Dependence on teacher, how should it be?

[kghayesh]

My teacher is almost dominating me and everything musical aspect of me. Her continuous criticism of me made me almost feel so uncomfortable and lose most confidence in myself. She even forced me to call off a recital that I was supposed to perform because she told me she thinks I am not ready. She's a great teacher after all, but i really feel she's dominating me and that I am totally dependent on her in my decisions !

So what should be the level of dependnce of the student to his/her teacher? If the student wants to participate in a competition for example, who gets to say the final word... student or teacher? Who should decide on the repertoire learnt and perfromed in the lessons?

I am totally intrigued by this issue, so please help !

[faulty_damper]

Purpose of teacher: To get rid of every student.
Purpose of student: To get rid of every teacher.

If a teacher cannot get rid of his student, the teacher is not doing his job.
If a student cannot get rid of his teacher, the student is not doing his job.

[gerry]

Seems to me a lot has to do with how much respect you have for your teacher. The contract entered into implies that the student would defer to the teacher - not the other way around. Without knowing you, your age, or anything else about your situation, it's hard to really tell where the fault lies. This is the second time I've chimed in on this forum regarding student/teacher problems and my basic advice is COMMUNICATE. Set aside some time to speak to her about your perceptions. If she is indeed a "great teacher" she should be able to discuss them with you.

Try speaking with some of her other students and see how they view their relationship. If the consensus is that it is just your problem with her then I suggest you rethink your situation and try to have more confidence in her guidance and try to respect it. If you decide you can't work with her, you're always free to dissolve the relationship, BUT know that you may be setting a dangerous pattern of escaping from teachers that may not serve you well in future.

PS: As for her not allowing you to perform before being fully prepared, we have all witnessed on YouTube far too many examples of student recitals where we were left scratching our heads in wonder at how any teacher could possibly allow his/her student to subject an audience to such a demonstration. It was probably for you own good, not to mention the good of your friends and family.

[gerryjay]

Purpose of teacher: To get rid of every student.
Purpose of student: To get rid of every teacher.

If a teacher cannot get rid of his student, the teacher is not doing his job.
If a student cannot get rid of his teacher, the student is not doing his job.

hey damper!
thatīs an interesting point. thanks for giving me something to think about in the weekend! 

[amelialw]

My teacher is almost dominating me and everything musical aspect of me. Her continuous criticism of me made me almost feel so uncomfortable and lose most confidence in myself. She even forced me to call off a recital that I was supposed to perform because she told me she thinks I am not ready. She's a great teacher after all, but i really feel she's dominating me and that I am totally dependent on her in my decisions !

So what should be the level of dependnce of the student to his/her teacher? If the student wants to participate in a competition for example, who gets to say the final word... student or teacher? Who should decide on the repertoire learnt and perfromed in the lessons?

I am totally intrigued by this issue, so please help !

I believe that the teacher should give independence based on the level each individual is at. for beginners, the obvious would be to follow all given instructions and for the teacher to plan what the student should learn. Once the student reaches the intermediate level, he/she is expected to know the basics which should not be re-taught, the student would have some amount of independence in choosing repertoire, learning pieces etc. At the advanced level, the student usually has quite alot of freedom to voice his/her opinions as to what they want to learn, what they want to achieve, it is than the teachers role to help the student carry it out. There is always the common piece or 2 that a student must learn and the guidelines to follow so in that aspect they will not always have their personal choice. The student certainly must do their part by committing to a certain amount of practise daily.

As for competitions and recitals, the teacher has the final say.

I myself am a advanced student. I do get my freedom to voice my opinions, my thoughts etc. as to what I want to accomplish. My teacher than lays out the options and both of us pick the best. For pieces, right now I would say that I have picked half of my own and my teacher the other half. There are always some pieces that I would prefer her to choose for me for example baroque and late 20th C as I do not really always know what I would prefer to play. I usually pick my own sonatas, 18th C pieces, early 20th C pieces and concert etudes, concertos etc. However my teacher always insists that I finish what she has picked me 1st. For example: for ARCT so far I have learnt/am learning: 1 Baroque, 3 classical sonatas, 2 18th C pieces, 20 early 20th pieces, 1 late 20th C piece and many of chopin's etudes. My teacher set the ground by picking one of each, she then enforced that I learnt what she picked at 1st. After the 1st round she'll usually let me pick my own pieces and bring what I want to learn to her but if a piece is to hard she will tell me and say that I could learn it later.

[gerryjay]

 hey amelia!

 in general, i agree with you but the choice of repertory: i think thatīs a personal decision and the role of the teacher must be of orientation, not interference. and to actual advanced students, the teacher must not interfere at all: itīs your career, your risk, your life and your call. of course that the advice (or orientation) of someone who knows more than you is highly welcome. 

 btw, itīs interesting that you post on this topic, and to read what you think about this matter, because you seem very dependent on your teacher. in almost every post of yours there is something like "my teacher said" or "my teacher is", and to be honest it shows me some insecurity about what youīre saying.  perhaps itīs just an intense admiration for this person who give to you so much, but perhaps itīs not.

 actually, you donīt need this because the fact that your teacher think something means nothing to anyone but you. (please, notice that i donīt want to tell she is not a wonderful teacher or the like.  ) but you seem very commited to what youīre doing and if youīre what you say, itīs about time to stand for yourself imho.

 so, i donīt propose either a discussion about your level of independence or self-confidence. you donīt have to prove me nothing, but i couldnīt let that pass without say to you what i think. donīt get me wrong, and if my perception is a mistake, just desconsider what i did write above.  best!

[amelialw]

hey amelia!

 in general, i agree with you but the choice of repertory: i think thatīs a personal decision and the role of the teacher must be of orientation, not interference. and to actual advanced students, the teacher must not interfere at all: itīs your career, your risk, your life and your call. of course that the advice (or orientation) of someone who knows more than you is highly welcome. 

 btw, itīs interesting that you post on this topic, and to read what you think about this matter, because you seem very dependent on your teacher. in almost every post of yours there is something like "my teacher said" or "my teacher is", and to be honest it shows me some insecurity about what youīre saying.  perhaps itīs just an intense admiration for this person who give to you so much, but perhaps itīs not.

 actually, you donīt need this because the fact that your teacher think something means nothing to anyone but you. (please, notice that i donīt want to tell she is not a wonderful teacher or the like.  ) but you seem very commited to what youīre doing and if youīre what you say, itīs about time to stand for yourself imho.

 so, i donīt propose either a discussion about your level of independence or self-confidence. you donīt have to prove me nothing, but i couldnīt let that pass without say to you what i think. donīt get me wrong, and if my perception is a mistake, just desconsider what i did write above.  best!

hey gerry

well, the reason why I look to my teacher often is because I have alot of missing holes, well it has all been filled in by now, but that was the way it was when I 1st moved to canada 4 years ago. Right now, I do pick all of my own repertoire and learn whatever I want to learn and my teacher allows me to do so, in fact she's very happy that i'm doing that. She has been very supportive of me. Occasionally I do pick something quite a lot harder than my usual rep and she will smile at me and say yes as long as I stick to it and finish it off. I myself enjoy doing that because I can see a huge improvement.

My previous teacher never taught be much but picked everything for me as a result, I was ver unhappy and learnt hardly anything, in fact I think you would find it hard to believe if I told you that when I started RCM gr 10 I only knew how to play some Bach(barely any), Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin and a few others that were not at all important and did not know how to pick my own repertoire.

Now however I know so much more and often learn as much as possible. quite many people who know me call me crazy because i'm always learning so much at once.

yes I have an intense admiration for my teacher and if she says that I have to learn something I will get it done but at the same time find a piece that I like and can learn that something from.

I do stand up for myself, very often I do say what I feel and it helps alot.

The other day, for the very 1st time probably in these 4 years, my teacher said that she was very proud of what I have achieved, for both my practical and theory components as although i've struggled alot I have somehow managed to self-study and pass many of the later exams on my own and as for the practical part, it has just been such a huge sense of achievement for me. She said that I have matured so much in the past year that she trusts that she can let me go at last and not have to worry anymore about me. The last thing left for me to master is my octaves, I have very petite hands and that is the huge wall that I am determined to break down before I leave.

thanks!
Amelia

[tsagari]

Hi everyone
I think some one should write a book about this student/teacher relationship which is very compelex from any point of view I suppose. If the goal is to make good music I think much of this depends on that relationship and how healthy and inspiring can be. Do you agree?

[kghayesh]

Hi everyone
I think some one should write a book about this student/teacher relationship which is very compelex from any point of view I suppose. If the goal is to make good music I think much of this depends on that relationship and how healthy and inspiring can be. Do you agree?

It depends on both the teacher and the student themselves, on whether the teacher is keen on getting the most of her student and making him reach the skies, and on whether the student really wants to and works hard to reach that.

[gerryjay]

hey amelia!
iīm glad to read your post.

well, the reason why I look to my teacher often is because I have alot of missing holes, well it has all been filled in by now, but that was the way it was when I 1st moved to canada 4 years ago. Right now, I do pick all of my own repertoire and learn whatever I want to learn and my teacher allows me to do so, in fact she's very happy that i'm doing that. She has been very supportive of me. Occasionally I do pick something quite a lot harder than my usual rep and she will smile at me and say yes as long as I stick to it and finish it off. I myself enjoy doing that because I can see a huge improvement.

thatīs the description of a advanced student-teacher "healthy" relationship, imo. in the early years, since the pupil doesnīt even know the repertory, itīs the role of the teacher to choose the pieces to be played, and to take whole care of the studentsī extra-practice piano life. but in your case, thatīs the way things must be.

My previous teacher never taught be much but picked everything for me as a result, I was ver unhappy and learnt hardly anything, in fact I think you would find it hard to believe if I told you that when I started RCM gr 10 I only knew how to play some Bach(barely any), Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin and a few others that were not at all important and did not know how to pick my own repertoire.
Now however I know so much more and often learn as much as possible. quite many people who know me call me crazy because i'm always learning so much at once.

how amazing a change of guidance can be, donīt you agree? itīs cool to read that, because you consider that you barely learn anything and now (after the change) you get sometimes criticized for learning too much?  thatīs cool.

yes I have an intense admiration for my teacher and if she says that I have to learn something I will get it done but at the same time find a piece that I like and can learn that something from.
I do stand up for myself, very often I do say what I feel and it helps alot.

well, youīre blessed then. enjoy that opportunity as much as you can (what i know youīre doing, given your words). 

She said that I have matured so much in the past year that she trusts that she can let me go at last and not have to worry anymore about me. The last thing left for me to master is my octaves, I have very petite hands and that is the huge wall that I am determined to break down before I leave.

the bitter part... anyway, she can know better than you when itīs time to move on. furthermore, what faultydamper wrote above is probably very true.
and about the octaves, what a difficult task. although i am not the same level as you, i have very big hands (11th span), and i must say that i find it hard as well. perhaps another time we could discuss approaches to solve that (remember the other thread?)  .

youīre welcome! best regards.

[amelialw]

Purpose of teacher: To get rid of every student.
Purpose of student: To get rid of every teacher.

If a teacher cannot get rid of his student, the teacher is not doing his job.
If a student cannot get rid of his teacher, the student is not doing his job.

Gerry: well that is certainly not my teacher's purpose, nor mine. I could learn alot more from my teacher but she's picking the best learning environment for me so I should move.

Yes, I do remember the other thread, do you want me to start it? I would gladly do so.

[gerry]

I would appreciate it if you would adress gerryjay as gerryjay and me as gerry. I begin to understand how Thalberg and Thalbergmad feel.

[gerryjay]

I would appreciate it if you would adress gerryjay as gerryjay and me as gerry. I begin to understand how Thalberg and Thalbergmad feel.

i second that request.  btw, feel free to call me jay. 

[gerryjay]

hey amelia!

Gerry: well that is certainly not my teacher's purpose, nor mine. I could learn alot more from my teacher but she's picking the best learning environment for me so I should move.

for sure you can, but as you wrote, she have better plans for you. this is part of the game, i think.

Yes, I do remember the other thread, do you want me to start it? I would gladly do so.

iīll be quite happy to discuss parallel intervals issues, because now i fight the thirds, and soon i will need very strong octave technique. so, yes, letīs resume that thread!

[amelialw]

i second that request.  btw, feel free to call me jay. 

alright Gerry and gerryjay it is 

gerryjay, i'll start that topic as soon as i'm free

[lostinidlewonder]

I am terribly against teachers telling students they are not ready to perform. Performance experience is just invaluable and it has nothing to do with how well you play. To tell you the truth even if you polish up your playing as high as you can, it probably does not come near to the "best" performance. So you are always playing "bad" if you compare yourself to the ideal model of playing.

A teacher shouldn't discourage a student to perform unless the event is one where people pay money to come be entertained by performers. Then you have a responsibility to present your highest quality possible. But if it is for competition or for a school recital etc, it really simply does not matter. You don't have to worry if your expression is not top notch, so long you don't make a lot of note errors and obvious mistakes the great majority of the audience will be pleased.

Many teachers believe their reputation is at risk when a student performs. This is a fantasy which many believe in, a big pity. Unless your student plays for the head of a musical department who is intent on judging a teachers worth through their students AND who has so much influence in the musical circle you are working in that they can further your career or ruin it by their opinion on your student, your reputation is hardly ever at risk. Who gives a stuff if another teacher thinks your student is substandard? How does that effect you? It simply doesn't they are a small fish in the game, their negative opinion is worthless.

[quantum]

Purpose of teacher: To get rid of every student.
Purpose of student: To get rid of every teacher.

If a teacher cannot get rid of his student, the teacher is not doing his job.
If a student cannot get rid of his teacher, the student is not doing his job.

This is quite true.


Another way of putting it:

The aim for a teacher is to teach the student to become his/her own teacher. 

You go to music lessons not to learn how to play your instrument, but to learn how to teach yourself to play your own instrument. 

[m1469]

These topics are difficult for me to post about and I feel like I am trudging through mud to get concepts out somewhat clearly, yet I can't seem to completely refrain from commenting.  So, here we go  .

Dependence on teacher, how should it be ?

Well, even though faulty_damper's basic "outline" is pretty much fundamentally correct, there are many, many facets involved within the process of learning and teaching, and there is a lot that I think goes uncommunicated on this subject (and a lot that is not actually understood).

Teaching privately is similar to parenting, in my opinion.  We could say :

Purpose of Parent : To get rid of every child.
Purpose of child : To get rid of every parent.

If a parent cannot get rid of his child, the parent is not doing his job.
If a child cannot get rid of his parent, the child is not doing his job.

Fine. But what does that all really mean ?  I will start by saying that I don't think that the actual "purpose" of parenting is simply to get "rid" of a child, but that getting "rid" of a child is a result of a parental purpose.  And, what do we mean by getting "rid" of a child anyway ?  Well, in the case of parenting, to "get rid" of a child means that eventually the individual has learned how to take care of oneself. 

There are basic skills in being able to take care of oneself; like being able to keep a job and have an income, how to go shopping and buy clothes and other needs, how to keep a house, how to relate with other people, how to drive or find a way of transportation, how to cook and do laundary and clean, how to think things through and make decisions (the list goes on and on).  Basically, a parent's purpose is to raise/teach a human being how to function in life/society as a human being.  I don't think I need to say too much to point out that there are HUGE variances in the quality of parenting within the world, and as a result, there are HUGE variances in how people function in life and in society as human beings.

As it goes with music, the purpose of a teacher is not just to "get rid" of every student.  Specifically, the purpose of a teacher is to "raise" the human being to become functional as a musician/instrumentalist in life/society.  Similarly to a human being needing to learn specific skills in order to be a functional human being, a musician/instrumentalist must also learn specific skills in order to be a functional musician/instrumentalist.  And, just as there are huge variances in the quality of parenting within the world, there are also huge variances in the quality of teaching within the world, and therefore huge variances in the quality of functionality in musicians.

With parenting, the backbone to raising a functional child (or not) lay within the values that parents hold as individuals, and it is very similar with teaching something like piano/music.  And, even more important than that which is valued is whether or not the value has actually been understood by the child/student and passed along in a meaningful way.

As human beings, we learn skills from our parents that we learn to rely on for the rest of our lives.  Maybe the role of our parents changes and our dependence on them for providing certain things for us dissolves, but our dependence on the skills that they taught us becomes more and more pertinent throughout the rest of our lives.  In many cases, we may never grow out of our dependence on certain skills and values, and that is actually a blessing or a curse depending on what we have or have not learned.  Again, it is very similar with teaching and learning about music.

Dependence on teachers for particular matters should last only as long as it is needed in order for the student to learn the skills that will be relied on for the rest of a musician's existence as a musician.  A student will never grow out of depending on the musically functional skills s/he has learned from a teacher, and these skills will become paramount to the student once they are effectively learned.  This means that the role of a teacher will change over time. 

With parenting, their initial roles include feeding and bathing and changing the child because the child does not yet know how to do these things for herself.  As the child grows and matures, the parent's role along these lines changes with the child's growth.  The child learns how to do these things on their own and so a parent's role focuses on "bigger" challenges that will come with the child's growth.  It is similar with teaching.  That which the student is incapable of providing for oneself, the teacher must take on the role of providing, until the student has grown to such a point where the role of the teacher can change in focus.

I do expect that my students will "move out" at some point (at which point my "role" will change), but I certainly aim for them to be fully functional as musicians when they do.  There are other factors involved but perhaps I will come back at another point.

[gerry]

Purpose of teacher: To get rid of every student.
Purpose of student: To get rid of every teacher.

If a teacher cannot get rid of his student, the teacher is not doing his job.
If a student cannot get rid of his teacher, the student is not doing his job.

I agree with the above; however, the art is in knowing the right time to effect this separation. It's the age-old balance between youthful arrogance and mature wisdom. I like to think most of the very successful artists today probably had at least one or more autocratic teachers in their youth, but they had the early wisdom to respect and defer to them. There is no substitute in my mind for this mentor/student type of relationship.