Beethoven Op.27/2

[ayahav]

What do you think of the suitability of the name "moonlight sonata" for Beethoven's Op. 27/2...?

I hate it.

[schnabels_grandson]

Putting any sentimental or "romantic" title on a piece of music is very corny.  

[ayahav]

That's very debatable.... You can't really say that "Pavane pour un infant defunt" is a corny title, for example. There are 'romantic' titles which fit pieces, but because of the third movement, Moonlight is nnot suitable here...

[schnabels_grandson]

Perhaps I should have said that it is my opinion, in which case it is not debatable.

Some titles are apropriate, but the vast majority are stupid inventions designed to snare people into buying the music.  Mendelssohn's songs without words are a classic example.  Of course, this is just my meek opinion.

[Motrax]

I believe the name to be very appropriate, although if you asked last week I wouldn't have said so. I was playing the third movement a few days ago, and I just came to understand that name.

Now, the way I interperet the third movement is very melodramatically - it shifts between grand chords and runs of arpeggios to simple melodies pretty quickly, so whatever "gloom" might be portrayed almost becomes a joke. Just like moonlight is a reflection of the sun, so should the emotions of this movement be mocking reflections of the power that is outwardly portrayed in the notes.

The name is more clear for the first movement, I guess. The second movement (to me) is a transition from the stark reality of the first movement to the playful masquerade of the third.

Now, this is just how I see the piece. I don't know what Beethoven had in mind, but this is just the way I interperet things. Hope I haven't done a wretched job of explaining myself either.

[goalevan]

any name is better than a number

[ayahav]

But Beethoven's name is fine enough - what's wrong with it? "Sonata Quasi una Fantasia", "Sonata like a Fantasy". I don't see the third movement as 'moonlight', but rather as a tempestuous storm...

[nad]

What do you think of the suitability of the name "moonlight sonata" for Beethoven's Op. 27/2...?

I don't like it either, and as you've said, it doesn't suit the 3rd movement.

"Pavane pour un infant defunt"

It's "Pavane pour une infante defunte" though.

[ayahav]

Does it really matter if it's a dead baby-boy or a dead baby-girl?   It's just as said  

[nad]

lol
Wasn't it written for his niece? So yes, it matters    

[Hmoll]

The bottom line is, if Beethoven wanted to give it a name, he would have, as he did "Les Adieux."
He gave titles to several of his works, so if he wanted to call op27#2 "moonlight," he would have.

There are lots of pieces with titles given to them that the composer never intended - "Winter Wind" etude, for example. I sometimes use those titles for the purpose if identification, but would never put them on a printed program, or other more formal identification.

I know I'm splitting hairs, but once you call a piece "Winter Wind,"  "Moonlight," "Tempest," etc. you are limiting the possiblilities of its interpretation. In any given piece, movement, section, phrase, motif, note,   there are several emotions and images you can find.  The last movement of op27#2 can sound heroic one day, tragic another day, playful another day. It depends on my mood. Why limit those possibilities with a label?

Don't mean to sound like a purist. Just my 2 cents.

[Hmoll]

That's very debatable.... You can't really say that "Pavane pour un infant defunt" is a corny title, for example.  .

Right, and of course it was Ravel - the composer - who named this piece.

[DarkWind]

lol
Wasn't it written for his niece? So yes, it matters    

It was written for the Princess Edmond of Polignac. It couldn't have a more appropriate title. It supposedly means Pavane for a Dead Princess. I can't think of a better title. Ravel, as well as Debussy, named every single piece, or if they didn't, never game the Opus numbers. The only Debussy piece with an Opus number is his String Quartet, which has the opus number of 10, although it didn't come as 10, so the choice of this is kind of a mystery... As for the Moonlight Sonata, it was supposed to be written for a Countess that he had fallen in love with. He most likely called it Moonlight because it's a very romantic title, in my opinion. As for how you interpret the pieces, that's all up to you. I really like how Mortrax put it, however . Anyways, if you're giving a name to your piece, it should really be from true feelings, or a name perfectly suitable to the piece. It should never be out of neccesity. However, it's been commonly known that named pieces have had a much higher reputation than those which don't...

[goalevan]

what does opus mean and how did they number pieces?

[DarkWind]

Opus(L.) Work; often written Op. or op. Opus number, one number in the series with which a composer marks ("numbers") his or her works.

The exact definition as given by my Schirmer Pocket Manual of Musical Terms.

[goalevan]

well I know it's just a group of a series of pieces, why did they name opus numbers the way they are for example chopin etudes op. 10 and 25 as compared to just op. 1 and 2.

[Antnee]

Yeah...

if the composer intended to give the work a name then that's the way it is. If they didn't then leave it alone!!!!
Chopin hardly ever gave any of his works names, yet almost every one is known by name, not number. Oh well, less confusing for us i guess..

-Tony-

[ayahav]

As for the Moonlight Sonata, it was supposed to be written for a Countess that he had fallen in love with. He most likely called it Moonlight because it's a very romantic title, in my opinion.

It wasn't Beethoven who named it 'Moonlight'. Beethoven named it "Sonata quasi una fantasia". Rellstab decided it reminded him of a boat trip at night on the Vierwaldstaettersee (Lake Lucerne), and stuck the title to it....

[Hmoll]

well I know it's just a group of a series of pieces, why did they name opus numbers the way they are for example chopin etudes op. 10 and 25 as compared to just op. 1 and 2.

"They" did not number those pieces. It was Chopin who gave them the opus numbers. He wrote them as sets of 12 pieces, so he gave each set its own opus number. That doesn't mean they have to be played as a set.
Likewise, Beethoven gave his compositions opus numbers.
Some other composers' works were cataloged  posthumously - Haydn (Hoboken, Landon), Mozart (Koechel), D. Scarlatti (Kirkpatrick, Longo), etc.

Trivia question - no Googling please. We all know that Beethoven's "Les Adieaux" sonata is opus 81a. What is opus 81b?

[thracozaag]

"They" did not number those pieces. It was Chopin who gave them the opus numbers. He wrote them as sets of 12 pieces, so he gave each set its own opus number. That doesn't mean they have to be played as a set.
Likewise, Beethoven gave his compositions opus numbers.
Some other composers' works were cataloged  posthumously - Haydn (Hoboken, Landon), Mozart (Koechel), D. Scarlatti (Kirkpatrick, Longo), etc.

Trivia question - no Googling please. We all know that Beethoven's "Les Adieaux" sonata is opus 81a. What is opus 81b?

 If my dim memory recalls, I think it was some sort of odd chamber music, either a sextet or septet?

koji

[Hmoll]

I remember it as a sextet - two horns and string quartet - and not a septet. Of course, maybe there was a double bass player who slipped out for a drink without me knowing it, so I only counted six players.

[goalevan]

I already know all this, and when I said they, I was referring to the composers. My question was:

why did they name opus numbers the way they are for example chopin etudes op. 10 and 25 as compared to just op. 1 and 2.

[thracozaag]

I remember it as a sextet - two horns and string quartet - and not a septet. Of course, maybe there was a double bass player who slipped out for a drink without me knowing it, so I only counted six players.

 I'm sure you're right, I've actually never heard the piece. :-/

koji

[thracozaag]

I already know all this, and when I said they, I was referring to the composers. My question was:

Opus numbers are generally done in chronological fashion, along the publication dates.

koji

[ayahav]

It has to do with the fact that if Chopin had Mazurkas Op.1, and Etudes Op.1 and Nocturnes Op.1 and Waltzes Op.1 and Ballades Op.1 things would be very confusing. So Opus number follow the works in order, so that Op.1 might be a certain work of a certain type, and opus 2 can be a different work, and when you say op.2 people would know exactly which one you mean. They wouldn't have to ask whether it's the waltzes op.2 or the etudes op.2...

[faulty_damper]

The bottom line is, if Beethoven wanted to give it a name, he would have, as he did "Les Adieux."

He didn't name it Les Adieux.  He named it Das Lebowohl.  He complained that the French had a completely different meaning than the German.

Think of his "Hunt" sonata or the "Cuckoo" sonata.  He may not have named his sonatas (he only titled two of them formally) but he wrote many of them on a theme.  And he admitted it.  Tempest and Appasionata were written on a theme by author/poet Shakespear.  The "Hunt" and "Cuckoo" are more than appropriate titles even if he didn't formally name them.  And during his time, it was not considered in good taste to name works.

[Hmoll]

He didn't name it Les Adieux.  He named it Das Lebowohl.  He complained that the French had a completely different meaning than the German.

Think of his "Hunt" sonata or the "Cuckoo" sonata.  He may not have named his sonatas (he only titled two of them formally) but he wrote many of them on a theme.  And he admitted it.  Tempest and Appasionata were written on a theme by author/poet Shakespear.  The "Hunt" and "Cuckoo" are more than appropriate titles even if he didn't formally name them.  And during his time, it was not considered in good taste to name works.

Thanks for the correction. you're right he gave it the German name.

Not sure about naming works not being in good taste, since a few of them do have names.

[faulty_damper]

Beethoven reported was pissed at the publisher for printing it in French when he wrote to them to print the title in German.  I really like the name "rage over a lost penny" because its really easy to imagine Beethoven, himself, being pissed off because he lost his penny.  And the slower lyrical section, like he's finally accepting that he won't find his penny... BUT NO!  He's not going to accept the loss of one freakin' penny!

I think titles help the audience immagine what is being told through the music.  Imagine many of Debussy's works without titles and it's pretty difficult to enjoy his music.  His preludes Book I&II, are horrible sounding if you didn't know his titles he wrote for them.  And even if you did know the title, some of them required more knowledge - General Lavine - eccentric, for example - to appreciate.  Not only does knowing more about Lavine helps, it also helps with interpretation to some parts like his bouncing balls (because he was a juggler).

Alkan put many titles to his works and they have the effect of increasing pleasure because you aren't just using your ears to listen to them.  Like Aesop's Feast, you can imagine people chomping down on food, but this also requires a bit of information on who Aesop was and the feast.  I don't even remember the story...

Grieg, March of the Trolls, you can see the trolls marching along.

Mussorgsky and his pictures.
---

I say that titles enhance what you hear and it also uses your imagination as well so it's not just music but an entire scene.

About "Moonlight" sonata:  I think this is a very deceptive title and should any non-player actually hears the entire sonata, they'd be delightfully impressed and forget about the title for a while.  It's first movement popularity may be a hurdle to get over and I assume that most people don't know what a sonata is so they'll start applauding after the first movement.

One of my classmates didn't even know the Presto Agitato was the last movement to "Moonlight" but he loved it and listened to it all the time ( recording was Rubinstein).  I'm not even sure he knew "Moonlight" was a sonata with three movements.  But he loves the last mvn't and asked me to play it (Lets just say I'm not Rubinstein.)

[ayahav]

Actually, I think music should be enjoyed for the sake of music. So I could technically enjoy Debussy's Preludes and Images without knowing the specific titles.

This is different for works where the composer aimed at portraying a picture, like Debussy (which is why the Preludes have titles) or Grieg in his Lyrical Pieces. Debussy - an impressionist - aimed at conveying the general impression, and if there's no impression to go with the music, impressionism is worthless. (Interesting though unconfirmed Trivia: Debussy's only titleless work is his String Quartet). Grieg's Lyrical Pieces, the ones which have titles, also started from the title, as opposed to sticking a title on a complete work of music.