For retiree

[nyonyo]

I noticed that there many retired people in this newsgroup.
I am glad that you ca fill your time with practicing piano. Why don't you guys join amateur competition. I think it is a fun way to give direction to your practice.

I am still far away from retirement age, but I have been preparing for this amateur competition so that when the time arrives, I am ready to compete.

Having this as a goal is really making me want to practice seriously.

There are many amateur competitions around. The two big ones are Van Cliburn and the one in Paris. Beware though, many of the competitiors went to very serious conservatories. Therefore, it is not easy to win, but it is fun....

Like last year winner, he is a doctor  but has a master degree in piano performance. He is very good!! Most of the winners had some kinds of advance music degree...or they were piano prodigies....

[rachfan]

Hi nyonyo,

Your idea of retirees entering amateur competitions is an interesting one.  I agree, that if you have to prepare repertoire to create an audition tape, etc., it helps to stretch one's abilities.  It's also a kind of lifelong learning as well.

I entered a competition when I was much younger.  It was held at the New England Conservatory of Music in Boston.  Although I did not win, I was selected as one of the three finalists, so was recognized and got to play in the finalists' recital at Boston University.  So I got a pretty good sense for the competition scene.

There are some practical hindrances for an older pianist though.  For example:

1) Many of us who had no difficulty memorizing years ago now find it difficult to impossible.  There are famous examples--Cortot, D'Albert and even Richter read from scores when playing late in life.  At competitions, playing from memory is a requirement.

2) As Schnabel used to say, while younger pianists have broad repertoires, older pianists have intensity of depth in their repertoire choices.  Why?  Because if you live to be 95, life is way too short!  So older pianists often tend to specialize in what they really enjoy playing.  Competitions, of course, require a traditional balance of Baroque, Viennese Classical, Romantic, and Modern works.  When I was young and had to play a 10 or 15 piece program in auditions every year for 10 years, I had no choice but to conform to that.  But now I can be myself, so I spend my time mostly on the Neo-Romantic literature now.  Unless a piece meets my own inner aesthetic test for beauty, I cannot develop an interest in it, invest time in it, or or become motivated to perform it. 

3) Another issue is the entrants.  Depending on the screening process for the competition--which may be thorough or not so thorough--you could conceivably have entrants slipping through who are conservatory trained with MMs or DMAs who are not, admittedly, "name" artists with careers for whatever reason, but are, nevertheless, extraordinary pianists.  Such a competitor would find an amateur competition easy pickings for the prize.  Reminds me of when I played tennis in my younger days.  I used to find at tournaments that it was common for Class B players to declare themselves Class C--an easy trophy for them.  Is it right?  No, but it happens.

4) For retirees, intensive practicing can be problematic if their spouse is not sympathetic.  My wife, for example, hates piano, the entire serious piano repertoire, the repetition of practice, plus she has sensitive ears.  So to keep the peace, I limit my practice time to when she is out doing errands.  For me it would be a huge handicap preparing for a competition.  Others may well have a similar issue.

5) Finally, as you attain senior status, your hands don't have quite the same suppleness and dexterity as in years gone by.  Osteoarthritis can be a culprit, or tenosynovitis.  Things like that can put one at a disadvantage in playing advanced repertoire in competition.  One of the best things about being retired is that you can do what you want to do when you wish to do it... or not do it.  There is no external pressure anymore.  Competitions though are high pressure with some fun too, of course.

BUT... having said all that, nyonyo, I do not want to take away from your idea, because it is still a very good one.  And there might well be retirees who could conveniently participate in a local or regional competition without having any of the impediments I mentioned above.  Probably a number of them do enter those events.

[kamike]

rachfan, I couldn't have said it better myself.  Good points.

I am not retired, but older (53), having returned to the piano several years ago.  I greatly admire those who can do competitions, but it's probably not for me because I don't think I would find it a good use of my time.  I want to play music that I love.   I take lessons and learn this stuff principly because I just love classical/romantic music, it improves my memory, and it's a great way to blow steam.

Although my wife is patient, she doesn't really appreciate classical music.  I have a busy engineering consulting business, and my free time is precious, so practice time is hard to come by.  And I'm one of those people who need quiet to practice - I don't do well with my 17-year old and her boyfriend on the sofa (uh, guess what's happening tonight....).  I think competitions would be a high-pressure scenario and would be a negative thing, in the end result, for me.

I have an ambition to find similarly-minded musicians who would be interested in learning and playing piano trios together.   I think playing in a group would be fun and I'd have a bit more confidence performing with others for an audience.

[rachfan]

Hi kamike,

I'm glad my response hit a responsive chord with you (no pun intended!).  That's great that you're studying piano again.  Similarly, I worked with two artist-teachers, one for 10 years during my youth and the second for another 7 years much later when I was in my 40s.  I got all of the fundamentals from the first one, and many new fine points from the second.  Nowadays I study completely on my own.  I don't feel the need for a teacher per se now, although it might be helpful if I could consult with a piano coach occasionally--just to hear me, offer critiques, and to discuss interpretation.  Even in the absence of that, I believe I do fairly well.  Without someone to guide me, I have to take full responsibility and accountability for my playing.  So I probably analyze scores in far more detail now than ever before.  I've posted tons of recordings in the Audition Room here, if you want to sample any.

You have a good thought there on forming an ensemble, which is a whole different and more complex dimension in performing music.  Although in my time I've accompanied singers, a chorus, and instrumentalists, I've never played in a trio or piano quartet.  I hope you can find some other good musicians to collaborate with you on that.

Good luck in your piano endeavors!

[point of grace]

Most of the winners had some kinds of advance music degree...or they were piano prodigies....

hate virtuosity

[rachfan]

Hi point of grace,

Yes, and that's what stacks the deck against real amateurs.

[wannabe]

It might be interesting for us to sort by state, county and get together to have a "recital".  Maybe it would provoke a more intense practice regime.

[point of grace]

Hi point of grace,

Yes, and that's what stacks the deck against real amateurs.

ok but what d´you mean with stacks the deck ? (sorry, i´m not english! but have the best intentions =))

[nyonyo]

1) Many of us who had no difficulty memorizing years ago now find it difficult to impossible.  There are famous examples--Cortot, D'Albert and even Richter read from scores when playing late in life.  At competitions, playing from memory is a requirement.

Racfan,

Since I am very into preparing for these amateur competitions, I have done a lot of research on this. In any amateur competitions, there is no requirement of pieces that we have to play, except the one in Paris. The one in Paris requires the competitors to perform ,at least, one Bach and one romantic in the semifinal stage. Otherwise, we can play whatever we want.

For Van Cliburn, it is harder than any other competition, because the pieces used in priliminary and semifinal cannot be used in final. Therefore,  a REAL amateur, like me, who did not go to a conservatory are usually have problem. We do not have enough repertory like those who used to dedicate their life to play piano. The total performance time is about 55 min (10 min + 15min + 30 min). For a real amateur, it is very hard to play 55min program.

Memorization is NOT required in any amateur competition! so anybody who cannot memorize any more can still participate.

I understand your situation...When your spouse does not like piano, it is such a torture to listen somebody practice piano. It is virtually impossible to perform well without consistent practice everyday...

My first competition will be the Paris one, because in this competition, they allow us to repeat any pieces used in the preliminary and semifinal stage...In addition, it is also much more fun competing in Paris than in Texas....

I personally do not agree anybody who has a piano degree to enter any amateur competiton.

[dan101]

In my teaching experience, retired students just want to relax and enjoy music inwardly. However, anyone out there that wants to be aggresive and competitive should live it up and go for it.

[nyonyo]

In my teaching experience, retired students just want to relax and enjoy music inwardly. However, anyone out there that wants to be aggresive and competitive should live it up and go for it.

I had contact with several retired people who participated in those amateur competitions.
All of them took lesson from concert pianists who used to compete in big competitions. Currently, I also take lesson from a concert pianist who used to compete in Van Cliburn in the early 90s. Before this, I took lesson from a non concert pianist who did not have big competition in the past, I found she does not have the skills to prepare students who are into competition.

[rachfan]

Hi point of grace,

Sorry, "stack the deck" is an American idiom that refers figuratively to a deck of cards, meaning to "fix" the deck beforehand in order to cheat the other players.  So regarding piano competitions, if an outstanding pianist, perhaps with degrees in piano performance and recitals behind him--yet, for whatever reason, not a paid professional--would really pose an unfair advantage to the true amateurs in the competition.  That entrant would be an amateur in name only.  As I had mentioned before, it would be much like a Class A tennis player enter a tournament in Class B just to pick up an easy trophy at the expense of the real Class B competitors.   I hope that clarifies it.   Probably someone from England, Canada or Australia would have asked me the same question, as English isn't always English even to English speakers, ha-ha!   

[rachfan]

Hi nyonyo,

Thanks for adding that additional information and insights.  It sounds as though by waiving the memorization requirement and forced repertoire choices that the organizers do show some "mercy" to the participants.  I have given a few solo recitals in the past, so I would have enough repertoire to meet the 55 minute requirement.  My fear though was the memorizing.  When I was in my youth, it was no problem.  But now memorizing is all but impossible.  It's funny because an older pianist can often still play pieces he/she learned as a teenager... but cannot play from memory a piece learned just a month ago.  My theory is that the brain is like computer RAM.  Once it's filled up, there is no way to cram more into it, and unlike RAM, you can't physically expand the brain.  Nor does the brain have a Disk Clean function.     Other than that, yes, getting the practice time would be my major issue.

When you enter the Paris competition, you'll have to come back to this thread to tell us all about it!  Good luck on that! 

[lostinidlewonder]

Everyone can memorize their music, age will not completely stop you from memorizing. All of my 50+ students memorize their music still, some who are excellent at sight reading from the  many years of practice fall into the habit of sighting their music rather than memorizing, however we can still memorize music if we sight read.

Too many sight readers simply mindlessly repeat what they read without thinking about what they are doing. That is they are completely slaves to the score. You must break this habit, whether it is covering parts of the score up, or cutting the score up and sticking it in different order.

You must also learn to follow the three phases of memory (which occur one after another and also simultaneously). Conscious memory (from sight reading skills, but also from pattern observation, making logical observations in relation to pattern which allow you to memorize a group of notes), muscular memory (understanding what a group of notes physically feels like with a singular movement of the hand, perhaps there are multiple movements in the hand but we can learn to call it one movement, like eating with a fork and knife requires many movements but we observe it as one whole movement when we master it instead of individual movements which need focused conscious attention) and finally Sound memory (where you can hear the music that needs to be produced in your minds eye and then reproduce that and use that to guide your muscular and conscious memory of your music, these three aspects of memory should be always running through our mind.

This triangle of memory must be active when learning your music. Those who rely too much on muscular memory have difficulty learning new music or improving upon their old music because their conscious observations and sight reading skills are not sharp enough to act as a catalyst to improve their memorization and performance of their music when using a score. Those who rely on sight reading too much never really master the physical movements and the constant conscious observation of your music takes away your ability to completely listen to the sound you are producing. However this is not always true, some grand master sight readers can sight music AND play it at full expression but for us lesser mortals this is not the case. Sight reading takes away from our ability to form the sound we produce in our ideal model.

It is always a struggle to memorize our music and to be able to finally play phrases without effort or focused attention to the notes on the keyboard. I really do think as you get older it becomes harder to learn these steps, but if you knew the process when you are younger, you will not magically lose it when you are older. I have changed the way of a mid 50 advanced sight reader student and made them see the connection between their strong conscious memory of music to the muscular and sound, this is rather easy imo. What I find most difficult is to improve someones conscious memory of music, this really requires a lot of practice. How did you manage to start reading words without sounding out individual letters? It takes practice practice and more practice. This is what really hurts older students because they haven't as much time as younger students to improve their conscious memory skills.