what I am doing now is the best – although I can say with great assurance that it is better than the stuff I used to do in my young years. My own approach is to try to instill on the students the same enthusiasm for experimentation I myself have.

When faced with controversial issues, my approach is always the same: select two pieces of similar difficulty and with similar technical demands. Learn one of them one way. Learn the other the other way. Compare results: Which one was learned quicker? Which one is played better? Which one “feels” right. It is very rare that there will be any doubt as to the superior methodology once you finish the experiment. In fact the common experience is that after a few days it is so obvious which is the correct approach that the other approach will be dropped without even bothering to carry the experiment to the end.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I have just read a most interesting post by Herve, that is totally relevant to your question. (Actually all his posts deal with this subject of moving not with the fingers, but with the body).

Please, have a look here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1071231153;start=100

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[green]

Telling them what they should feel… I am not so sure about that.

Yes, right, that sounds as though there were an absolute, of course there is not. So to qualify, it would be more raising awareness of the 'range' of a motion and the difference between them. Then allowing the std to explore and 'feel' these ranges and differences for themselves. Noticing differences in motion must also mean noticing corresponding differences in sound.  

Efficient, elegant movement always start at the centre and moves outwards. Think of a dancer, or of a boxer. The punch of a boxer comes from the hips, the fist is the least important part of the punch.

How do we know, and teach, how to move 'from the center otwards'? (From a teacher of course!) But just for discussions sake, this is a beautiful way to think about where motion originates. Where is the center? (Heart, soul, spirit, hips, gal bladder...?) I recall a quote from Richter when asked about something he played with an 'amazing' forte (something like that), and he replied "Oh, I played that from my big toe".

When would I know that I am moving from the center outwards? This would seem to strongly relate to 'balance'. When we are balanced there is equilibrim, as in linear perspective, and therefore a strong sence of where the 'center' is. All movement then must be coordinated in a way that maintains 'centeredness'. However, what is the feeling of moving from the center outwards (when playing piano)?

Heres a quote from herve, that yes resonanced with where this may be leading:

The well-regulated action of the piano is remarkably similar.  Just as the balls of the toy rest against each other, the whole “hammer-moving” mechanism of the grand piano rests on the key capstan.  If the player’s finger stikes the top of the key, but stops as soon as the key is struck (let's not get philosophical here!), the player’s kinetic energy is transmitted through the various parts of the action and the hammer will rise and hit the string.  So the key moves downward maybe not at all, but the hammer rises to strike string.

The significance of this fact to the player should be astromomical because he/she no longer has to be concerned about “finger technique”.  The empasis now naturally turns to the more-fertile world ABOVE the keyboard - the land where big motions of powerful weights and levers produce beautiful music to the ear.  Once this is fully appreciated, it completely changes the player’s attitude toward piano music, piano technique, and method of practice.  Contact with the keys occurs AFTER something, not as the BEGINNING of something.

Because quite a hard key-strike is necessary to move hammers while barely moving keys, it is necessary for the player to use his entire body as a whip with properly-spaced “solidified” fingers making the required forceful impact at the “crack”.

The dynamic range of sound using this technique (attitude) is very wide - from barely audible to very loud.  The amount of energy required to play softly is a fraction of that required to play loud, so this technique is most suitable for playing large groups of notes softly and very rapidly.

Thankyou Herve, just read this and glad I did. Alot of ideas here and a good metaphor. (Snatched it from the link Bernhard provided above). I haven't read Whiteside, is her approach very different?

[bernhard]

How do we know, and teach, how to move 'from the center otwards'? (From a teacher of course!) But just for discussions sake, this is a beautiful way to think about where motion originates. Where is the center? (Heart, soul, spirit, hips, gal bladder...?) I recall a quote from Richter when asked about something he played with an 'amazing' forte (something like that), and he replied "Oh, I played that from my big toe".

The centre of the human body is four fingers below the navel. This point is right in the middle of the body from the point of view of up – down, right – left and front - back (the actual point is not at your skin, but inside the body).

In the West we pay no attention to it. In the far East this point is of the utmost importance. So much so that they have a special name for it: Hara (Japanese) and Tantien (Chinese).

Ideally one should move from the Hara/tantiem. You can see that very clearly in many of the traditional Japanese crafts and arts.  Martial artists will move and strike from that point: a punch or a kick will always be powered by the hip, the fist or foot being only the point of contact and no more. The host in a tea ceremony will do all the complex movements required to prepare and serve tea from this point. A Chinese Taichi master will likewise do all the complex movements of the taichi form moving from this central point of the body. And Richter was right in a sense, he was getting his centre powered by pressing against the toe.

When would I know that I am moving from the center outwards? This would seem to strongly relate to 'balance'. When we are balanced there is equilibrim, as in linear perspective, and therefore a strong sence of where the 'center' is. All movement then must be coordinated in a way that maintains 'centeredness'. However, what is the feeling of moving from the center outwards (when playing piano)?

This is difficult to explain in writing. It needs hands on instruction. Try this. Walk around, and observe where you are walking from. Most people in Western societies walk with their noses. The nose moves and the bodies follow their noses. Some people walk with their chins. You can observe them on the streets, chin forward, heads out of line, falling forward and basically being pulled by their chins. Some people walk from their shoulders. Now, to walk from your hara/tantien, imagine you have a rope going right through a hole in your body, four fingers below your navel. Imagine that this rope has a knot at one end, so that if you pull it, it will propel you forwards. Now you are walking from your hara/tantien. This is the most effective way of walking. Once you get the hang of it, you can start doing all sorts of movements form there.

Watch Japanese samurai movies. Observe the intriguing way samurai run. Only their legs move. Everything else is kept upright. It is quite strange, and yet no one pays too much attention to it. They are running by being “pulled” by their haras. Aikido masters can throw people around with tiny movements of their hands – or so it seems, until you realise that they are not throwing people with their hands, but with their haras.

If you really want to know what this is all about, I strongly suggest you enrol in a taichi/aikido/karate class and ask the instructor to show you how to move from your centre. This will change forever the way you think about piano technique.

I haven't read Whiteside, is her approach very different?

Different from what? From what Herve is saying? No, Herve is right on her school of thought.

Different from people who like to assign Hanon type exercise? You bet.

Yet, she is not in a vacuum. She belongs to a long line of pedagogues that in the beginning of the 20ty century started to challenge commonly held views about piano playing, piano practice and piano teaching. The most famous and well known being Deppe, Breitkopf and Tobias Matthay. Each one of these teachers informed and influenced the others (and Whiteside), and each disagreed with the others. Their main problem was vocabulary. Many times, they were saying the same thing, and actually agreeing, but they were using different terminologies. In any case, a synthesis has been made, and the best book that brings together all these theories is Seymour Fink’s “Mastering piano technique”. If you do not have this book, I strongly suggest you get it and the accompanying video.

Also have look at this thread where there is a discussion about Abby Whiteside:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=misc;action=display;num=1075973976

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[green]

Once this is fully appreciated, it completely changes the player’s attitude toward piano music, piano technique, and method of practice.  Contact with the keys occurs AFTER something, not as the BEGINNING of something.

I think I know what u r talking about, and I will be looking into the suggested readings including Whiteside...but just for the sake of dicussion, in what way will it change a player's attitude toward piano music, piano technique, and method of practice? It is difficult to fully appreciate something when u do not know what that is, exactly. I know it is difficult to discuss without showing, perhaps point me to specific pages, or a video, or recording, somethings that 'shows'. Also I am of course thinking about how I might show this to a std.

Because quite a hard key-strike is necessary to move hammers while barely moving keys, it is necessary for the player to use his entire body as a whip with properly-spaced “solidified” fingers making the required forceful impact at the “crack”.

Hammers, whips, bodies, hard key-strikes, required forceful impact at the “crack”, “solidified” fingers...gulp! We still talking about playing the 'stringed' piano?

The dynamic range of sound using this technique (attitude) is very wide - from barely audible to very loud.  The amount of energy required to play softly is a fraction of that required to play loud, so this technique is most suitable for playing large groups of notes softly and very rapidly.

Do u mean the same thing by technique and attitude? We still haven't discussed 'how' we use this technique? But the metaphor is brilliant, almost making me hallucinate with possibilities!

[green]

Seymour Fink’s “Mastering piano technique”.

Don't mean to sound pretentious, but what is his thesis (and conclusion)? It will be much time before I could get hold of it...(and I'm very eager...)

Is the video (and book) available in Canada? Don't know anyone in the states...

[green]

Ideally one should move from the Hara/tantiem. You can see that very clearly in many of the traditional Japanese crafts and arts.  Martial artists will move and strike from that point: a punch or a kick will always be powered by the hip, the fist or foot being only the point of contact and no more. The host in a tea ceremony will do all the complex movements required to prepare and serve tea from this point. A Chinese Taichi master will likewise do all the complex movements of the taichi form moving from this central point of the body. And Richter was right in a sense, he was getting his centre powered by pressing against the toe.

I studied Tai Chi while living in Germany, I did chat with my teacher (from a class), but we never discussed this. So I am very intrigued as it is new to me.

My original post, in a way, was asking about how to make a std aware of the way they move, how that effects their sound, and how we might better take these 'techinical' concerns into account.

Efficient, elegant movement always start at the centre and moves outwards.

This sounds like a fine principle, a starting point. Could the rest be simply a matter of 'technique'?

Think of a dancer, or of a boxer. The punch of a boxer comes from the hips, the fist is the least important part of the punch.

What is the 'feeling' of playing from the center? I have been walking everywhere now from Hara (my belly is sticking out more ) But how do I play piano from that center point? I've never fathomed this, but perhaps I already do play this way... :-/

[bernhard]

Seymour Fink’s “Mastering piano technique”.

Don't mean to sound pretentious, but what is his thesis (and conclusion)? It will be much time before I could get hold of it...(and I'm very eager...)

Is the video (and book) available in Canada? Don't know anyone in the states...

Here is the gist of it:

“ What is piano technique?

I define it as purposeful movement for musical ends.

Purposeful coordinated movement triggered by inner hearing form the basis of musical expression. The spirit and quality of this movement is as much a part of the artistic message as accuracy of pitch and rhythm.

Mind and body are trained together. Good training encourages a variety of physical approaches for this increases the emotional range of your playing.

I also emphasize adaptability for we must constantly adjust to different pianos, rooms and associated musicians, let alone music spontaneity.

We seek the coherent development of advantageous coordinations.

The focus is on the player’s body, the way it is positioned, the way it moves, the sensations it feels and the sounds it produces.

The newly learned gestures will become fused with your musical imagination and spur you to more beautiful, more expressive piano playing.
(Seymour Fink – Mastering Piano Technique)


Read here an absolutely brilliant article on piano technique by Seymour Fink:

https://www.pianoatpepper.com/catalog/art_PiTechSympFink99.jsp

Then get the book and the video to figure out the details. You can buy it (and read a review of it) here:

https://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0931340462-2

Best wishes,
Bernhard.