What about Jazz?

[frigo]

I wonder if anyone here likes jazz music. I only see posts about classical music - the one i most like, i confess - but i enjoy jazz music too. If you like jazz too, tell me your favourite composers

[Petter]

<<<- Likes jazz. I like Wayne Shorter as composer. Not that original I guess, but the Miles Davis quintet from the 60´s is among the best bands ever.

[thierry13]

Jazz sucks. All of it.

[ctrastevere]

I used to be primarily a classical pianist intending to be a concert pianist, but later developed a great love for jazz which lead me to perform jazz even more than classical music. Playing in a jazz ensemble is one of the most thrilling things one can do, because improvising in an ensemble for an extended amount of time can often be risky. But when you're out there, it's amazing the amount of variety you can create every time you play a tune.

There are many jazz musicians that I love and listen to regularly, including the obvious ones such as Coltrane and Peterson, as well as the obscure ones like John Zorn (I recommend checking him out if you're interested in a very... different musical experience than you're used to.)

Jazz sucks. All of it.

Now there's an intelligent response which is, I'm sure, completed consistent with the statements you've made regarding opinions/ignorance/etc. in the Xenakis thread. Good thing we have good people like you to set an example. You should be proud.

[mephisto]

Jazz is an amazing genre of music. Together with classical music it offers some of the best of what the western world has to offer in therms of music.

I'm just listening to the swedish jazz pianists Jan Johansson who blends jazz together with swedish folk music. Simply amazing.

[thierry13]

Now there's an intelligent response which is, I'm sure, completed consistent with the statements you've made regarding opinions/ignorance/etc. in the Xenakis thread. Good thing we have good people like you to set an example. You should be proud.

I know jazz have had classes on it have to analyse things with jazz standards had to analyse jazz things there are as much if not more jazz musicians in the college where I study. I know Jazz, my opinion is based on facts and true knowledge on the thing.

[ctrastevere]

I know jazz have had classes on it have to analyse things with jazz standards had to analyse jazz things there are as much if not more jazz musicians in the college where I study. I know Jazz, my opinion is based on facts and true knowledge on the thing.

Then you evidently would have found some Jazz that you were able to, if not enjoy, appreciate for the high degree of musicianship it requires. In my experience, Jazz musicians generally tend to know more about music theory and such than many Classical musicians, who struggle to figure what a C13#11 is.

[mephisto]

I know jazz have had classes on it have to analyse things with jazz standards had to analyse jazz things there are as much if not more jazz musicians in the college where I study. I know Jazz, my opinion is based on facts and true knowledge on the thing.

You're embarrassing yourself.

[thierry13]

Then you evidently would have found some Jazz that you were able to, if not enjoy, appreciate for the high degree of musicianship it requires. In my experience, Jazz musicians generally tend to know more about music theory and such than many Classical musicians, who struggle to figure what a C13#11 is.

No I wouldn't have, since I did not and what I said is true. As I said on another thread I think, I can admit the artistry is there sometimes, but it's still Jazz. Jazz musicians do not know more about music theory, they know everything about the theory of how to classify ONE single chord, wich is what, 1% of the world of "theory". Classical musicians own jazz ones on every single other aspect.

[trampindenial]

No I wouldn't have, since I did not and what I said is true. As I said on another thread I think, I can admit the artistry is there sometimes, but it's still Jazz. Jazz musicians do not know more about music theory, they know everything about the theory of how to classify ONE single chord, wich is what, 1% of the world of "theory". Classical musicians own jazz ones on every single other aspect.

Stop being so childish, for started did you not consider the possibility that someone can be good at both apsects of piano playing? Also you act like it takes no skill to be a jazz pianist, well you're wrong, both classical and Jazz are highly demanding in differant areas. If you don't like Jazz that's fine, but don't go round saying that Jazz players aren't proficent pianists.

[i heart xenakis]

I haven't really listened to much Jazz or know enough about it to carry on any sort of intelligent conversation about the subject, but I have really started to like Ornette Coleman lately; especially his newer album "Sound Grammar".  I also stumbled across some more experimental European jazz at the avant-garde project and really enjoyed that too, but unfortunately I'm on my phone at the moment and for some reason that site doesn't work on my nokia XD  So I will post a link when I get home

[thierry13]

Stop being so childish, for started did you not consider the possibility that someone can be good at both apsects of piano playing? Also you act like it takes no skill to be a jazz pianist, well you're wrong, both classical and Jazz are highly demanding in differant areas. If you don't like Jazz that's fine, but don't go round saying that Jazz players aren't proficent pianists.

I never said it took no skills at all to be a jazz pianist. I said classical pianists all have superior skills, wich is true. Sure it takes skills to play Jazz, but never close to as much as classical music demands on higher levels. And no I don't think Jazz players would be proficient in being great classical pianists. They would be like a 10 year old against a mature great pianist. On the opposite, any great classical pianist could play Jazz as great as the jazz "masters", if not better than them because of a better previous training(classical). No I don't like Jazz, but no I am not biased. I mean, everybody can like any sort of music ... Gilels said he loved rock'n'roll music in an interview, does that mean a rocker is as skilled as a classical musician? Never close to it. So I think that the biased point of view is of the ones who love jazz and try to praise it for not being any simpler than classical music, but it simply isn't true!

[thalbergmad]

On the opposite, any great classical pianist could play Jazz as great as the jazz "masters", if not better than them because of a better previous training(classical).

They could play the notes, but that does not mean that they could play great jazz. Look at Steven Mayer's attempt at playing Tatum. Note perfect but bloody awful and sounded nothing like the originals.

I think it is simply impossible to compare skill levels of jazz and classical pianists. Almost as absurd as comparing Sergovia to Hendrix.

Thal

[arensky]

I know jazz have had classes on it have to analyse things with jazz standards had to analyse jazz things there are as much if not more jazz musicians in the college where I study. I know Jazz, my opinion is based on facts and true knowledge on the thing.

You're in college!!?? 

[thierry13]

You're in college!!?? 

With a foot in university.

[ted]

I think the critical difference lies, not in harmony or in finger dexterity at all, but in the internal perception of rhythm. Jazz, both old and new, demands a very highly developed natural sense of rhythm which transcends musical notation to a much greater extent than does classical music. Because of its complete dependence on a sophisticated sense of rhythm in the player, jazz is far harder to approximate in notation than classical. In those areas where fairly accurate transcriptions have been made, for example Waller/Farrell, Waller/Posnak, Morton/Dapogny, Brubeck/Brubeck, a classically trained pianist will certainly play all the notes without experiencing the difficulty of a Liszt study. I hesitate to even go that far actually; a Waller solo like Gladyse, or Morton's Fat Frances feels like a syncopated Mazeppa in places. However, as Thal rightly points out, very few such players understand rhythm at a deep enough intuitive level to meaningfully interpret the music.

For me, jazz and classical are both subsets of the huge landscape of piano music. I enjoy playing it all and listening to it all to the limit of my time and ability.

[i heart xenakis]

Here it is ^^  Try track No. 6


https://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp69/index.htm

[rc]

I enjoy some jazz, have dipped my little toe in it (Davis, Marsalis, Monk).  For the most part I get my jazz exposure from CBC radio, I rarely catch the name of what's playing...  Though sometimes I catch some really weird stuff calling itself jazz which sounds like 3 people playing completely different things or a soloist playing something that I don't recognize as music.

One day I intend on diving into jazz, I would love to be able to improvise like that.

[slobone]

I love jazz, some day I'd really like to study it seriously.

But asking for the best composer is kind of odd -- jazz isn't really about composers the way classical music is. Many of the greatest jazz musicians didn't write original songs, just re-interpreted songs written by others. John Coltrane spent years creating a new style by playing My Favorite Things!

But since you ask, my favorite composers would be Thelonious Monk, who did mostly do original compositions, and Duke Ellington/Billy Strayhorn. I'm sure there are others I'll think of later.

[slobone]

On the opposite, any great classical pianist could play Jazz as great as the jazz "masters", if not better than them because of a better previous training(classical).

I don't see that at all. Jazz is about improvisation, which very few classical musicians have any training in. And any modern jazz musician (since WWII) has to be so thoroughly grounded in music theory that they can play complicated chord changes, scale patterns, arpeggios faster than most people can think.

As others have pointed out, most classical pianists who've attempted to play jazz have come to grief. Usually they know better than to attempt it.

[thalbergmad]

With a foot in university.

And a head in the clouds.

[klavierkonzerte]

i just want to say jazz is the devil
when i first started learning piano my teacher told me tnever learn or listen to jazz and he told me it's great to find somone who's not into that crap.

[thalbergmad]

My teacher said the same about Handel.

Thal

[counterpoint]

My teacher said the same about Handel.

 

Yeah, there are quite some parallels between Handel and Jazz 

One line of chords - then 50 pages of variations over these chords - it's named Chaconne 

[thalbergmad]

 

[frigo]

I see this is a very controversial subject... I like jazz, that's why I asked, because I didn't see any post here about jazz. I think there is a lot of talent in jazz players. I like Blues too... 

[ctrastevere]

I see this is a very controversial subject...

I find that fact to be quite bizarre.

[thierry13]

Jazz is to classical what Mcdonald's is to great restaurants. It's trash and will allways be even if lots of people like it.

[arensky]

With a foot in university.

And your head up your ass. 

[ctrastevere]

Jazz is to classical what Mcdonald's is to great restaurants. It's trash and will allways be even if lots of people like it.

Is there some particular past experience that has caused you to despise Jazz so passionately? You're the first musician I've ever seen who hates Jazz with such intensity. Do you hate Gershwin and Kapustin too? I realize that their music isn't Jazz, but wouldn't their inspiration from what you would consider to be "trash" reflect badly on their own compositions? Just curious.

Also, to address the claim that Jazz requires significantly less ability to play than classical music, does the statement by Rachmaninoff (certainly one of the greatest of classical pianists) that Art Tatum was the greatest pianist of any style carry any validity in your mind?

And I also agree that it's somewhat absurd to compare Jazz and classical music -- they are completely different on so many levels.

[mknueven]

Frigo,
Jazz has its own language - and I guess unless you understand it either with your heart or mentally - one might not like it.  I love it so much that I have a hard time believing anyone
doesn't like it.
I think it's just a controversial person here - not controverial subject.
Jazz expresses all of the emotions -where I find classical does not for me.
It's different for everyone - I guess. 
I don't know about composers -Chris Botti is one of the best jazz musicians (trumpet player) - and of course Herbie Hancock just won a grammy - Not that often for jazz!
Nat King Cole, Tony Bennet, Norah Jones, Burt Bacharach (he is a composer)
just for starters
If you play for parties - most people will want to hear jazz instead of classical.

[cygnusdei]

When there is a vacant piano around I usually enjoy playing songs with 'jazzy' harmonies. I think my chord vocabularies are getting better each time, but still far from how real masters would play. Some songs that I like to play, for instance

The shadow of your smile
You were meant for me
Pure imagination

etc..

[thierry13]

Is there some particular past experience that has caused you to despise Jazz so passionately? You're the first musician I've ever seen who hates Jazz with such intensity. Do you hate Gershwin and Kapustin too? I realize that their music isn't Jazz, but wouldn't their inspiration from what you would consider to be "trash" reflect badly on their own compositions? Just curious.

No, there is absolutely no bad experience in my life with jazz. I hated it from the first note I heard of it, and still hate it. Gershwin and Kapustin are really not on the list of the composers I enjoy particularly. I like Kapustin far more than gershwin tough. Kapustin did some good things. I think one should not mix up classical composers using jazz and jazz musicians. To throw some jazz chords in classical music can be great. But pure jazz is just ... well you know what I think about it.

[thierry13]

And your head up your ass. 

Woaw you're so funny ...

[mephisto]

Woaw you're so funny ...

Er, it WAS really funny.

[ctrastevere]

I think one should not mix up classical composers using jazz and jazz musicians.

True in the case of Gershwin. Kapustin on the other hand was a jazz musician.

[thierry13]

True in the case of Gershwin. Kapustin on the other hand was a jazz musician.

Depends of what pieces. He wrote some only jazz stuff, some only classical, and some hybrid stuff.

[ctrastevere]

I'm still curious about your thoughts on Rachmaninoff's statement.

[webern78]

Kapustin on the other hand was a jazz musician.

"I was never a Jazz musician"

- Nikolai Kapustin.

 

[webern78]

They could play the notes, but that does not mean that they could play great jazz. Look at Steven Mayer's attempt at playing Tatum. Note perfect but bloody awful and sounded nothing like the originals.

Yes but Mayer isn't exactly a first rate classical pianist, either.

Granted, i don't think anybody could play Tatum other then Tatum. This is a problem with classical pianists trying to tackle on Jazz transcriptions: all Jazz musicians make their own music and they are the best interpreters for it... because it's their music.

If Chopin was alive today do you think even the best trained and talented pianist would be able to capture the music as well as the composer himself?

[ctrastevere]

"I was never a Jazz musician"

- Nikolai Kapustin.

 

"I am not a pianist."

- Kaikhosru Sorabji

Sometimes statements such like this simply don't do justice to the abilities of the individual making them. I often tell people that I am not a singer -- I'm sure many would have quite a different stance on that... though I can't possibly see why! 

[thalbergmad]

Yes but Mayer isn't exactly a first rate classical pianist, either.

If Chopin was alive today do you think even the best trained and talented pianist would be able to capture the music as well as the composer himself?

I thought Mayer was an exceedingly fine pianist after listening to his Liszt v Thalberg disk. Depends on your definition of first rate really.

If Chopin was alive today and played his own music in competition, do you think the judges would throw him out?

Thal

[ahinton]

If Chopin was alive today do you think even the best trained and talented pianist would be able to capture the music as well as the composer himself?

I cannot say with any certainty, of course, as I wasn't around at the time, but let us not forget Chopin's reported response to hearing Liszt playing some of his études...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I cannot say with any certainty, of course, as I wasn't around at the time

Well, closer than most of us.

Thal

[elevateme_returns]

And your head up your ass. 

its already been done for fucks sake, thals was way funnier

[engelbach]

I'm a jazz pianist who happens to spend more time listening to classical music. To me, serious composed music can be far more complex than jazz, if only because the former has a much larger vocabulary. Yet jazz can be so joyous and moving. And in playing it, discovery of the music through one's own improvisations can be extremely satisfying.

Yes, much of jazz can be uninspired and repetitious. The reason we may not find this so often in classical music is that, compared with jazz, there are far fewer venues for bad composed music to be heard. If there were many classical music clubs and classical improvisation were to become widely popular I'm sure quite a bit of dull stuff would be produced.

The best jazz can possibly be likened to the improvisations of a Mozart or Chopin — although, obviously, a real comparison is impossible.

But the skills are the same: command of an instrument, sensistivity of touch and tone, understanding the structure of the tune being played, thorough knowledge of theory and the ability to employ it instantaneously, and the ability to compose melody on the spot.

Of the musicians I have known, few classically trained ones have had a knowledge of theory comparable to that of the jazz players. This is purely anecdotal; I don't know if this difference exists throughout the musical world.

[thierry13]

"I am not a pianist."

- Kaikhosru Sorabji

Sometimes statements such like this simply don't do justice to the abilities of the individual making them. I often tell people that I am not a singer -- I'm sure many would have quite a different stance on that... though I can't possibly see why! 

"I am a composer" (not a pianist)

- Vladimir Horowitz

That is another example. Sorabji was not a pianist wich is true. He was a composer. He COULD play the piano, but that was not his principal occupation. I think you should'nt discredit those kind of quotes. Now I don't fully agree on Horowitz about him being a composer before a pianist ... but he still WAS an amazing composer (I think).

As for the Rachmaninoff quote, I have many toughts. First, have you ever heard the phrase : The exception that confirms the rule? I think that could apply to Tatum. By the mere fact that he was an exception it confirms what I said. Second, did any of your teachers play something to you and it was so amazingly beautiful that you tought your teacher had to be the greatest pianist you ever heard(wich is a great impression). Now if it didn't happen to you it happened to many other people. That is the feeling you can get when you are very much impressed by the playing of somebody who is personally played for you, or who gave a performance in a more intimate ambiance(not a big concert hall). Now maybe Rachmaninoff heard Tatum heard tatum in a great hall, but still I keep my points.

[webern78]

Well, to be frank, i never heard anything by either Rachmaninoff or Horowitz that was as virtuoso as Tatum at his most frantic, therefore i'm inclined to believe their comments regarding the latter were serious.

Is it so hard to believe Jazz could have produced a greater virtuoso at that point in time?

[cygnusdei]

Sorry for digressing ... but if Horowitz was indeed a composer, he surely was insensitive to the intentions of other composers. Personally I am against his alterations of Liszt's texts.

[pita bread]

I don't like jazz either, and I REALLY don't like Kapustin or Gershwin.