adult student

[tsagari]

Hi everyone,
I've started piano lessons almost 3 years ago (March 2005) at the age of 39. Since then I have played pieces like Sonatinas by Clementi and Kuhlau, Bach like Anna Mad Note Book and Little Preludes and Fugitas, Greg Lyric Pieces, Shumman some pieces from the Album for the Young Sonatas by Haydn and and the Sonata Facile by Mozart not to mention Exercises by Cherny and Germer plus scales and appregios in four actaves all major and minor (melodic and harmonic) scales plus appregios 7th and all the scales in 3rds 6th and 10th.
I currently working on Cherny op.299, plus scales in contraly montion opening and closing, Mozart Sonata K283 and Bach's Invantion for two voices. Could someone tell me what grade Am I after all this and if is normal to study Mozart works for example for two and three months and still not be able to reach the target tempo or the desirable interpreation goals. Thaks for help

[gerryjay]

 hey tsagari! welcome!

 your repertoire makes perfect sense to me, and it´s a great achievement to three years of study. however, it´s interesting to explore this fact you can´t play the music as you wish after a couple of months. it can be due to several factors, from the level of the pieces versus your level of playing to the way you actually study.

 give some more detail, for example, when you start to play your last bach invention, how did you study it, and how does it sounds like today. on an overall look, i would say that if the problem is with the mozart sonata it´s probably because the work is a bit hard for you for now. there is such a gap between 545 and 283... 
 

[tsagari]

Hi gerryjay,
Thanks for your useful comments. I do not realy have a problem with Bach's invations after four weeks of study they are perfectly ready in tempo (not the very fast ones) and interpretation. The same with Cherny four to six weeks maximum.
My problem really is Mozart. I've started study that Sonata beginnig of November (1st movent only) and by now I am in a situation that is almost ready for a small concern that my teacher is planning. I think you are correct about the gap between K 545 and this one. Its also my first Mozart sonata after Haydn. I think my problem is that I have moved to more advanced repertoire and I am not used to the fact that these pieces need more work compered to Clementi and Greg.
You see as the only adult student (the others are advanced students at their early twenties) I don't know how things proceed at this level, not to mention that I am not getting comments from my teacher - she is not enthusiastic in character - and the only indication  I have that everything is all right and what I do is Ok, is that I move from one piece to the other. There is none around to discuss my problems my concerns ect
Thaks for reading my thoughts.

[gerry]

Why don't you take the initiative and ask your teacher what he/she thinks of your progress and make a list of questions you have about the pieces you're working on to ask. If the teacher doesn't provide satisfactory answers and guidance, consider getting another teacher who will.

[tsagari]

Hi Gerry,
Thanks for the suggestion, but their is  a small problem here this particular teacher is teaching my children and I am the Godmother of her one year old daughter (today January the 24th which means that I do not Know to what extent she is polite with me and to what extent she can be honest with me because the balances here are very delicate.
I think the problem here is, as she sometimes says that she is a very experience teacher - she teaches more than twenty years - but a tired one which means that she cannot share with me my ethusiasm, she acts professionally she does her job and she does that very well by correcting me, showing me ways to overcome diffulties and so on and I can not expect from her to be ethusiastic with my progress and express it the way I want.
You see I am not a child and she or anyother teacher can put a stiker on my book or write "very well done"  or give me candies as she does with my kids. I think this would be the problem with any teacher because they do not Know how to be rewarding with adults. When my teacher  was pregnant and I took lessons with some else the new onr said in our very first session  "I have not teach an adult before and I feel strange about this".

[gerryjay]

 well, well... i see your problem.
 
 when there is no feedback to our violent effort at the instrument it can easily be disapointing. of course that actually you don´t need any external approval if you don´t want to go pro, but in the formative years, when you need to construct your critical parameters about the instrument, the repertoire and its technique/interpretation...yes, comments are mostly welcome.

 my first suggestion would be: change your teacher. about that, a couple of notes.

 take care to not get caught in a trap. there are teachers who can only work with children/early teenagers focusing on a career or the like, that´s it, "great goals". they are neither interested nor able to help any other kind of musician (disregarding the ones who just can´t teach and rely themselves upon the natural talent of the students). in that case, you must find a teacher specialized in adult musical education. and be sure: there are professionals like that.

 however, i understand that a change of yours could create some personal problems. well, life ain´t easy but there´s a light in the end of the tunnel...  are you able to record yourself playing piano? if so, do it and post it in the audition room here at the forum. you will probably have some interesting comments and advices (and since nobody knows anybody, there are no external influences. at least, not much  ).

 you seem to have the will to play, to like music and the piano. it´s very common to people destruct that in a bad musical environment. don´t let that happen to you!

 hope that helps a bit, and good luck.

[gerry]

I see that your situation is indeed complicated, however I'm disturbed by the implication that you seem to feel "trapped" in this complex scenario (friend, godmother, children's teacher, etc.) I can only offer the following choices:

-  Set time aside with her to discuss your concerns. Friendship aside, I still see no reason why this can't be done as a basic "student/teacher" interaction--I assume you're paying her and it's your $$$s.

- If she remains unresponsive, and you're still unhappy with the arrangement, consider switching teachers. In the end, it may not be such a bad idea for you to study with someone other than a "friend" and your childrens' teacher.

 - If none of the above will work for you, then just be thankful that at your level you are fortunate enough to study with an "advanced" teacher, accept what you call her "professionalism" and apparent lack of enthusiasm as a given, try not to be so concerned about your "level" (I'm generally skeptical regarding the "level" designations) and just practice and monitor your own progress.

PS: gerryjay's proposition that you try posting a recording on this forum, while good in theory, may be hazardous to your health considering some of the criticisms I've read lately. Do so at your own risk and be prepared for some brutal honesty.

[gerry]

 when there is no feedback to our violent effort at the instrument it can easily be disapointing.

gerryjay:
Normally I overlook the language thing, but although your statement above may sometimes be true, there's a big difference between "violent" and "valiant". Wouldn't it be wonderful if all we had to worry about is "valiance" on our streets and in the middle east.

[tsagari]

Hi everyone,
Thanks for your very useful comments and advice. You really made my day and make me fill much better. It is really true that I should not let myself destruct from the bad - hostile I would have say - musical environment because I really love music and piano play.
Considering changing a teacher is something I had in mind. I might do so when I find in myself an answer to the question why I am doing this. Right now I play piano because I like music I like to make music and I feel extremely good with this. My teacher suggested last summer to make it more formal so she put me infrond of an  exam board and I was classified as an intermidiate player. Her argument was,  that if you are self taught is ok, if you take pravite lessons is much better, if you register in a music school much better, if you start giving exams and expose your self you are much better and so on.
I do not know if I want to get a piano degree (this how we call it in Greece something like US grade 8 I assume) another min five years of fomal studies. At this level she says that you can work on your own and do whatever you want to do with music.
Maybe this is what I want to do in principal reach at a level of competency where I can play without the need of some instactor and fill confident that I am not abusing music.
Thanks and a good day to all of you

[gerryjay]

gerryjay:
Normally I overlook the language thing, but although your statement above may sometimes be true, there's a big difference between "violent" and "valiant". Wouldn't it be wonderful if all we had to worry about is "valiance" on our streets and in the middle east.

hey gerry!
thanks mate, but i mean what i wrote. although the general meaning would not change so much with your idea, i´ll stick to my hyperbole anyway. 

btw, if at any moment i do actually insult your written Language, please feel free to correct. as english is not my native language, i´ll be thankful for that! and i hope i´ve been improving. 

[gerryjay]

Thanks and a good day to all of you

you´re welcome!

PS: gerryjay's proposition that you try posting a recording on this forum, while good in theory, may be hazardous to your health considering some of the criticisms I've read lately. Do so at your own risk and be prepared for some brutal honesty.

gerry is right, excuse me for not warning you, but i really like to get some critical view of my work, even if it´s harsh. anyway, it´s true that some people don´t like this.

[jepoy]

I had a similar problem. After many years since my last formal piano lessons, I decided to study with my best friend who's a conservatory grad and an excellent classical musican herself.

I noticed that her teaching approach was suited more for young students and not for adult learners such as myself. Plus, she was hesitant to assign classical pieces to me, probably because she thought I couldn't handle them. And because of our friendship, she wasn't very strict with my playing.

So, I begged off studying with her, told her I had too much work on my hands. Then, I found another teacher in a different place who was more experienced with adult learners. In the three years I've been with him, I've made so much progress, perhaps even more if only we had more regular lessons (only once a month now due to the distance). Unfortunately, I couldn't openly admit to my best friend about this because she's very sensitive.

In one party, our friends asked us to play something at the piano. My best friend played first (I think Liszt's Un Suspiro) and of course, she wowed everyone. It was my turn and I played some rare modern piece my teacher taught me (technically not that difficult but sounds difficult) and got some applause as well. My bestfriend had this strange look on her face and probably figured out that I was taking lessons from someone else. Lately, she asked me if I could give her lessons (?!?)... I think she was patronizing me but it was very odd.

Anyways, tsagari, I hope you could find the right teacher for you...

[gerry]

It's always a tragedy when ego rears its ugly head in these circumstances. As I've said in previous posts, I still think honesty and communication are best in these instances. What's so terribly wrong about saying to a "best friend" something to the effect of, "look, I sense that your talent is best used instructing and inspiring younger students, and rather than jeopardize our friendship that I value above all, I'd like to study with someone else for a while and see what happens...." or something similar. As you are discovering, 'Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.'

[jepoy]

'Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.'

This one goes to my journal  Thanks for the reminder on honesty, gerry. I'll look you up when I need help on what to say to my best friend. Cheers!

[gerry]

Aww, don't thank me, thank Sir Walter Scott. Good luck.

[gerryjay]

It's always a tragedy when ego rears its ugly head in these circumstances. As I've said in previous posts, I still think honesty and communication are best in these instances. What's so terribly wrong about saying to a "best friend" something to the effect of, "look, I sense that your talent is best used instructing and inspiring younger students, and rather than jeopardize our friendship that I value above all, I'd like to study with someone else for a while and see what happens...." or something similar. As you are discovering, 'Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.'

yeap...why people seems to prefer something polite (yet a lie) than the truth? i think there is a confusion between what we are and what we do (professionally) that don´t help.

i do agree completely with you, gerry, about honesty and communication. why not? why people can´t be more humble and receptive, just for a change?

about the teacher-pupil relationship, what´s the problem about the latter saying: "thanks for everything, i will carry you deep in my heart, but now i must go on"? yes, yes...ego...

[tsagari]

Hi to everybody
What I decided to do with my situation here is not to consider changing the teacher at this point but be honest with her and say what I feel and what I want from her and see where we go from that point.

[loops]

Aww, don't thank me, thank Sir Walter Scott. Good luck.

Shakespeare, actually

[loops]

I had a similar problem. After many years since my last formal piano lessons, I decided to study with my best friend who's a conservatory grad and an excellent classical musican herself.


In one party, our friends asked us to play something at the piano. My best friend played first (I think Liszt's Un Suspiro) and of course, she wowed everyone. It was my turn and I played some rare modern piece my teacher taught me (technically not that difficult but sounds difficult) and got some applause as well. My bestfriend had this strange look on her face and probably figured out that I was taking lessons from someone else. Lately, she asked me if I could give her lessons (?!?)... I think she was patronizing me but it was very odd.

Anyways, tsagari, I hope you could find the right teacher for you...

she was hopefully realising that she had totally underestimated you... that she had patronised you by not teaching you the harder classical music and taking you seriously

so say yes, I can give you a lesson in teaching adults

[gerry]

Shakespeare, actually

loops:

I stand by my original attribution

Sir Walter Scott's epic poem Marmion, Canto VI, XVII

Gerry

[danny elfboy]

It's always a tragedy when ego rears its ugly head in these circumstances. As I've said in previous posts, I still think honesty and communication are best in these instances. What's so terribly wrong about saying to a "best friend" something to the effect of, "look, I sense that your talent is best used instructing and inspiring younger students, and rather than jeopardize our friendship that I value above all, I'd like to study with someone else for a while and see what happens...." or something similar. As you are discovering, 'Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.'

This is a wonderful advice.
I've always said that openess (unlike tricks, schemes and hypocrisy) would solve 80% of the problems of this society. I'm always shocked when I see people asking others how to convince his/her girlfriend/boyfriend about something without he/she knowing the real reason and all these sorts of role and power games when expecially these kinds of relationships should be based on trust and openess and communication.

[hildegarde]

To throw in my two cents--

I was once on the opposite side of this problem.  A friend bought a used flute and asked me teach her how to play a few simple tunes.  I gladly gave her an informal lesson.  She seemed to take to it, so I offered to set her up either with myself or another teacher at my studio.  At this time, she declined and said that she did not wish to take formal lessons.

About six months later, I found out that she was taking lessons from another teacher in our area.

Was my ego bruised?  Yes.  But more than that, our friendship was hurt by the fact that she was dishonest with me.  I'd far rather someone be open and direct in a student/teacher relationship than play games or lie to "pardon" another's feelings.

So, to the OP: if your teacher is not working, be upfront about it.  Better to hurt someone's feelings briefly than to permanently damage a relationship by being dishonest.

[tsagari]

Hi, hildegarde,
I was thinking your situation and just a piece of advice. The fact that your friend has been dishonest is not a good thing. However, we humans are rather weak and she probably did not want to be involved with you in student/teacher relationship because this could have also been harfull for your friendship. I think be the honest part and talk to her about your feelings. I can see from my situation that frendship and having the same person as your teacher is not a good thing at all. I always find my self  playing diffirent roles one day I am the student the other day I am the friend - not to mention the godmother - which is not good believe me.

[hildegarde]

Tsagari--

You are right.  I've definitely decided that mixing a teacher/student role with a friend role is bad news.  As for my personal situation, I did "confront" my friend (this was some time ago now) at the time, and we have since patched things up.  It was, however, very difficult--trust is a fragile thing, and it's not easy to gain back once it's been lost.

That being said, I wish the best for you in your situation.  It's extremely difficult, I know, and you seem to be handling it gracefully.