Liszt

[green]

Liszt

[monk]

Bullshit.

If Liszt or Saint Saens really used that (which I doubt very much), they were fantastic pianists IN SPITE of it. Their bodys were already so balanced and well-trained that such experiments couldn't throw them off-balance.

Like many jazz pianists use awful, un-useful movements and are great IN SPITE of them.

The piano is played with the whole body, whether you want it or not! Trying to restrict the movements on the fingers will produce bad habits, if not pain or damage of the body.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Hmoll]

Anyone ever heard of a 'guide de main' (Hand guide), it consists of a bar used for the wrist to rest on to inhibit all arm weight and motion. Intended for slow practice of course, and specifically to train the fingers. Now I have heard that Liszt used one up until his 20's? Also Saint Saens is said to have been trained on one. Many others too I suspect...

Never seen it, but it seems like it's from a school of piano technique that's long been refuted. Remember, Liszt studied with Czerny, and Czerny was all for "quiet hand," and complete finger independence. This is the type of technique that does not work, and caused injury when tried to apply with music after the classical era.

[donjuan]

Liszt studied with Czerny, and Czerny was all for "quiet hand," and complete finger independence. This is the type of technique that does not work, and caused injury when tried to apply with music after the classical era.

Hi Hmoll,
Independent fingers are VERY important to play many different types of music.  In many works of Liszt -Eg. Grand Galop Chromatique, Soirees de Vienne No.6- you need to hold down chords while playing melodies and grace notes-ALL WITH THE SAME HAND!!  Yo need independent fingers to do this.  
And as for your comment about not using independent finger technique after the classical era, that's also nonsense.  In Prokofiev's march From the Love for 3 Oranges, to play it properly, notes must be held down with the thumb while the melody plays with all the other fingers.  You will not succeed in performing many different types of work without independent fingers.  Of course- hand weight, inertia, momentum, al the other techniques have value too.  However, never say there is no use for the independent fingers and quiet hand technique.
donjuan  

[monk]

Hey folks, this discussion is just nonsense.

Yes, you need independent fingers, no doubt.
But for independent fingers, you don't need a "quiet" hand!

That's a plainly wrong, superstitious belief only people can have who know very little about anatomy, physiology and the mechanics of movement.

Holding one part of the body still (=stiffly) when exercising another part is a sign of too strong, too narrow concentration which hinders the natural balance of the body and the flow of the music. (Just like when holding one's breath.)

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Hmoll]

Hi Hmoll,
Independent fingers are VERY important to play many different types of music.  In many works of Liszt -Eg. Grand Galop Chromatique, Soirees de Vienne No.6- you need to hold down chords while playing melodies and grace notes-ALL WITH THE SAME HAND!!  Yo need independent fingers to do this.  
And as for your comment about not using independent finger technique after the classical era, that's also nonsense.  In Prokofiev's march From the Love for 3 Oranges, to play it properly, notes must be held down with the thumb while the melody plays with all the other fingers.  You will not succeed in performing many different types of work without independent fingers.  Of course- hand weight, inertia, momentum, al the other techniques have value too.  However, never say there is no use for the independent fingers and quiet hand technique.
donjuan  

Who said you don't need independent fingers?

What I am saying is the type of technique where you keep the wrist still, like that apparatus described seems to be disigned for - and utilize finger independence almost exclusively is a technique that has been refuted.

It's blindingly obvious that finger independence is important. However, a contraption that keeps your wrist in stationary seems like a formula for injury, as is complete finger independence at the expense of wrist, forearm, upper arm, shoulder.

Yes, I understand the concept of different fingers playing different notes, voices, ornaments... I do play the piano, after all. You won't get through page one of the Love of 3 Oranges march, "Grand Galop," or any other difficult piece using fingers alone. I think you already know that.

[donjuan]

Hi Hmoll,
thank you for clarifying that.  Of course I understand the whole body must be used to play the piano without injury- besides, the sound is less harsh that way.  
donjuan