Bach English suites

[pianogeek_cz]

So. Picking new repertoire. Going 100% with Bach's e minor Toccata, but I want a suite to go with it (with a slight delay, possibly). I was thinking about the 6th English suite. Some pointers (difficulty-wise in comparison with the Toccata, good choice/bad choice, what catches are there to look out for, etc.), anyone?

Perhaps one of the French suites first seems like a good idea, too... Suggestions?

[gerryjay]

hey geek!
your idea is very cool. i really love the english suites, and the sixth is awesome. sorry i canīt tell you about difficulty issues (because it is a bit beyond my present scope  ) but i think yours is a great choice.
i donīt know if everywhere, but it seems to me that the 2nd and 3rd english suites are the most played. although i think that both are very interesting, fresher choices are always welcome.
about a french suite, there are people who think that they are lesser works (since they are generally easier than the english ones), but thatīs not true in my opinion. iīm very fond of the third (which i did play), but if your choice needs to follow the toccata in difficulty also, i donīt think itīs the best idea.
good choice for you!

[hwangs]

I studied the English Suites in depth and learned and performed the 2nd one. If this is your first one, I would stay away from the 6th, b/c it is really challenging (and i'm not talking just technically). Maybe the 3rd one is a good suite to start with. The difficulty with performing full suites is the fact that people (particularly non-musicians) will get bored very easily... esp with Bach; Also, you want the movements to first fit in with the whole suite, yet maintain their individual dance identities. If you want, I have a live recording of the 2nd ES in the audition room that I posted a few weeks ago. It's not the best, but it's something.

I'm not too familiary with the e minor toccata, but if you're doing all Bach program, maybe you wanna try something like -- e-minor toccata plus e-minor suite (like the 5th one, which is also extremely intense). OR you can make a total contrast, if you dont want to do the e minor toccata and add the first or fourth english suite (first is elegant, fourth is really excellent - my favorite suite). But you probably dont want to do this.

Hmmm... as for the French Suites I've learned the first and fifth, but wouldn't recommend those. 4th and 6th French Suites are really excellent, but probably wont go well with a minor toccata imo.

Hope that helps...

[gerryjay]

hey hwangs!

may i bother you?

i must choose an english suite to play late this year (or early '09), and my present choice is the third. reading what you wrote, i felt confident about that, since it will be my first english suite (i did play the third french). my question to you would be: what do you think are the best way to manage the study of the whole monster?

any comment will be highly welcome; thanks in advance!

[kitty on the keys]

Gerryjay, I have always enjoyed the e-minor Toccata. I have learned the b minor and g major french Suites. The challange for any of the Suite---French or English is the rhytmic structure---of the dances. They are challanging to keep interesting when performing for the public----so keep the pulse of the piece moving along. I heard Richard Goode perform the 6th English Suite----WOW- it was great. Best of luck with what ever you choose. Also listen to various CD's.

Kitty on the keys

[gerryjay]

hey kitty!

thanks for your words. you made me remember a teacher who said: the difficulty of playing bachīs suites/partitas is to keep the audience awake!  anyway, when someone can do that (and i can imagine goodeīs performance) is amazing.



btw, geek, i donīt want to steal your thread buddy...

[hwangs]

Haha, hopefully geek wont mind...

but, yeah-- Gerry, wow there's a thousand of things to keep in mind when you're learning the English Suite,... that is when you get to learning it. Wow, you're really intent on searching for new repertoire early on!!

Anyway, yeah-- 2nd or 3rd English Suite is a good starting point. I intend on learning the 4th English Suite next. Just off the top of my head, the prelude is really in the form of two part inventions (or some of the other inventions, more parts) and all the preludes from the ES, except the first one, is in a ritornello form of a concerto -- If you study Bach's music, I believe (as does other musicologists) that he learned how to compose by transcribing concerto music for keyboard, like Marcello and Teleman), so you can see in the preludes, a part where the ritornello comes to a close and the concertino section begins; keyboard texture thins.--

So there's just some brief info, on just the preludes... I could really go on about the rest, lol. I definitely agree w/ kitty, Bach Suites shouldn't be determined by "level" because each one is not too challenging technically, but it drains the energy out of a performer who is trying to recreate that Baroque aesthetics of the doctrine of passions... is really difficult on a musical scale. Hope some of that helps--!

[gerryjay]

 of course it did! you know, i really believe what youīre talking about. when i dig into some bach major work, the first thing that always comes out is: what an amazing challenge that must be! i remember an undergraduate paper i made about the second suiteīs prelude: the more i listen or read or think about the music, the more it gets to grow in my mind. do you know what i mean? such an endless process of discovery about his music and technique and whatsoever. so, i actually have an idea about the effort related to bring it to life. 

about your comment, i like to look very forward about my repertory. it gives me time to discover works that i really love and (fundamentally) i could play to my best. and of course to understand and analyse and get kind of biblical intimacy with the work... .

i know that this discussion (study and performance of the english suite) is nearly endless, but i have a very precise question to you. considering the third one, what would be the order of movements to study (what to take first, and so on)? and why? 

hope iīm not bothering you too much. 

thanks a lot!

[hwangs]

Hey gerry,

It's fine, I dont mind at all--!!

It's good that you have a really good sense of looking forward so you have a connection with the music, or a biblical intimacy as you put it, (lol) which I think is pretty awesome to have, because a lot of times I dont have that with a lot of pieces that I work on. I definitely also look forward to learning new repertoire.

I usually learn the movements in order, just because of convenience. If you are to choose the 3rd English Suite, which is an excellent choice, I would say, just start from the Prelude and go on. The prelude is really the hardest pieces in the suite, other than some of the mentally draining gigues (as in the 3rd ES). The hardest for me to make a personal statement with Bach is usually for me the Sarabande. As for the third es, Bach writes out the ornamentations, so you can use them for the repeats-- yet, somehow, you have to make the music sound interesting, yet not too romantic... which is always a hard feat. The Gigue is also a really intense movement, filled with a lot of harmonic tension.

One last thing:
I'm a huge fan of Glenn Gould (though I wouldn't play like he did!), because he makes Bach so personal and interesting through different keyboard touch. Imo, I would use a detache touch especially in some parts of the Prelude and Gigue.

I hope this info isn't over your head, since this is something you plan to learn next year!

[pianovirus]

The hardest for me to make a personal statement with Bach is usually for me the Sarabande. As for the third es, Bach writes out the ornamentations, so you can use them for the repeats-- yet, somehow, you have to make the music sound interesting, yet not too romantic... which is always a hard feat.

That's interesting, so even if it's a bit off-topic here I cannot refrain from saying that I usually love the Sarabande most (the one in the 5th French is my favourite). But agreed about the "interesting, yet not too romantic" part...

[gerryjay]

hi hwangs!

thanks for you reply. i use the same approach for sonatas, for example: i always start with the hardest movement, and then proced to the easiest (normally last-first-slow-another, or first-last-slow-another), and itīs interesting to notice that you use this with the suite also. i asked because in this suite the prelude seems so, but so much more difficult than the rest that i thought perhaps would be useful another way (as studying the dances first, and then the prelude). well, i think that killing the prelude first, the rest will look like a piece of cake...

i never listened to gould playing this suite, but i like the way he plays bach in general (the art of fugue in particular). i agree that itīs of no use playing like he did, but the concept of work in bach with this freedom of approach (regarding of course the aesthetic "rules") is important to give life to his music.

perhaps the hardest part of bachīs music is that: find the path between the cold raw score (and the heartlessness of certain performances) and self-expression (and the romantic kitsch of another). what do you think about that?

best regards!