Sonata Themes

[ridr27]

Could someone please tell me how to identify the theme (espedially the ending there of).  Often I am not certain where the end is. 

Then there is the transition to the 2nd theme.  There must be certain things to look for just like there is in modulation, but I don't know what to look for.

Thank you to any one that can give me the formula.
 
 

[Bob]

I don't think there's supposed to be a formula... :p

I'm not an expert. 

Find the intro, find the first theme.  It would be a melody.  In one key.  There is probably a transition and the second theme.

I don't think the theme always has to be a melody.  I remember something about Hydan or Handel's "monothematic" sonata. 

Check the recap.  See what they bring back.  Is it the whole thing?  Exactly like the first time around?

The theme might overlap with things, like the second theme.  Dovetail.  The composer might just be making things difficult for you, the analyst, on purpose.  Hidding the ends of the theme with fancy finishes, or blening it in.  It might not even be exactly the same as the its return in the recap.


Those are a few thoughts off the top of my head.

[ridr27]

Bob.  thank you for writing.

Would I be correct in thinking:  It is not wrong for one person to think it ends one place and someone else conclude it ends somewhere else?
and basically there is no concrete answer.

Yes I knew the composers sometimes play with you. 


Would you say in the longer Sonatas:  automatically look for longer themes?

I know it is hard to describe all this on a forum.

I love trying to analyze.  It is fun.  but I am NO expert.

For modulation to another key, I look for accidentals.

For modulation to a minor key I look for a raised 7th.

For the key of the piece I look for ending chords and beginning chords.

The themes have me a bit more confused..

Thank you again...

Rider27

[ridr27]

Re:  Check the recap.  See what they bring back.  Is it the whole thing?  Exactly like the first time around?

Bob, by the above I think you mean:  It will help me figure out the theme by seeing what was brought back in the recap.  and compare them.  I will look at some of that today.
Thanx again.

[Bob]

Oh yes, people argue all the time.  They'll have reasons to back up what they say though.  I vaguely remember assisngments in theory class where several people thought the melody ended on one note and the prof would explain why it really ended on a different one.  It's somewhat subjective too. 

There are many, many variations and styles in music.  At some point, there will be pieces that don't quite fit right.  They might be considered going either way and there might be good arguments why each side is "correct."

There are books on form and analysis that sound they might be right for now.  I'm thinking of exact ones now, but...  just ask.  Or search libraries.  Form and Analysis.  Look for people like Kennan...  I'm not thinking of too many theory guys right now.  Other people on this site will know, or just search the site.

Form covers the overall shape and gets down to the phrase.  You want "Sonata-Allegro" form and there is tons out there written about that.  It shouldn't be too difficult to find.

I don't know how much theory you know.  Usually those books will have a complete analysis of a piece.  Very tedious detailed reading.  Words, music notation, and then you're ability to hear it in your mind (or a recording) and your ability to play it. 

I really liked having those things spelled out and explained by the theory profs.  It made things so much clearer, but they were a lot faster at the analysis than I was of course.  It took me a lot longer.  I suppose that's a good thing to practice though.

I vaguely remember something about a Bach piece where we were supposed to use the same note as the end of a "phrase" and the beginning of another "phrase."  One note, but it seemed to make the most sense to consider it as being one part of two different things.


And yes, you can check the recapitulation to see what comes back.  Except that doesn't mean the theme can't change before it gets to the recapitulation.  Variety and interest you know. 

[ridr27]

I don't know how much theory you know.  Usually those books will have a complete analysis of a piece.  Very tedious detailed reading.

thank you again.  I know just enough theory to get me in trouble.   

I have a book on analyzing the Inventions.  (one Bernhard recommended getting)
remember him?

It is quite hard to follow in part, but I manage.

Bob thank you again.  It has been helpful.

rider27

[gerryjay]

 hey rider!
 if you want some real help with this, why not we do together an analysis? choose a sonata you like, and let's do it online.
 i'm not a scholar but i have several years (and several sonatas) of experience, and if i can help you in anyway, it would be a pleasure.

 there are a basic misconcept that maybe is bothering you. some textbooks talk about "theme" but this is a very narrowed view of the sonata. you must think about regions, because a sonata is much more a debate of tonalities than melodic material. of course this have its impact, but it's not the fundamental one.

 so, you normally have something like this:
 - thematic region 1: in the tonic (one, two or several themes). it ends when a major unstable part begins;
 - transition (or bridge): the name of that part, where a modulation takes over.
 - thematic region 2: contrasting key (dominant, relative). again, you may have one to several themes (sometimes it is only the thematic region 1 transposed);
 - closing theme and coda: although not always present, it is very likely to find a very contrasting mood into TR2. that is called closing theme. also it's very common a coda to bring the whole exposition to a close.

 - development: here the composer contrast the ideas, in a (very) chromatic and modulatory section. notice that some composers use material from each or any part of the exposition and sometimes even includes new material.

 - recapitulation ("reexposition"): given two contrasting ideas and the field to develop their contrasts, rhetoric principles say you must bring this to a close. that's the function of the recapitulation. pay much attention because there are no rules here but end in the tonic (the fundamental contrast since 99% of the sonatas' expositions ends off tonic).
 it is normal to find a new development, reordering, even new material: it's all up to the composer's imagination.

 and about formulae...dude, this doesn't exist. write down the structure of a sonata and analyse the next one...and the next one...for sure you will find similarities but there is no two sonatas exactly alike, especially due to the fact that sonata is not a form but a composition technique (the best parallel is the fugue, and is no coincidence that this kind of composition ruled during the late polyphonic era, and the sonata "replaced" it from the classical period).

 well, it's up to you now!
 

[ridr27]

if you want some real help with this, why not we do together an analysis? choose a sonata you like, and let's do it online.
i'm not a scholar but i have several years (and several sonatas) of experience, and if i can help you in anyway, it would be a pleasure.

gerryjay:  I think this is a great idea.  Are there any more people out there want to do this?  Speak up!!

You and Bob are both way above me.

I am hoping there are other people out there interested in this too.

I am at the point I would start with Moonlight Sonata (maybe), although I think I understand that one, but with all you talked about, there would be definitely a lot to point out.

Then maybe a lengthy, Beethoven  that someone would pick.

So throwing this out there, and hoping other people will jump in. 

m1469 you out there...
Bob you interested?

There must be other novices like me.  Not sure how many people are reading the theory Board.......maybe we need advertise this on Students??  dunno

rider27

[gerryjay]

 hey rider!
 i wrote the other post, and now i figure out that you asked for the opus 27/2. what about that one? to me, either is cool (and i already did an analysis on both). so, the call is yours.
 don't stick to this below/above stuff because i think we are here to share. that's the idea, isn't it?
 and finally, this part of the forum is not that famous. probably because you don't find hardestish or betterish-like threads  (although i'm always into them... )
 i wait your decision!

[Bob]

I'm kind of busy with stuff at the moment.  I wouldn't mind seeing a general overview of the piece.  I'd like to dig in more, but it's a time thing now.  And conservatino of branpower.  Is the moonlight sonata one of the pf pdfs?  I think it was.

I'm not an expert at details of form.  I can follow along for sure, but I would need to study it out.  I'd want to review my form book first too.   That's getting more and more involved.

Just a time thing.  Maybe though when I get to it.  The profs I had could just do it at sight and knew the details too, but they probably knew the analysis of piece and had a lot more experience in that area than I do.

[mcgillcomposer]

Look for cadences - they are the most common and reliable formal markers.