Barenboim London concerts

[franzliszt2]

Whio is going to these? I am going to all of them! I was there last night, and can honestly say it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life!

For those who don't know what I am talign about....Barenboim is doing the 32 beethoven sonatas in a series of concerts over the next few weeks. He did Hamerklavier last night! It was very special.

[franzliszt2]

Nobody?

[thalbergmad]

Nobody?

I will definately come to one of them, not sure which one.

Festival Hall is only 20 miles away from me.

Is this bloke worth seeing though?. I have heard negative things about his performances in France and I could get a years subscription to Playboy for the ticket price.

Thal

[franzliszt2]

He is amazing. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Only idiots say negative things about him, they have no idea what they are talking about. He is one of the greatest musicians that is still alive, and without doubt one of the greatest pianists. He has such a deep understanding of the music. I would go just to feel that atmosphere in the hall, it is unlike ANYTHING I have ever experience. Theres just pure respect for this absolute genius. He's so humble as well.

The 2 concerts I seen so far have been absoultly sublime. You just hear pure music, and nothing else. I will never sell my ticket....good luck getting one, the reurns line gets pretty violent...those old men can really strike hard woith the walking stick!

[retrouvailles]

Thal, get the Playboy subscription. Barenboim is an ***, and his playing shows it. I have seen him play before, both live and in video, and have not been impressed. My opinion is by no means definitive (same with franzliszt2), so go see him if you want. However, the Playboy subscription keeps giving and giving, unlike Barenboim's performance.

[thalbergmad]

I have seen him lay before, both live and in video.

I would like to see that.

Perhaps i should have not mentioned Playboy.

Thal

[rhapsody4]

I disagree. Barenboim exudes class. For a long time I have belived him to have one of the greatest musicians of the modern era. I believe that his touch and expression whilst playing the piano is amongst the best in the business. I, for one, am very envious of Mr. Liszt and if I lived 200 miles closer to London, I too would be looking into seeing the complete cycle. In fact, would I be wrong in the belief that he is perhaps the outstanding Beethoven sonata performer of the moment, or is he on the way down as far as his pianism is concerned? Either way, I hope the rest of the concerts live up to your expectations, Franz.

Barenboim is perhaps more tasteful than Playboy ...

Rhapsody

[retrouvailles]

This is the magic of opinion. It has the potential to be many things, yet all with equal validity.

[elevateme_returns]

just get free porn off the internet and go to barenboim. you cant get barenboim live in a concert off the internet.

[franzliszt2]

Thal, get the Playboy subscription. Barenboim is an ***, and his playing shows it. I have seen him play before, both live and in video, and have not been impressed. My opinion is by no means definitive (same with franzliszt2), so go see him if you want. However, the Playboy subscription keeps giving and giving, unlike Barenboim's performance.

Barenboim an ***. Shut up man, he's achieved more than you and probably everyone in this world has achieved musically. How can you ever call him an *** you confounded idiot, thats so disrespectfull after everythign he has done in this world. I couldn't care less if you don't like his playing, in fact it would interest me to know why....but when you start insulting someone like that it is just pathetic! Have you met him? He's one of the most humble people you will ever meet, and has had such a life and such stories to tell.

Your opinion states you have not been impressed. Thats definitive. Also the fact that he sells out major halls wherever he goes, and Hamelin doesn't. Hamelins London concerts were deserted, nobody wanted to go. Barenboim's cocnerts are all peopel are talking about here.

[tompilk]

people go to the lang lang concerts, it doesnt make him a good artist...

[cygnusdei]

If Barenboim is really good in person he should sue EMI.

[iumonito]

I don't know if the concerts are still going on, but Barenboim is without question one of the top 5 musicians in the entire world today, and most likely the greatest musician among all pianist currently performing.  I would tend to think people know him better as a conductor (he has been at the helm of Chicago for ages and has recorded basically all the orchestral literature).  He has had a long career and keeps getting better and better with age.

But you don't have to take my word for it.  Check out his masterclasses on the Beethoven sonatas on youtube (including teaching Lang Lang a bit of how to understand Beethoven's Op. 57).  His Schumann (Thal, sorry, I know that's wasted on you) and Tchaikovsky 1 with Celebidache (live a few years ago in Munich) are without question my favorite recordings for each of those concertos.

(P.s.  If you like Cziffra better than Schnabel and Berezovsky better than Ashkenazy, then maybe you will not care for Mr. Barenboim that much).

(p.s.2  I think of him as a Rubinstein's joy with Brendel's depth and a bit of Argerich's fire)

[thalbergmad]

people go to the lang lang concerts, it doesnt make him a good artist...

People go to MAH concerts as well.

[thalbergmad]

just get free porn off the internet

I can't hold my screen up with 1 hand.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

You cannot compare MAH to Lang Lang. It simply cannot be done.

[m]

Only idiots say negative things about him, they have no idea what they are talking about....

He has such a deep understanding of the music.

Well, call me an idiot, who has no idea what he is talking about, but after his 4 live performances I attended, I am not going there anymore. His amateurish approach, as well as obvious and consistent lack of practicing was shocking and embarassing. I wish I spent that $$$ for beer in a pub around the corner.

You know, when I pay my dough, at least I am expecting to hear something professional...

On a fair side, a friend of mine whom I trust, was at his recital, where something came on him and it was spectacular. Too bad I will never have chance to experience it myself.

Oh, and for the record, my cat has also a very deep understanding of the music (and life in general). Too bad she just cannot realize it.

Best, M

[franzliszt2]

Well I fully understand that peopel may not agree with his playing....BUT he has done so much for the world musically, and look at what he has acheived in Isreal! I just think to call him an *** is a bit stupid.

I can't stand the way he plays Liszt. I think he is AMAZING when on form, but when he isn't on form, he's not good at all.

BUT....I'd rather pay to see a pianist who has ONE amazing moment, then sit through a recital of a pianist who is always good but never great.

[m]

and look at what he has acheived in Isreal!

Yeah, the funny thing, it seems in Israel he consistantly plays particularly bad.
I remember his Brahms Second Concerto with Zubin Meta in Geyhal-Ha-Tarbut.
I felt embarssed, mind you, for my own money. He did not play ONE single clean passage. When this torture was over, he seemed quite happy with himself. Of course, the audience went nuts, the success was colossal, and Meta was standing next to him with idiotic expression on his face... about the same as Lang Lang's on Jay Leno show.

All that thing was pretty disguasting, but I am sure the "Great Maestro" got his 50 grands or so into the pocket.

Best, M

[retrouvailles]

The phrase "one man's trash is another man's treasure" works especially well for this thread.

[landru]

If Barenboim is really good in person he should sue EMI.

Indeed! The only time I returned a CD was when I got his rendition of the WTC. It still hurts today when I think about it. One hopes it was an EMI goon who was on the pedal the whole time....

[franzliszt2]

Indeed! The only time I returned a CD was when I got his rendition of the WTC. It still hurts today when I think about it. One hopes it was an EMI goon who was on the pedal the whole time....

OH MY GOD he used the pedal! noo thats not allowed is it! OH dear, I'd better get my money back!

As if you could ever do any better!

I'm sure if we all listened to the bad Horowitz recordings we would declare him bad. But if we listent to just ONE of his great achievments we would declare him great. I fully accept that Barenboim has played badly, and yes his Brahms 2 is not that great at all in my opinion. But what we can say is that he has absolutly wonderfull moments that are just amazing.

It's quite amazing that so many great musicians think highly of him as well. I mean they would surely realise if they were looking at a clown.

[general disarray]

Barenboim's been over the hill for some time now.  His peak as a pianist is behind him.  His playing, all too often, is sloppy and sounds as if it's under-prepared.  Maybe his age, maybe burn-out, maybe spreading himself too thin as major maestro.

Most critics agree with this assessment, btw, so don't bother to pounce on me by saying something like, "Oh, and you could do better?"  No, I couldn't.  There.  That's out of the way.

[rhapsody4]

Barenboim's been over the hill for some time now.  His peak as a pianist is behind him.  His playing, all too often, is sloppy and sounds as if it's under-prepared.  Maybe his age, maybe burn-out, maybe spreading himself too thin as major maestro.

The point with listening to Barenboim is that he constantly finds new ways of subtleties in interpretation with each performance. I would perhaps agree that his best days as a technician are behind him and, yes, he is prone to the odd sloppy passage now and again, but I am quite surprised by the criticism he is getting here. All of the performances I have heard (ok, I admit it, I have not seen him actually in concert, so please don't jump on saying that I will have only heard the good) have been outstanding and, for me, enough to put him in some list I may make in the future of favourite pianists of all time.

Most critics agree with this assessment, btw, so don't bother to pounce on me by saying something like, "Oh, and you could do better?"  No, I couldn't.  There.  That's out of the way.

Most critics?

He did not play ONE single clean passage. When this torture was over, he seemed quite happy with himself. Of course, the audience went nuts, the success was colossal, and Meta was standing next to him with idiotic expression on his face... about the same as Lang Lang's on Jay Leno show.

I'm sure that isn't quite true! But even so, what do you expect him to do? Suddenly walk off stage mid-performance? Not take the applause? Everyone can have a bad concert, but the criticism here for someone who has the history of Barenboim seems completely unjustified given what he has achieved in musical circles for well over 40 years.

What next: he plays like a MIDIfile? Give me a break.

Rhapsody.

[m]

I'm sure that isn't quite true! But even so, what do you expect him to do? Suddenly walk off stage mid-performance? Not take the applause? Everyone can have a bad concert, but the criticism here for someone who has the history of Barenboim seems completely unjustified given what he has achieved in musical circles for well over 40 years.

Well, for somebody of Barenboim stature first, I'd expect to have at least some respect to us mortals who buy tickets, and be more honest to the art and spend at least a little bit time for practicing.
Mind you, at that time I was still a student and  spent for his concerts money which was savings of many hours of low paid job/not eating enough.

I know $h*t happens and there are particularly bad days. I was at Gilels' concert when he played Beethoven Op.53 and could not put hands together in 16ths, I was at his concert when he played Symphonic Etudes just catastrophically badly.
Friend of mine was at Richter's concert when Maestro forgot the very first page of Op.106 and had to leave stage for 5 minutes. I can understand all that.

However, when the person systematically, consistently, and shamelessly doesn't bother to practice and then goes on stage, excuse me, in my book it is just disrespectful, un-professional, and ethically wrong. I am not going spend my $$$ guessing whether he bothered or not before tonight.

[franzliszt2]

I have witnessed 2 amazing concerts by Barenboim. I can't comment on your experiences becasue I was nto there, and you can't comment on mine, because you were also not there. I respect your opinions and your views, but you cannot say that he systematically and consistently comes out on stage without practicing, you just don't know the circumstances.

I think the thing to always remember is that he is a great musician. OK, you may not like his playing, or conducting, or musical ideas, but he is a special person.

Do you not think that he has achived any greatness? I would rather take a risk and pay to see him, and ok, I may hear a messy performance, but I may also hear something really profound, like the openign of the slow mvt of the Hammerklavier last week. I would rather hear just one moment like that, than be bored by a pianist who is "clean" all the time.

[cmg]

Whio is going to these? I am going to all of them! I was there last night, and can honestly say it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life!

Well, here's the first problem with this thread.  Hyperbole.  Barenboim's Beethoven cycle is set up as the "most amazing experience" of this poster's life.  Obviously, he is under the age of 21.  No one over that age would make such an extravagant claim.

Barenboim is an excellent musician, but his keyboard mastery has not exceeded that of Gilels or Ashkenazy and other numerous world-class pianists who have performed all 32 in public. 

It's this ego-identification with certain artists, that makes debate almost impossible.  If a certain poster loves, say, Barenboim, then his personal reputation seems to be on the line when others criticize this choice.  Attacking Barnenboim, or MAH, becomes a personal affront that elicits a passionate attack on the adversarial poster.

The point is that forum critics of Barenboim are not simply waspish snipers at his so-called "stature."  They have the right to express their opinions just as much as the worshippers -- who might very well be blinded by the publicist's hype around his current London Beethoven cycle.

[m]

Well, here's the first problem with this thread.  Hyperbole.  Barenboim's Beethoven cycle is set up as the "most amazing experience" of this poster's life.  Obviously, he is under the age of 21.  No one over that age would make such an extravagant claim.

Indeed CMG,

However sinful for some it might sounds, but looking back, somehow the "most amazing experiences" of my life were not related to music at all... not to hurt Barenboim's or Beethoven's feelings.

[counterpoint]

  Attacking Barnenboim, or MAH, becomes a personal affront that elicits a passionate attack on the adversarial poster.

I'm not a great fan of Barenboim, but to compare Barenboim with "MAH" is like comparing a watercolour painting byTurner with a serial silkscreen by Andy Warhol 

[franzliszt2]

Well, here's the first problem with this thread.  Hyperbole.  Barenboim's Beethoven cycle is set up as the "most amazing experience" of this poster's life.  Obviously, he is under the age of 21.  No one over that age would make such an extravagant claim.

Barenboim is an excellent musician, but his keyboard mastery has not exceeded that of Gilels or Ashkenazy and other numerous world-class pianists who have performed all 32 in public. 

It's this ego-identification with certain artists, that makes debate almost impossible.  If a certain poster loves, say, Barenboim, then his personal reputation seems to be on the line when others criticize this choice.  Attacking Barnenboim, or MAH, becomes a personal affront that elicits a passionate attack on the adversarial poster.

The point is that forum critics of Barenboim are not simply waspish snipers at his so-called "stature."  They have the right to express their opinions just as much as the worshippers -- who might very well be blinded by the publicist's hype around his current London Beethoven cycle.

I am under the age of 21 and unless you were at the concert I was at, I don't think your comment has any worth.

I was at the concert with some very old proffessors and pianists who are probably a lot more distinguished than anyone on this forum, and they agreed with me, and if you think my claim is extravagant you should speak to them and you will see my claim is rather mild.

I don't dispute that his keyboard mastery is on par with Ashkenazy, or Gilels, but his musicianship is. Barenboim does not possess the physical virtuosity they did, but thats not important.

Of course it was an amazing experience, a lot happened in that one night, amd who else is there to see on this planet that rival his musicianship? Not many, thats for sure. I wasn't alive to see Horowitz, Rubinstein etc.... They respected Barenboim, but that another matter. So out of the pianists I have seen, Barenboim give me the most pleasure.

[mephisto]

I like him a lot as a conducter and person. But there are many other pianists I prefer over him.

[cmg]

I was at the concert with some very old proffessors and pianists who are probably a lot more distinguished than anyone on this forum, and they agreed with me, and if you think my claim is extravagant you should speak to them and you will see my claim is rather mild.

This claim, in itself, is arrogant and offensive.  You have no idea who is contributing to this forum.

Personally, I studied with a great artist, Herman Godes, now deceased, a Jewish Latvian pianist trained in the Russian school, tortured by the Nazis in the Riga ghetto, who was a protege in Paris -- after World War II and his liberation from the death camps -- of Gieseking and Casadesus.  His horror began as a teenager, ironically after attending, with his parents, a recital by Gieseking in Riga.  Returning home, they were attacked by the Gestapo, who separated them and sent them to internment camps.  He never saw his parents again after that night.     

Due to bad luck, his career never catapulted him to the heights that Barenboim enjoys, but I can tell you that his playing far surpassed anything that Barenboim has ever achieved.  There are many pianists in this world whose careers never flourished as Barenboim's has.  He, certainly talented, had good luck.  Others, many quite superior to him, had bad luck.  It's the way of the world.

You should cultivate a little humilty, sir.

[franzliszt2]

Humility? Says the man who just posted his teachers entire history.

I was not being arrogant, I was simply saying that I was with people (who are certainly equally distinguished as any distingushed person on this forum) that liked Barenboim and are older than the age of 21 and have opinions that should be respected, since somebody declared I must be under 21.

There are greater pianists out there than Barenboim, but there are not many greater musicians.

[thalbergmad]

Humility? Says the man who just posted his teachers entire history.

I had noticed that.

It appears that you need to have a teacher that has been tortured by the Gestapo and has lost at least 2 members of his family to the gas chambers to be able to pass a judgement on this forum.

Whatever will be next. Perhaps those with teachers who only went to Dachau will be frowned upon.

God help us when in 20 year they are all dead.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I forgot tp mention that my teacher ran the New York marathon in under 5 hours, so i think my judgement is sound.

I also studied with "Old Man Jackson" who i think once held the World Record for eating Jaffa cakes.

Thal

[m]

It appears that you need to have a teacher that has been tortured by the Gestapo and has lost at least 2 members of his family to the gas chambers to be able to pass a judgement on this forum.

Hey Thal,

I think your remarks here are quite disrespectful.

In any case, your deductions appears wrong, as the whole idea of CMGs post was about a great musician who did not have luck in the carrer, which was a very direct consequence of his personal tragic life... at least that's how I read it.

M

[thalbergmad]

So do i now that i have re read franzliszt2's post.

I just dont like all this elitist crap.

Anyway, i apologise for any offence that my remarks may have caused.

Thal

[m]

So do i now that i have re read franzliszt2's post.

I just dont like all this elitist crap.

Not sure what "elitist crap" you are talking about, but assumption that some "people who are certainly equally distinguished as any distingushed person on this forum" in my book IS a crap.

Reminds me number one topic of this forum: "Who is better and more distinguished? A or B? Or are they equal? Discuss!" 

[thalbergmad]

This claim, in itself, is arrogant and offensive.  You have no idea who is contributing to this forum.

I was referring to that, before i read franzliszt2's post again.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Holy hell, some of the tickets are £55. I would want to be sitting next to him for that.

All concerts seem to be nearly sold out. If he is that bad, there are a lot of strange people around.

Thal

[m]

All concerts seem to be nearly sold out. If he is that bad, there are a lot of strange people around.

No, he is not bad. In fact, he is a very good musician and very talented person, with incredible memory, etc.
If you are lucky enough and he bothered to practice before the concerts it might be a very good experience.

Best, M

[dansemacabre79]

Reading this forum thread has been so very entertaining, I thank all you contributors.. and now I will add my two cents. It is certainly true that Barenboim is inconsistent and that has led to many people's opinions that he's a bad pianist and/or his performances are not worth going to, but an artist should be judged by his very best work and I can say that Barenboim, when in top form, captures the essence of Beethoven so well that the listener doesn't hear him, but instead hears pure music. The man is also extremely intelligent - there's a fantastic book "Parallels and Paradoxes" which documents conversations between Barenboim and Edward Said. One of the best books about music ever written, and it's endlessly fascinating. I myself am going for almost all the concerts in the last week of the cycle - he's playing some of my favourite sonatas ever and the programmes are very well put together. Can't wait! And franzliszt2, which other concert did you go to?? I thought you only went to the first one..

[franzliszt2]

No I went to the 2nd one as well...the afternoon one where I met you....and your teacher, who in my opinion deserves a lot of respect...and he had a lot of positive things to say on the subject of Barenboim.

The sad thing about this thread is people commenting on concerts they have not attended. I have not attended a bad Barenboim concert, therefore I have no commented on them.,,I just knwo I don't like some of his recordings, but I always find them interesting.

[shortyshort]

I have watched this thread with interest for a while.

I am no expert, but I do like Barenboim. I think he has a passion in his playing.

I do not defend his playing or any of his performances, but I like it.

We all have different tastes. Let's be glad of that.

[ahinton]

I have not personally heard this recent performance but the general response to it seems to have been muted at best and negative at worst. We can all have off days (although I have no idea if that is what befell DB on this occasion). Barenboim's pianism is not to be taken lightly or scoffed at with undue ease and nonchalance, for his gifts in this area as both soloist and chamber musician have on many occasions been proved to be considerable, yet I have to say that the best of his achievements as a conductor have often outpaced them by a substantial distance, not least his striking interpretations of the works of composers as diverse as Bruckner, Busoni, Mahler, Dutilleux and Carter.

BEst,

Alistair

[cmg]

He is amazing. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Only idiots say negative things about him, they have no idea what they are talking about.

I don't understand the attacks on my rebuttal to statements such as these.  Barenboim is a great musician.  I admire much of his work, especially as a conductor and particularly as an interpreter of Wagner.  But, as a pianist, he doesn't measure up to the greatest of his generation.  His sound is generic, his technical command is erratic and, as a result, his interpretative achievement is underwhelming in the final analysis.  Compared to Gilels, his Beethoven Sonatas are generally regarded as quite inferior.

My comments about my teacher, Herman Godes, were not intended to be "elitist crap."  I was trying to illustrate the fact that many great artists have been on this earth and unrecognized.  Recognition, all too often, is a matter of luck. 

Just because artists are recognized does not make them superior.  Lang Lang is a good example.  How many threads here are dedicated to attacking him?  Yet he is a pianist firmly established on the world stage.

As to Thalbergmad's inferences that Herman Godes' victimization by the Nazis is my claim to his need to be recognized as a great pianist -- well, words fail me here.  His victimization destroyed his career.  Barenboim did not suffer in this way.  I'm only embarrassed that I was personal enough on this form to expose myself to such rudeness.

If you people want to regard Barenboim as the pinnacle of pianism in our time, go right ahead.  I'm sorry I even entered this debate.  I only offer this last statement to correct the offensive things I have read here. 

[counterpoint]

As to Thalbergmad's inferences that Herman Godes' victimization by the Nazis is my claim to his need to be recognized as a great pianist -- well, words fail me here.  His victimization destroyed his career.  Barenboim did not suffer in this way.  I'm only embarrassed that I was personal enough on this form to expose myself to such rudeness.

Yes, I too was a bit shocked when reading Thal's comment, while I generally enjoy his hilarious, "sick minded" *lol* comments a lot - they often bear a deeper meaning behind. But Thal is not an evil guy. In my understanding what he wanted to say is: the value of an artist doesn't depend on how hard and tragic his life was! That seems to be the main difference between Barenboim and Godes. But which of them is the better musician and pianist can only be discussed from what they achieved musically and not by their history of life. Of course luck plays a role as well, but if you are famous by luck, you have to proof your ability from concert to concert over the years. So Barenboim is not just the "lucky guy".

[thalbergmad]

In my understanding what he wanted to say is: the value of an artist doesn't depend on how hard and tragic his life was!

That was my intention and i did apologise for my comments.

It just seemed to me from some posts, that it was a requirement to have a great teacher before you could have an opinion on a performance. Hence my "elitist crap" remark.

I apologise for the second time.

Thal

[franzliszt2]

For me Barenboim is one of the greatest pianists around today becasue of his musicality. This always shines through his playing, even though it may be technically erratic and the sound may not always be consistant. Of course Gilels was the greater pianist, nobody disputes that.

Nobody that I have heard YET has matched the musicality shown by Barenboim in a live concert.