Age Recommendation

[timland]

I'm attempting to teach a 9 year old child how a scale is constructed (where the half and whole steps are) and it all seems to be going over her head. I don't know if I should have more patience and take it slower or wait until she's older. She's been taking lessons for 3 months and everything else has been going well.
I would appreciate any opinions on this.

Thanks,

Tim

[amanfang]

Have you tried teaching pentachords first?  That would give the idea of half and whole steps first without going to the whole scale.  Or what about using tetrachord scales?  That too would give them the idea of half steps and whole steps, they could see the entire scale under both hands at the same time.  Then switch to one hand playing the scale. 

[Bob]

It might be a development thing.  She might not have her mind wired up to understand the concepts yet.

I would just break it down like amanfang says.  Whole step, half step.  Five finger patterns.  That might be a lot to take in, even seeing the 5-pat on the keyboard.  Probably much easier after learning C, F, G 5-pats.

[danny elfboy]

It's not a development thing.
Certain people are wired for certain concepts and never get other ones.
For example highly creative people with a spatial, atemporal, analogic perception never grasp concepts that resides in the temporal, analytic and linear real and viceversa.

That being said musicians usually grasp the concept of scales pretty well if nothing for the fact that the seemingly unrelated theory becomes soon a practical mean.

A 9 years old who don't understand scales needs to be provided with an alternative way to explain them, a way which relies more on the practical and analogical. There's no way this kid is just not able to understand scales. Find the correct way and she will wonder how such simple concept could defy her.

[dan101]

Copying seems to work better for my students than the math approach at the age that you've mentioned. In my experience as a piano and band teacher, the semitone approach seems to take off at around the age of twelve or thirteen.

[danny elfboy]

I have noticed instead that young kids hate things when they're in a vacuum and tend actually to understand things better when they're given a context, an history and a reason for the things they're being told. After all asking "why?" is a natural trait children exhibit and tend unfortunately to lose when they grow.

For example explaining how the scale came to life skimming the overtone series and explaining that certain notes are natural relatives of other notes and hence are more likely to belong to a certain tonality just like your cousins and uncles are more likely to be often in your house than strange people from the street helps a lot; it provides a solid context to cling to when trying to make sense of scales without which it just seems a lot of words without meaning. And the fact that concepts in a vacuum are not understood by children shows how smarter they are.

Yes copying allows almost everyone with some time to play a scale.
But if you don't understand what a scale is and why you should know it ... there's no point at all in learning scales. Following the instruction of playing a series of notes in a given sequence is not that usefull.

[Bob]

I remember the brain is full size at age seven, but I don't think they have the full abstract reasoning ability set in place by that age.  I forget when that develops.  All the education theories.

Most of my students were impressed that a half step sounds like Jaws (if they've seen the movie).  I would keep it as real as possible, using the keyboard and the sound.  The C Major scale already has the whole steps marked out by the black keys too if that helps.

[danny elfboy]

I remember the brain is full size at age seven, but I don't think they have the full abstract reasoning ability set in place by that age.  I forget when that develops.  All the education theories.

Later, according to the flawed theories of Piaget which have been extensively disproven by modern researchers and studies. The problem with the theory is that it extrapolated the social status and environment of the child to the age when there was no connection between the two while the real relevant factor was the former. It is known nowadays that children as young as 4  possess the kind of abstract reasoning that Piaget believed to develop (magically I would add) only at 11-12. In other words they can develop whatever faculty at whatever age as long as they're given a chance to use them or are surrounded by people who us them (or they might never develop certain faculties even at 40)

Most of my students were impressed that a half step sounds like Jaws (if they've seen the movie).  I would keep it as real as possible, using the keyboard and the sound.

I like this approach because it is a way to put theory into practice.
For example students usually have a lot of problems with rhythmic figurations, expecially complex ones. They have problem grasping how they might sound or how to count them but as soon as they listen to those rhythmic figuration in real life music all the doubts dissolve.
And yet the majority of teacher still keeps the theorical understanding of complex rhythmic figuration separated from the real life application of them in everyday music. It's just absurd.

[nasalstein]

  And the fact that concepts in a vacuum are not understood by children shows how smarter they are.

danny, please explain a little further about this. its been my idea for quite a while as well. (that those who seemingly understand concepts in a vacuum very well are not necessarily "smarter" than who dont)
i am curious.

I have noticed instead that young kids hate things when they're in a vacuum and tend actually to understand things better when they're given a context, an history and a reason for the things they're being told. After all asking "why?" is a natural trait children exhibit and tend unfortunately to lose when they grow.

i am still like a child...... 

[timland]

I Like dan101's idea of copying things down. I could make up some worksheets with a key showing what intervals have the half and whole steps and have her write out the letter name of each degree of the 12 major scales. Later I could have her do it again but without the key.

I guess the main question I had was if a 9 year old was capable of understanding this or if I should wait a couple years.

[hyrst]

The age doesn't sound like the issue - 9 is quite mature in many respects and I have students much younger who can deal easily with this.  It is timing and approach - she has only been learning piano for 3 months, I think you said! 

On the written side, I tend to seperate key signatures as something to learn and intervlas as another.  I approach a scale as a group of 8 notes.  Intervals are easy - just count up the number of lines and spaces.  Finding the semitones is easy in a major scale if you break it into two groups of 4 notes.

Playing them on the piano is another matter and I would use a visual approach to the balck and white key pattern rather than teaching the theory.  However, I doubt a student after 3 months who seems to be struggling is ready for 8 note scales.  If you want to, play C adn B major.  It's not so easy to pass thumbs under, though.  Better to establish a good hand position.

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Just keep it simple and try to remember what graded you were at before you could make sense of all this stuff - slightly past intermediate for me!