Is human performance of Xenakis (etc.) against the premise of the music?

[rallestar]

First of all, this is not intended to be or become a "I hate/love modern music, and you're an ass if you feel otherwise." But I'm no expert when it comes to this music myself, and realise that there's a lot on this board. The following thought occurred to me today while checking out some Xenakis on youtube:

So, Xenakis' philosophy for writing music was that since emotional response is completely subjective, music must strive to be as objectively perfect/mathematically perfect as possible, since this is the only real way to measure the quality of the music. (Probably someone could express that more accurately than I did here, but is it not basically correct?)

In that case, what is the whole point with having humans perform his music? Is it not just destroying the objective perfection that his work must be? Why write for instruments, when instruments put limits on the mathematic model, for example, a pianist or violinist or whatever can only play a certain amount of notes. And any human performance will no matter how perfect a performance have a small amount of rubato.

To cut it short: Humans are imperfect, and therefore incapable of properly performing music composed with the philosophy Xenakis employed. Discuss.

[ahinton]

First of all, this is not intended to be or become a "I hate/love modern music, and you're an ass if you feel otherwise." But I'm no expert when it comes to this music myself, and realise that there's a lot on this board. The following thought occurred to me today while checking out some Xenakis on youtube:

So, Xenakis' philosophy for writing music was that since emotional response is completely subjective, music must strive to be as objectively perfect/mathematically perfect as possible, since this is the only real way to measure the quality of the music. (Probably someone could express that more accurately than I did here, but is it not basically correct?)

In that case, what is the whole point with having humans perform his music? Is it not just destroying the objective perfection that his work must be? Why write for instruments, when instruments put limits on the mathematic model, for example, a pianist or violinist or whatever can only play a certain amount of notes. And any human performance will no matter how perfect a performance have a small amount of rubato.

To cut it short: Humans are imperfect, and therefore incapable of properly performing music composed with the philosophy Xenakis employed. Discuss.

I am no Xenakis scholar, but I think nevertheless that I know enough about him to suggest that he would have disagreed with your premise here...

Best,

Alistair

[general disarray]

I am no Xenakis scholar, but I think nevertheless that I know enough about him to suggest that he would have disagreed with your premise here...

Best,

Alistair

Would you be kind enough, for the sake of debate, to provide documentation for your assertion that "he [Xenakis] would have disagreed with your premise here"?

Otherwise, this valuable thread goes nowhere.

Thank you.

[ahinton]

Would you be kind enough, for the sake of debate, to provide documentation for your assertion that "he [Xenakis] would have disagreed with your premise here"?

Not at present (for which fact I duly apologise), although I did include the caveats "I think" and a reference to my not being a Xenakis scholar, but I do recall interviews with the composer in which he seemed keen on live performance of his works, even on occasion warts and all if need be and I know several performers who have worked with hinm on occasion that would testify to this. I'm sure there are people on here with more knowledge of this than I have, so let's hope that that someone pitches in as you rightly wish.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Whilst this
https://www.furious.com/perfect/xenakis.html
doesn't give much away about the particular topic, it has some useful pointers and certainly alerts the reader to other interesting documentary material that will throw some light on it. There are also these
https://www.rogerreynolds.com/xenakis1.html
https://www.rogerreynolds.com/xenakis2.html
which reproduce an interview 15 years ago when the composer was around 70; again, they hardly cover the present topic at all yet they do provide some insights that might help indirectly.

The following bibliography might also be a good starting point for those really interested in finding out details:

Amagali, Rosemary Tristano. 1975. "Texture as an Organizational Factor in Selected Works of Iannis Xenakis". M.M. Thesis, Indiana University.
Baltensperger, André. 1995. Iannis Xenakis und die Stochastische Musik - Komposition im Spannungsfeld von Architektur und Mathematik. Zürich. Paul Haupt.
Bardot, Jean-Marc. 1999. "Cendrées de Xenakis ou l'émergence de la vocalité dans la pensée xenakienne." Undergraduate thesis (equivalent). Saint-Etienne: Université Jean Monnet.
Biasi, Salvatore di. 1994. Musica e matematica negli anni 50-60: Iannis Xenakis. Bologne. Università degli Studi di Bologna.
Harley, James. 2004. Xenakis: his life in music. London: Taylor & Francis Books. ISBN 0-415-97145-4
Mâche, François-Bernard. 2002. Portrait(s) de Iannis Xenakis Seuil. ISBN 2-7177-2178-9
Matossian, Nouritza. 1990. Xenakis. London: Kahn and Averill. ISBN 1-871082-17-X
Varga, Bálint András. 1996. Conversations with Iannis Xenakis. London: Faber and Faber. ISBN 0-571-17959-2
Xenakis, Iannis. 2001. Formalized Music: Thought and Mathematics in Composition (Harmonologia Series No.6). Hillsdale, NY: Pendragon Press. ISBN 1-57647-079-2

A wealth of information can be glened from and through
https://www.iannis-xenakis.org/english/inter.htm
although, sadly, the links to online-readable interviews appear to have gone.

Sorry not to be of more help right now.

Best,

Alistair