Pedal in Ravel's Pavane?

[pianochick93]

I have tried this piece both with and without pedal, with pedal it occasionally becomes too blurred, whatever I do. Without, it sounds way too dry.

The copy I have doesn't have any pedal markings on it, but every recording I have heard has pedal.

I'm confused, and I was after thoughts on what you do, or what you would do.

Thanks a lot.

[gerryjay]

hey chick!

i understand your concern. ravel is an exquisite composer, and like everything else, the pedal control in his music must be very precise. as you pointed out, it may not sound either blurred or dry.

a complete description of the pedal would be boring and probably useless after all. so, i´d prefer to comment two instances of its usage (as i did when i play this piece).

measures 1 and 2: you have three contrapuntal lines, each with its own articulation. the flowing melody absolutely legato, the inner part soflty stacatto, and the bass non-legato. well, if you even think of using the pedal here, you will ruin everything. like some passages of mozart, hands must control everything. there are other instances like that, and he actually means every sign he put on the score (the same happens to debussy, occurs me now). so, no pedal at all here.

in the other hand, think of measures 28 and 29 (reprenez le mouvement section). now you have four parts: the same melody (transposed up, but with the same requirements as above), an almost identical (yet also transposed) inner part (staccati), the bass (with its harmony) and a complementary rhythmic/harmonic figuration (bichords of left hand). notice that he doesn´t ask here for a much detailed articulation of both parts of left hand. why? because these parts needs pedal, otherwise the foundation effect of the bass would be lost completely (you possible did try that: arpeggiate the chord on the first beat without pedal. how awful does it sound, doesn´t it?). here, you must be clever about both pedalling and the staccati part of the right hand. as the harmony implies, you must release the pedal every two times (at every new bass). about the right hand, try to play the staccati way softer than the first time (and with a very swallow touch), because like this you will "simulate" the staccato effect (think about what the staccato does to the part in the first and second measure).

could you understand what i wrote or was i too confused? 

hope it can help!

[pianochick93]

That helped a lot. Thanks!

I can see what I was doing in the first bit. I was thinking that I shouldn't use pedal, but I have grown to rely too much on the pedal, so I have had almost no practice controlling with my fingers. I must practice that some more. I also see what you are saying with the reprenez les mouvement section.

Another question I have is what to do in the Large. section, with the big chords - E, B, and G# in the left, and D, F#, and F# 8va in the right. I am barely able to play a tenth, so those are a trouble to me. At the moment I have been leaving out the G# on that chord, and the F# on the next chord.
I was just wondering if that is the most effective way to acheive the harmony desired, because there is absolutely no way I can reach the whole thing. I havn't tried rolling, but I don't think it would sound that great.

[gerryjay]

hey miss chick!
 
i´m glad i did help you a bit. 

about the large section, do whatever you want to those chords, but cut the G# and the F#. those notes are the thirds of each chord, and if you let them go, you´ll destroy the harmonic effect.

the first chord is a E7 with a doubling seventh (E-B-G#-D-D); the second is a D7/9 (D-A-F#-C-E-[C-B-A]) also doubling the seventh at the attack (C at top voice), and then proceding to the fifth (A at top voice). what happens is that you have a parallel motion, which most important sonority is the tritone G#-D moving to another tritone F#-C (hence the why you can´t cut both notes).

i´d propose three solutions:

- roll the chord as you said, with pedal. the effect is interesting, as you have two structurally important chords, so the arpeggio will remark that;

- play the bass as an appoggiatura, slightly before the chord, and play it at the beat with both hands (exactly as you find in the next measure). you remove a bit the effect of the last chord (Gmaj7), but create a very powerful progression (although i have a grain of doubt about what ravel himself would think about that... );

-the last idea is to cut something. the obvious cut is the fifth of the chord (but here that procedure helps nothing); then, the second option is to cut the doublings. since you can not leave the higher voice, the notes to go would be the lower D and the lower C. i must say that this affect the sonority of the paralel tritone, but doesn´t destroy it, so it´s an option.

i did use the first, even with my big hands. 

hope that helps! best regards! 

 

[gerryjay]

I was thinking that I shouldn't use pedal, but I have grown to rely too much on the pedal, so I have had almost no practice controlling with my fingers. I must practice that some more.

almost forgot to say, and excuse me for being so direct: play mozart, girl!



best!

[pianochick93]

Thanks again Gerryjay. I see what you mean about not cutting the G# and the F#, and I think I will Cut the double, the apoggiatura sound like a good idea as well, and that is done a few other time during the piece, so it may not sound too out of place.

Also, I am playing Mozart, not much, but I'm finding more.

[kard]

I'm learning this piece as well.
So you advise absolutely nO pedal (where marked)? Is it the music's intention to have middle and lower voices so detached?
How about..controlled pedal usage? like this one

edit:
eh...please ignore my whining. didn't intend for that