Hanon or Liszt?

[tcovenent]

I want to start doing more technical exercises, and I'm torn between Hanon's "The Virtuoso Pianist In 60 Exercises" and Liszt's "Technical Excersizes" (Not the etudes). I've heard Hanon's book, which is a standard, has a better learning curve and can be picked up at my level. However I've heard people say that Liszt's book is far superior and shows results in playing a lot quicker (Rather than just being able to do the excersizes better) despite it's difficulty, I've also heard that it shouldn't be picked up at an early level.

I'd like to hear some opinions before making my decision

[chopinfan_22]

I've heard mixed things about both technical exercises. The biggest issue that many have with Hanon is that overuse and exension tend to create problems... such as tendonitis, carpel tunnel syndrome, etc. I have Hanon.

I only use the scale section of my Hanon exercises, really. If you're going to go through the whole book, I suggest, and I stress, playing the exercises slowly and accurately. Do not be in any hurry to play the exercises or to burn through the book. I think using Hanon has helped me, but you must be careful to use Hanon correctly. It's not for everybody.

As far as the Liszt Technical exercises go... I've seen a copy, but never bought it. I intend to, once I become a better pianist.

[Bob]

I haven't done Liszt, that I know of.  I found them but took a look and balked.  I'm not sure which ones I looked at.  It was many years ago

Hanon is easier I think.  Easy to read.  Easy to transpose.  It's just patterns. 

Start on Hanon.  Then add Liszt.

There are other exercises too.  Pischna, Schmitt, Brahms wrote some even... I can't remember them all. 

And then you can always make your own.  I think that's a very useful skill for working on lit, to be able to develop an exercise that will help you on a piece.  Or just to develop your own stuff that targets the skills you want.

[chopinfan_22]

Bob is right. Another view that others have is to completely abandon exercise books and focus completely on pieces. Then, once you come to a technical problem that you can't quite conquer, continually practice it or develop your own exercises to help with that problem.

[dan101]

I would go for Liszt over Hanon, although personally I like the Brahms' exercises even more.

[point of grace]

hanon first

[danny elfboy]

I'm surprised to read that people say that any of these "show results faster"
What results? When you can play a technical exercise you become able to play that exercise, perdio. There's very little to extrapolate to other pieces or piano skill in general.
When you are able to play 60 technical exercises, you're able to play those 60 exercises period. Doing exercises doesn't magically result in facility and coordination at the keyboard as far as other patterns, sounds and pieces are concerned. That's because piano playing has little to do with exercising the hands and almost everything to do with mental coordination.

[gerryjay]

I'm surprised to read that people say that any of these "show results faster"
What results? When you can play a technical exercise you become able to play that exercise, perdio. There's very little to extrapolate to other pieces or piano skill in general.
When you are able to play 60 technical exercises, you're able to play those 60 exercises period. Doing exercises doesn't magically result in facility and coordination at the keyboard as far as other patterns, sounds and pieces are concerned. That's because piano playing has little to do with exercising the hands and almost everything to do with mental coordination.

seconded!
 i did lots of hanon and the like, and yet it probably have influenced to some point my technique, its results are very narrow. much better to work directly on the repertory, exploring movimentation and coordination and solving to the most high possible level every issue.
 anyway, from hanon-lovers to hanonlessness there are all conceivable opinions.

[faulty_damper]

seconded!
 i did lots of hanon and the like, and yet it probably have influenced to some point my technique, its results are very narrow. much better to work directly on the repertory, exploring movimentation and coordination and solving to the most high possible level every issue.
 anyway, from hanon-lovers to hanonlessness there are all conceivable opinions.

I have to disagree.  Working on repertory actually requires you to think about what you are doing.  This is dangerous to both mind and spirit.  It's so much easier exercising the fingers and only the fingers.  Once the mind is involved, everything become difficult.  So Charles had it right when he wrote these finger exercises: they are exercises for the fingers!  God forbid those who actually think they can play the piano without having done these 60 exercises - they are the 60 Commandments of the Piano.

[thierry13]

What results?

Maybe they DO see more results than YOU decided they would have ? If they said they saw results, maybe they DID have more facility than before to play harder things, didn't that occur to you ? Piano playing is mostly mental, I can't agree more, but to make your fingers answer the brain they need exercising. You can not lift 300 pounds because you just know how to do it. You must both know how to do it without hurting yourself andddd exercise ... same at the piano, i'm only talking about the technical aspect there. Now, I do NOT think Hanon has the best exercises, and doing the exercises as hanon suggests is wrong, too. The best exercise book is Pischna I think, under direction from a good teacher of course.

[thalbergmad]

I never understood the immense amount of Hanon bashing that used to exist on this forum.

To me, it is useful because you are solving mechanical problems via exercise before you encounter difficulties in repetoire.

For instance, if you work on your 3rds and 6ths with Hanon, when you come to Brahms Paganini Variations, you have prepared well to play it. If you do not, you are simply using a great piece of music as an exercise.

Thal

[gerryjay]

I have to disagree.  Working on repertory actually requires you to think about what you are doing.  This is dangerous to both mind and spirit.  It's so much easier exercising the fingers and only the fingers.  Once the mind is involved, everything become difficult.  So Charles had it right when he wrote these finger exercises: they are exercises for the fingers!  God forbid those who actually think they can play the piano without having done these 60 exercises - they are the 60 Commandments of the Piano.

hey faulty!
no problem.  however, notice that you misunderstood a bit my point.
i agree with you that when you're concerned with a whole piece, you can't appropriately work on your technique. what i was talking about is somewhat different: when you hit something difficult on a music, isolate that part and work on it until it is perfect (HS, HT, whatever it needs). when playing like this, you have almost nothing to concern but your fingers, so it works. i can assure. 
however, it's only my experience getting better results this way than hanon way. in the end, what matters is to evolve, have a light that leads the path. 

[gerryjay]

I never understood the immense amount of Hanon bashing that used to exist on this forum.

hey thal!
i read a lot of old posts and noticed the same. i think it's due to a reaction against a "hanon-must" that seems to did spread along the years. to be honest, i don't know since when and where it's a rule, but in my experience, all teachers used hanon and only hanon (pischna seemed already a "detour"). does it work? many people would say yes, but a lot of other won't. so, it's a matter of try hanon and see what happens, but to know that's not the only way.
the problem is, when someone try to work hard on this exercises without proper guidance, it can be very harmful, and hanon don't have a warning sign in its cover. 

[swim4ever_22]

Because of this post I've decided to give hanon an actual shot. I never really used the exercises aside from scale work. But right now I'm learning the first ten patterns, first hands separate, and I'm doing them fairly slowly (it takes about a minute per exercise). I would feel tightness in the forearms around exercise 4 or 5 but it would eventually go away after exercise 7 or 8. If I ever encountered pain, I would do the exercises so slowly that I would hit a note, then 5 - 10 seconds later, hit the next note. I've done that everyday for the past week, and I feel that after I have done just those ten exercises, I can play my scales much faster. I also feel no more pain when doing the exercises... at least, not yet. I will still be keeping a close watch on them.

[swim4ever_22]

And would anyone happen to have the Pischna exercises? I'd like to take a look at them.

[danny elfboy]

I have to disagree.  Working on repertory actually requires you to think about what you are doing.  This is dangerous to both mind and spirit.  It's so much easier exercising the fingers and only the fingers. 

There's nothing to exercise that's the problem.
Piano playing has nothing to do with finger strength, muscular strength or working out the fingers. It's all about training your ability to know what to do before you do it.
Otherwise devices that "strengthen" the muscles of the hands and the arms would be of benefit to pianists ... while they are not.

This is my only problem with technical exercises, that they all have been created in a period in which we were so naive to believe that the issues of piano were physical.
The only difference between a pianist and non-pianist is having learned how to control quickly the response of contraction and release of the muscles. Now if we could download such neuromuscular programming from a pianist to a 10 year old skinny non pianist the 10 year old would suddenly become a virtuoso pianist overnight because the condition of his muscles has nothing to do with how cordinately or properly he plays the piano.

[danny elfboy]

Maybe they DO see more results than YOU decided they would have ? If they said they saw results, maybe they DID have more facility than before to play harder things, didn't that occur to you ? Piano playing is mostly mental, I can't agree more, but to make your fingers answer the brain they need exercising.

It's the opposite.
To make your fingers answer the brain you BRAIN needs exercising.
All the hours are practiced have the effect of training a neuromuscular coordinative response ... they have nothing to do with working out the non-existant muscles of the fingers and the small muscles of the hand.

[faulty_damper]

The sarcasm of my previous post was noted.

In truth, Hanon has done nothing to advance my abilities to play the piano but it wasn't entirely useless: it advanced my understanding of piano playing.  I understand now why I didn't become a better pianist doing those mindless exercises: they were fundamentally flawed to begin with.

I would practice them tirelessly for 3 hours a day thinking I'll be a "virtuoso pianist in 60 easy exercises".  It didn't take a genius to realize that they didn't work!  I had pain in my left hand and thought I just needed to practice more to strengthen them up so it wouldn't hurt.  It didn't take a genius to realize the reason it hurt was because I was doing the exercises.

And what pieces of music could I play that suddenly became better as a result of these exercises?  None.  They were all as difficult before the exercises.
----------------

I couldn't tell you at the time that Hanon was actually making my piano playing worse.  I was naive and really taken in by the "Virtuso pianist" claim on the cover.  But I can tell you now that all of that effort and time (and pain) caused me to defend it.  It's like betting a lot of money on a team and the team is losing.  Are you going to stop supporting the team?  Of course not!  You are still going to hope they will win because you already invested a lot of your money on it.  This is the mindset those who defend Hanon have.  They defend it because they have invested hundreds of hours on it and don't want to think they wasted their time and energy on someting so fruitless.  They want to think they recieved a return on their investment.

[danny elfboy]

The sarcasm of my previous post was noted.

God forbid those who actually think they can make sarcasm without having used these 17 emoticons 

[swim4ever_22]

Perhaps there are some of the exercises that are useful? What about the scale work? Not only is every scale in the book, but also different ways of playing them, such as octaves in broken chords, or scales in thirds, fifths, sixths, octaves, chromatic scales. Then you have the arpeggios for each scale done in four octaves. I personally find those exercises to be useful. What about those?

[faulty_damper]

Perhaps there are some of the exercises that are useful? What about the scale work? Not only is every scale in the book, but also different ways of playing them, such as octaves in broken chords, or scales in thirds, fifths, sixths, octaves, chromatic scales. Then you have the arpeggios for each scale done in four octaves. I personally find those exercises to be useful. What about those?

Are the first things you say in the morning "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"?  Then is it followed in the reverse "ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA"?  Then do you do arpeggios "ACEGIKMOQSUWY"?  Then do you start on B "BDFHJLNPRTVXZ"? And don't forget to reverse it "ZXVTRPNLJHFDB"!  And then for more advanced patterns "ACBDCEDF...."

Does this even remotely seem rediculous to you?  And yet this is exactly what Hanon wants you to do.

There is a world of difference between learning how to play scales, arpegios, etc. and using them as finger exercises.  The learning part requires intelligent practice just like learnig repertoire.  Once they are learned, they require no more practice because they have served their purpose.

Yet Hanon wants you to practice your alphabets for 45 minutes every day for the rest of your life so that you will be a virtuoso pianist in only 60 easy exercises.  But wait, there's more!  Call within the next 5 mintues and you'll automatically recieve tendonitis absolutely FREE!  And as a special one-time offer you'll get a bonus two tendonitises in both hands, _{just pay shipping and handling}.

[gerryjay]

Are the first things you say in the morning "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"?  Then is it followed in the reverse "ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA"?  Then do you do arpeggios "ACEGIKMOQSUWY"?  Then do you start on B "BDFHJLNPRTVXZ"? And don't forget to reverse it "ZXVTRPNLJHFDB"!  And then for more advanced patterns "ACBDCEDF...."

Yet Hanon wants you to practice your alphabets for 45 minutes every day for the rest of your life so that you will be a virtuoso pianist in only 60 easy exercises.  But wait, there's more!  Call within the next 5 mintues and you'll automatically recieve tendonitis absolutely FREE!  And as a special one-time offer you'll get a bonus two tendonitises in both hands, _{just pay shipping and handling}.

 
 that is first in my top ten posts in this forum!

[swim4ever_22]

Are the first things you say in the morning "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"?  Then is it followed in the reverse "ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA"?  Then do you do arpeggios "ACEGIKMOQSUWY"?  Then do you start on B "BDFHJLNPRTVXZ"? And don't forget to reverse it "ZXVTRPNLJHFDB"!  And then for more advanced patterns "ACBDCEDF...."

Does this even remotely seem rediculous to you?  And yet this is exactly what Hanon wants you to do.

There is a world of difference between learning how to play scales, arpegios, etc. and using them as finger exercises.  The learning part requires intelligent practice just like learnig repertoire.  Once they are learned, they require no more practice because they have served their purpose.

Yet Hanon wants you to practice your alphabets for 45 minutes every day for the rest of your life so that you will be a virtuoso pianist in only 60 easy exercises.  But wait, there's more!  Call within the next 5 mintues and you'll automatically recieve tendonitis absolutely FREE!  And as a special one-time offer you'll get a bonus two tendonitises in both hands, _{just pay shipping and handling}.

But there you are wrong. You assume I use them as exercises, when actually I use that section of the book to learn the scales and arpeggios. I don't sit there for an hour mindlessly running through drills. If I want to do something different than the single-note  parallel runs, then I do something different. Thirds. Sixths. Octaves, and so on, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[danny elfboy]

But there you are wrong. You assume I use them as exercises, when actually I use that section of the book to learn the scales and arpeggios. I don't sit there for an hour mindlessly running through drills. If I want to do something different than the single-note  parallel runs, then I do something different. Thirds. Sixths. Octaves, and so on, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But why bying the Hanon and spending the full price of the book to just use a small section of it. There are very complete and affordable books on scales and arpeggios out there covering everything (in larger characters too) from contrary motions to sixth and arpeggios and chords.

[swim4ever_22]

But why bying the Hanon and spending the full price of the book to just use a small section of it. There are very complete and affordable books on scales and arpeggios out there covering everything (in larger characters too) from contrary motions to sixth and arpeggios and chords.

My edition of Hanon was a hand-me-down from my sisters, and it was given to them by our instructor who has taught all of us. Our instructor was a Hanonite, and still is to this day, and I used to have to do the exercises when I was little. The beginning exercises she uses for the younger students... the older students focus on the scale/arpeggio sections. So... I never really bought it... I'm not saying her way is right or that her way is wrong.

This past week, I decided to give Hanon the benefit of the doubt and try it again to see if there would be an effective approach to the exercises. I can't say that there is, but since I have the book, I don't need another book on scale work. It's already in Hanon.

Personally, I think there must be some merit to technical exercises, perhaps NOT Hanon... but maybe Pischna, Schmitt, or Liszt's technical exercises? There must be a reason that so many exercise books exist, and there must be some use. I don't agree with just fully using repertoire as "technical exercises" because in so doing you force pieces to become exercises... tools to serve your purpose... no longer music.

[faulty_damper]

But there you are wrong. You assume I use them as exercises, when actually I use that section of the book to learn the scales and arpeggios. I don't sit there for an hour mindlessly running through drills. If I want to do something different than the single-note  parallel runs, then I do something different. Thirds. Sixths. Octaves, and so on, and there's nothing wrong with that.

So in other words, you are not actually doing what Charles has asked you to do.  Which means you are not actually taking Charles's advice.  Which means you are actual NOT a Hanonitee.

Believe it or not, the most effective way to learn scales and arpeggios is by rote and NOT by reading.  After learning a couple of scales and arpeggios, the next thing to do is to learn HOW scales and arpeggios are constructed and then to learn more scales and arpeggios using that knowledge.  You don't need a book to do that and you could easily learn to write down scales so you are familiar with how they look like on page.

[swim4ever_22]

So in other words, you are not actually doing what Charles has asked you to do.  Which means you are not actually taking Charles's advice.  Which means you are actual NOT a Hanonitee.[\quote]

Correct. I just use the book of Hanon because it is what I have as a resource. Though I have given the exercises countless shots in the past... I can't say I'm convinced that they work.

Believe it or not, the most effective way to learn scales and arpeggios is by rote and NOT by reading.  After learning a couple of scales and arpeggios, the next thing to do is to learn HOW scales and arpeggios are constructed and then to learn more scales and arpeggios using that knowledge.  You don't need a book to do that and you could easily learn to write down scales so you are familiar with how they look like on page.

While I can't say I agree or disagree on this issue, simply because I haven't done it, wouldn't one need a prior knowledge of each scale before being able to pull it from memory? How can you pull from memory something which you had no prior knowledge of. All I know about scales is that there are 36 of them, including major and both types of minor. I know the basic rules of scale construction are that the harmonic minor has a raised seventh, and the melodic minor has a raised 6th and 7th ascending, and a lowered 6th and 7th descending, or natural minor. That is all I know. So you are saying that with only this as my prior knowledge, I can construct all 36 scales?

[thierry13]

It's the opposite.
To make your fingers answer the brain you BRAIN needs exercising.
All the hours are practiced have the effect of training a neuromuscular coordinative response ... they have nothing to do with working out the non-existant muscles of the fingers and the small muscles of the hand.

It's not about developping muscles, developing the muscles of the hand only makes it stiffer and less flexible. You simply actually got to take conscience of the difference between the nerves of each finger, and accentuating that difference. You CAN think about it ... but it's only with dumb repetition you will see any durable and safe result.

[swim4ever_22]

It's not about developping muscles, developing the muscles of the hand only makes it stiffer and less flexible. You simply actually got to take conscience of the difference between the nerves of each finger, and accentuating that difference. You CAN think about it ... but it's only with dumb repetition you will see any durable and safe result.

Correct me if I'm mistaken... but isn't that what D_E is saying?

[faulty_damper]

All I know about scales is that there are 36 of them, including major and both types of minor. I know the basic rules of scale construction are that the harmonic minor has a raised seventh, and the melodic minor has a raised 6th and 7th ascending, and a lowered 6th and 7th descending, or natural minor. That is all I know. So you are saying that with only this as my prior knowledge, I can construct all 36 scales?

Yes.  What you are describing about scale degrees and scale construction are exactly what you can use to form all common Western scales.  You just apply it to any note on the keyboard and lay it out from there.  It's easy and I can show an absolute beginner how to play a scale just by teaching them the major and minor steps patterns and they can then play all of the major scales on each of the 12 different notes.  All this can be in learned in the very first lesson; it doesn't take months and it doesn't take a book.

While I can't say I agree or disagree on this issue, simply because I haven't done it, wouldn't one need a prior knowledge of each scale before being able to pull it from memory? How can you pull from memory something which you had no prior knowledge of.

Can you say a something that you have never ever said before in your life?  Of course, you do it all the time.  You couldn't hold a conversation without it.  Noam Chomsky calls this generative grammar.  You already know the rules of grammar and you can say anything you want and will be understood as long as you follow the rules of grammar.  You can play any scale starting on any note as long as you follow the "grammar" of the scale.  But this requires you know the "grammar".  For a major scale it is: WWHWWWH.

[danny elfboy]

Personally, I think there must be some merit to technical exercises, perhaps NOT Hanon... but maybe Pischna, Schmitt, or Liszt's technical exercises? There must be a reason that so many exercise books exist, and there must be some use. I don't agree with just fully using repertoire as "technical exercises" because in so doing you force pieces to become exercises... tools to serve your purpose... no longer music.

Exercises have been invented because it was thought that to play the piano one must have strong fingers. Hence they were used as finger workouts before playing the real pieces. The truth is that finger strength has nothing to do with the ability to play the piano and better knowledge in functional anatomy shows us which is a matter of neuromuscular control not of strength, hence there's no finger muscles to train but coordination and reflexes to develop and this doesn't require exercises just music.

[thalbergmad]

as a special one-time offer you'll get a bonus two tendonitises in both hands

If you have a faulty playing mechanism, you could get tendonitis from scratching your butt.

Hanon won't give it to you.

Thal

[general disarray]

If you have a faulty playing mechanism, you could get tendonitis from scratching your butt.

Hanon won't give it to you.

Thal

  Words of thalbergmadian wisdom!

(But, Hanon did give me crabs one summer.)

[thalbergmad]

If what some people said were true, every hospital would have its own "Hanon" ward, full with crippled pianists.

In addition, every Government would demand that each edition was labelled with a health warning like cigarette packets:

"Warning - playing the enclosed exercises seriously damages your hands"

I believe that every pianist should experiment and find out what works for them through trial and error, as opposed to undertaking a 20 year 6 million page study into why Hanon doesn't.

Thal

[dnephi]

If what some people said were true, every hospital would have its own "Hanon" ward, full with crippled pianists.

In addition, every Government would demand that each edition was labelled with a health warning like cigarette packets:

"Warning - playing the enclosed exercises seriously damages your hands"

I believe that every pianist should experiment and find out what works for them through trial and error, as opposed to undertaking a 20 year 6 million page study into why Hanon doesn't.

Thal

I know of many fine pianists who used Hanon.  Danny Elfboy is just trying to assure himself that he doesn't need to play exercises and put in that time. 

Good luck, sir.

I would recommend the Liszt exercises as a way of polishing a well-rounded technique, rather than a way of developing it.

[thalbergmad]

I think Mr Elfboy makes some interesting points, i am just not convinced you can develop and maintain an efficient playing mechanism without the use of exercises.

Fine if you are an experienced pianist with a varied repetiore, but try playing nothing but Mozart for 3 months and you will lose certain abilities. Schnabel himself said as much.

Interesting debate that has been going on in this forum for years and will continue to do so until hell freezes over.

Thal

[dnephi]

Pogorelich said that we should keep always something virtuosic and something polyphonic in our repertoire, to keep both fingers and mind in order.

[pianogeek_cz]

I'm pretty surprised nobody mentioned the Dohnanyi excercises yet. They (and some Czerny, but the latter significantly less so) have actually really helped me. They do get rather difficult, though (some of the harder ones can be quite exhausting), and have to be done properly, so as to avoid health problems. But just the first few have given me quite a lot (And I use them as a really cool warm-up. Gets both the head and fingers running).

[faulty_damper]

I think Mr Elfboy makes some interesting points, i am just not convinced you can develop and maintain an efficient playing mechanism without the use of exercises.

Fine if you are an experienced pianist with a varied repetiore, but try playing nothing but Mozart for 3 months and you will lose certain abilities. Schnabel himself said as much.

Interesting debate that has been going on in this forum for years and will continue to do so until hell freezes over.

Thal

You are using Schabel's word as an example yet he had a faulty technique which manifested itself with poor control and many missed notes.  He, too, was a woodchopper at the keyboard.  So, too, is Pogorelich.

The mistake is to assume your fingers do most of the work.  They don't.  They are just one part of an integrated whole, assuming the whole is actually used.  If just the fingers are focussed on, then what ends up happening is hours of practice of upkeep to maintain any gain inabilities with no sight of satifaction.  It just needs "more practice".

Most musicians who experience pain assume it is normal.  Rarely do they go seek treatment unless it is debilitatingly severe like the development of tendonitis or pinched nerves which makes playing without pain impossible.

Playing piano doesn't kill people.  Smoking does and it is a poor comparison to make.  Intelligent teachers who know about this issue have strong opinions against using such exercises and are actively opposed to it.  They know the results of it because they did these exercises when they were young and have had time to reflect upon their experiences.

[faulty_damper]

I know of many fine pianists who used Hanon. 

I know of many other fine musicians who used drugs.  Kurt Cobaine, Jimi Hendrix, Ike Turner...  Clearly, the drugs were the cause of their fame (and untimately, death.)

I don't think any musician can be good without the use of drugs.  Do you?  Horowitz was clearly addited to crack coccaine.  How else could he be so good?  And he practiced Hanon religiously.  Can I get a Hanon with that hit?

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, playing piano does not kill people and neither does Hanon.

The mistake (if there is one) is to try and find a method that is suitable for all pupils. Nobody has ever done it and nobody ever will.

Do I take it that all teachers who propose using these exercises are therefore unintellegent? If that is correct, there must be thousands who should not be teaching at all and many that by some miracle have produced good pianists who won't be permanently crippled by middle age.

Thal

[faulty_damper]

Unintelligent? Of course not.  Misguided.

[dnephi]

Pogorelich had a mighty fine technique, and you would do well to respect him.  Besides, what on earth does keeping virtuosic and polyphonic works in your repertoire have to do with your artistic attack?

[swim4ever_22]

The point that Thal makes is a good one. The goal is to be able to play whatever is set in front of you, whatever piece of music you have your heart set on. With this in mind, the way you get there is irrelevant, just so long as you get there..

Experimenting and finding out what best works for you is indeed a logical approach. You can denounce technical exercises; Hanon, Pischna, Czerny, Cramer, Dohnanyi, Liszt, Brahms, and all the others that conceived them, but that's not going to do you any good. For the beginning pianist, technical exercises must have some merit at developing the hand and allowing the student to perceive how the hand moves across the keys. That does not mean practice technical exercises religiously and never resort to pieces. On the same token, that does not mean practice only repertoire and burn every technique book you can get your hands on. Your analogies to musicians and drugs is just as poor as Thal's analogy with smoking.

How can you say that practicing technical exercises, scales, arpeggios, runs in thirds, sixths, etc. is a waste of time? When you think about it, the exercises are just like etudes. So I guess that means that the etudes of Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, and Rachmaninoff are all a waste of time, since they don't really develop anything, and since there's nothing to develop, the only things you will get out of them are tendonitis and carpal tunnel.

You can't say that technical exercises are the root of all playing problems, and that they are responsible for all injuries. Improper piano playing causes the injuries, regardless of what literature of music you decide to set in front of you.

[danny elfboy]

Let's find a middle ground shall we?

If we think of exercises as workout for fingers that need to be strengthenes, then both the exercises and this mindset will produce a lot of problems (maybe injuries) and will be of little help.

If we think of exercises as musical practice to develop the mind-muscles coordination required to play the piano (i.e. knowing what keys to play before you play them) then they might be of help and don't cause injury. After all it's not what you play that might cause injury but how you play it. And once we develop an healthy coordination at the piano there's no reason to believe that Hanon can't be played using that kind of coordination hence safely and proficiently.

But since we're talking about musical practice musicality remains an area which should never be removed from practice. I have posted lately about my experience with teachers expecting their pupils to first learn the notes and rhythm perfectly and only later allowing the use dynamic, interpretation and expression. This approach is not only unhealthy for one's musicality and sense of music and musical training but it's also in my experience unhealthy for ones technique since usually interpretation, dynamic and expression and pre-requisite to being able to master a technique.

Hence the difference between all the unmusical exercises like Hanon or the Gradus and the musical Etudes of Chopin or Liszt. The difference is that the former have been designed to be unmusical because they're the product of the belief that we need "fingers workout" other than music. The latter instead have been designed to be musical pieces BUT with a focus in a particular technique. In face Chopin and Liszt were not believers of the outdates "finger workout" philosophy.

[swim4ever_22]

If we think of exercises as musical practice to develop the mind-muscles coordination required to play the piano (i.e. knowing what keys to play before you play them) then they might be of help and don't cause injury. After all it's not what you play that might cause injury but how you play it. And once we develop an healthy coordination at the piano there's no reason to believe that Hanon can't be played using that kind of coordination hence safely and proficiently.

But since we're talking about musical practice musicality remains an area which should never be removed from practice. I have posted lately about my experience with teachers expecting their pupils to first learn the notes and rhythm perfectly and only later allowing the use dynamic, interpretation and expression. This approach is not only unhealthy for one's musicality and sense of music and musical training but it's also in my experience unhealthy for ones technique since usually interpretation, dynamic and expression and pre-requisite to being able to master a technique.

Exactly.

[rc]

I agree with Thalbergmad and swim, whether through repertoire or exercises you wind up practicing the same basic skills.  The choice is sooner, or later.  A masterpiece can be practiced mindlessly just as a drill can be practiced attentively, that's a non-issue: whatever you play, play it well.

I came here around the Bernhard days, so I was anti-Hanon/pro-rep from the beginning.

Eventually I decided I wanted to have a strong foundation in technique, straightforward scales/chords/arpeggios.  Then I'd elaborate by practicing these in various patterns, dynamics, articulations, key changes.  Sometimes technical work starts sounding like improvisation (crappy improv in my case).

The idea is to make these common musical patterns second-nature in the hands, because there is no doubt in my mind that there is an important element of subconscious muscle memory in the kind of technique that goes with me wherever I venture.  The idea is to more easily be able to play anything put before me, like swim said.

Well, Hanon created his exercises differently than I would have but the idea seems to be the same.  After starting anti-hanon, it seems I've found my own way of reinventing hanon afterall.

I really don't think it's so evil anymore.

[thalbergmad]

After all it's not what you play that might cause injury but how you play it.

100% behind you on that one.

I appear to have lost my chiroplast. Has anyone seen it?

Thal

[schubertiad]

Using piano giants such as pogorelich, horowitz, cortot etc as points of reference is something of a mistake, i think. It didn't really matter what they did, their irrepressible musical genius would have shown itself regardless. Cziffra spent his first years without musical training, banging a tiny portable keyboard in the gypsy circus. It's safe to say that most of us following the same path would not come out with his prodigious technique. Ditto Richter who was largely self-taught until his twenties (by the way he never practised scales or exercises at all). By the same token, it's best not to look at what hanon does to a teacher's most talented students, but rather how it affects the playing of their average (or worse than average) students. For most of them Hanon's effectiveness is a moot point since they never ever agree to practise it...