Lightening Fast Octaves

[RGPianoMusic]

Hi everyone.

This is my first post here.  I am 28 and I have been playing since I was 3 years old.  I have finished a program that I will be using for the Liszt Competition next year.  I will play the Spanish Rhapsody, Sonata in B minor, La Campanella, among others and simply as an impressive addition, I would like to increase the speed of my octaves in the closing of La Campanella.  I have already mastered the technique and have had the piece under my belt for 2 years.  I have tried alternating the 5th finger with the 3rd and the 4th but the thumb is still difficult to get any more repetition out of. I am using plenty of wrist flexibility but my limit have been reached.  I heard a recording of Yundi Li performing La Campanella.  My technique, individuality and dynamic range is just as good if not superior in my opinion. However, his octaves are about tripple what I can do. In fact, I couldn't play as fast with 2 hands as he could with one.  I have already read every post here regarding speed and most recommendations seem to be either to slow down (which only works if you don't know the notes, or are adding unwanted movements and tension) or to simply avoid playing fast altogether.  Playing fast is a manner of mechanics.  For me though, I have simply reached my limit.  If anyone has any REAL suggestion for increasing octave speed other than the obvious mechanical improvements and tension reduction, I'd really apreciate it.  

Oh, and for those of you who would like to be able to play faster runs, scales, and arpegios, try "dotted rythem" practice.  this is only for those of you who have mastered your technique at a slow pace and can play moderate to moderately fast as a result of your superior technique and mechanics. Many times, it's simply a matter of being able to think faster.  If you are unable to play a large run fast, try a small piece of the run but it must be lightening fast.  Maybe just 2,3,4 or 5 notes.  Those notes would be played much faster than you could if you were playing the entire run.  As the days go on, you can try adding one note at a time or more.  This will build your tolerance to faster playing.  By the time you are done, your scales will be like lightening.  For  example, lets say you are playing a 2 octave scale like the cadenza at the end of Liszt's 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody.  Maybe, you try playing the first 3 notes plus the thumb under the 3rd finger only.  Try those 4 notes very fast, almost like grace notes.  play them light as speed replaces volume anyway.  When that is mastered, try starting with the same note you ended on, and then contuing to the next note that brings the thumb under.  that's where most pianists have the most trouble regarding speed in scales.  It's trying to manage the thumb coming under without losing speed or evenness.  So practicting each "thumb under" move at a much fast tempo than you could do if you were trying the whole scale, will allow you to eventually accomplish the whole scale.  You just add each piece together as you master the move at the increased tempo.  This is very effective because you immediately are able to play faster with this tecnique.  you just need more time before you can handle more notes at a given time.  I have been unable to make this work with octaves as there seems to be a mechanical limitation that I can't over come.  If anyone can help, please let me know.  Thanks

Rich G.

[goalevan]

Have you tried playing them thumb over?

[newsgroupeuan]

I watched the video clip of him at https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/special/?ID=yundili-liszt

I think :

1.Use your for this one, use 1-5 for RH, and use a "shuddering"/"fast bouncing" movement with wrist  to get them fast.  Raise only about a cm at most. His wrist is not totally relaxed - more like controlled tension

2.He doesn't raise his thumb a lot,  he more or les slides it along,  for the 1-4 1-4 1-5etc.  thing

Of course,  what I am saying could be total nonsense....but it may work...I've never done "la campanella"  but I found the passage and it worked for me

Wathch the video clip - there is a media cliip drop down menu on the right hand side of the page - select la campanella at:

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/special/?ID=yundili-liszt

and share with us what you think also

regards,
Euan

[newsgroupeuan]

1.Use your for this one, use 1-5 for RH, and use a "shuddering"/"fast bouncing" movement with wrist  to get them fast.  Raise only about a cm at most. His wrist is not totally relaxed - more like controlled tension

On second thoughts make that an inch

[RGPianoMusic]

Thanks for the advice!  Unfortunately, I was unable to watch the clip.  I'll try again from another computer if I can find one. So it looks like he is basically sliding along?  i would think that it would be very difficult to get each octave to come out as clearly as his does like that but having ot seen the clip, I'm really in no position to judge.  so it's more like a wrist flutter?  Like a piano eqivilent of a drum role maybe?  I'll really try to get that clip.  thanks so much

Rich

[newsgroupeuan]

I'll really try to get that clip.  thanks so much

Rich

It's a music video (if you know what I mean)  so it doesn't focus much on his hands,  so you'll probably have too watch it to see

thanks for your advice too

[chromatickler]

I heard a recording of Yundi Li performing La Campanella.  My technique, individuality and dynamic range is just as good if not superior in my opinion. However, his octaves are about tripple what I can do.

You have been fooled by his recording. The slower than average speed for the rest of the piece is an interpretation gimmick (Almost Pogorelich-like). In concert he encores this piece in something like 3 minutes.

[cziffra]

what do you mean by that?

[chromatickler]

what do you mean by that?

It means in concert he plays this considerably faster than Kissin on the "Gift of Music" video.

[RGPianoMusic]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  Are you saying that he plays it EVEN FASTER than his recording because I can't imagine it getting any faster than that?  

What do you mean by "interpretation gimmick".  you mean playing slower and using more rubato because he can't play it faster?

Rich

[chromatickler]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  Are you saying that he plays it EVEN FASTER than his recording because I can't imagine it getting any faster than that?  

What do you mean by "interpretation gimmick".  you mean playing slower and using more rubato because he can't play it faster?

Rich

He uses "interpretation gimmick" for the exact opposite reason as most other pianists. Meaning he can actually play faster than everyone else but CHOOSES to play slow. until the octave finale, where he makes sure you understand this.

The pedal blurring in the last variation before the finale almost had me fooled though.

[newsgroupeuan]

I checked it out ... again...and ..... I was looking at the wrong bit !!! Very very sorry!! was looking at the bit on the page before!  sorry again

I can't work out the guy does it!!!(this is the last page we're talking about,right)

*goes off to find wall to whacxk head off,  looks around for half hour only to find a wall was right in front of him for the past half hour,  so collapses of exasperation*

Best wishes,

Euan

[mosis]

I thought that La Campanella wasn't supposed to be played quickly. It's hard enough at slow speed, and it seems to me that Yundi Li plays it way too quickly. The recording I have is much slower, and in my opinion it is much more beautiful.

[newsgroupeuan]

I thought that La Campanella wasn't supposed to be played quickly. It's hard enough at slow speed, and it seems to me that Yundi Li plays it way too quickly. The recording I have is much slower, and in my opinion it is much more beautiful.

I agree

[cziffra]

He uses "interpretation gimmick" for the exact opposite reason as most other pianists. Meaning he can actually play faster than everyone else but CHOOSES to play slow. until the octave finale, where he makes sure you understand this

i'm still trying to understand this logic...does this mean that if you CAN play it at x beats per minute, it becomes gimmicky if you play it any less of a tempo?  what if you decide that to be musicallty acceptable it needs a specific tempo regardless of your own capacity?

[faulty_damper]

I think it means that if you play it slow for a while, that tempo sticks with the audiene.  But in the end, you can pick up that tempo slightly and the audience will think it's going faster (which it is) and think it's incredibly fast!  Hence the gimmick.

[newsgroupeuan]

HI!!!

I'VE WORKED IT OUT!!!!

You'll never believe this....but to do it as fast as he does use1-5 only for the left hand octaves at the end!!!!!!

So 1-5 1-5 1-5 etc.

This time I hope it's the right bit,  from the animato,  last page

It works because if you use  3s and 4s at the end your brain gets confused.  It can be deduced from the video that he does this cos he uses his forearm in a way that he cannot possibly be doing anything but 1-5 only - you do not raise your forearm so much if you use 1-4 and 1-3.

Otherwise....just do it slow

Comments?

Best wishes

Euan

[maxy]

There are many ways to conceive the piece. Some pianists play the beggining very fast and then slow down a bit at the end.  Power in the octaves instead of speed.  Others start slow and end fast.  

Go with what you feel is right.  For any given piece, the fastest possible has been done.  It is not necessary to try to compete on that level.  

If you still really want to speed up the octaves, don't actually "play" all the octaves.  Some are played and the others are "rebounds" from the initial octave.

 

[stevie]

Go with what you feel is right.  For any given piece, the fastest possible has been done.  It is not necessary to try to compete on that level.  

  

world records are there to be beaten.

cziffra's recording is my favourite of this piece, sparkly and snappy all the way through, and the end is played with the most drama ive ever heard in this piece, because of the flexibility of his tempo.
but yundi li for sure has the fastest and most technically impressive recording.

[Dazzer]

funny how mosto f his post was a self-advert till the end.

[I Love Xenakis]

The fastest recording of La Campanella to my knowledge is 2'44".


If you're interested in Liszt and speed, I highly recommend that you visit this piano forum:

https://www.dasdc.net/



I'm sure we over at da SDC will be able to help you.

[gruffalo]

funny how mosto f his post was a self-advert till the end.

agreed, but he asked for help (although i cant help), help should be given and he did give some of his own technical advice at the end. some people like to show off. i was like this with singing and sometimes i still am and im trying to control it because confidence is needed but not to the point where it becomes arrogance.

[bearzinthehood]

What helped me improve my octave technique was to imagine bouncing a basketball.  The activity of bouncing a basketball can involve the entire arm, from the shoulder to the fingertips.  Increasing the speed is like bouncing the ball from a lower and lower height, until eventually the ball is bouncing only millimeters from the floor.  At this point coordination becomes the key to consistency.

[ramseytheii]

What helped me improve my octave technique was to imagine bouncing a basketball.  The activity of bouncing a basketball can involve the entire arm, from the shoulder to the fingertips.  Increasing the speed is like bouncing the ball from a lower and lower height, until eventually the ball is bouncing only millimeters from the floor.  At this point coordination becomes the key to consistency.

I think that's a fantastic image.  Fast octave playing is really involving repetition in the arm muscles and the wrist just can't really be involved, and the fingers can't be flying around all over the place, except as the arm picks them up to move them.  A lot of times trying to play successive fingers in fast octaves, ie 3-4-5 all with thumb, is not wise, because really it's the "dumb" repetition that makes it possible. 

I at least used to think it was "dumb," meaning there was no way intelligence could help one improve this element of technique, after all it is only mindless muscle repetition akin to pumping irons at the gym.  But then I realized that lots of intelligence goes into it, because for the body to be positioned in the optimal place to use the muscle to play the fast octave, *breath*, the phrasing has to be ideal, the phrasing at the smaller levels I mean.  "grouping" octaves is really the key to loosening them up and gaining speed I find.

Also I don't doubt that Yundi Li really plays fast, but also speed is psychological.  A lot of times I listen to a recording of a piece I know, and attempt it as fast as the recording, only to find that the sense of speed was enhanced by other elements.  For instance if you take the coda of La campanella, and play everything at the same volume, it is just going to sound heavy-handed.  However if you are always going from very soft to very loud, in the span of a few notes (octaves), already it sounds lighter, faster and more agile, even if you are playing at the same speed.  It helps here to record yourself.  Also somebody else mentioned that by playing earlier parts of the piece slower, you can really make a big tempo contrast.  "Speed is an illusion," is said time and time again, and it is true, but really you have to discover for yourself all the elements that make that illusion. 

Walter Ramsey

[chromatickler]

"Speed is an illusion,"

WRONG

[crazy for ivan moravec]

WRONG

i assume that we're talking about SPEED in musical terms...

i don't agree totally. speed in music is an illusion, most of the time.

what is the main purpose of speed? to HELP create excitement in music. how do you make music exciting? with elements, if combined and used properly, can play with the mind, which then translates it into anxiety, restlessness, etc. (playing with FEELING/INSTINCTS, usually has these elements combined and arranged automatically properly, although not guaranteed all the time. it can be a gift.)

And speed is just one of those elements. it doesn't mean that you'd have to beat the stopwatch in order to be musically correct. you need to use speed properly; create an illusion that you're playing it fast.

have you ever heard a digital piano sped up like crazy? it doesn't sound exciting at all, and yet it's fast. i bet your stopwatch will go crazy.

my teacher in a lesson of some piece, "psst, wanna make it faster?" i said, "how?"           - "play the running 16ths a little louder, but make sure your main musical line and still comes out."

it's true, coz in this way, you try to exhaust your listeners' minds, they'll think there are too many notes at one time.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

as for euan, i wouldn't know exactly what your problem is with octave speed... do you hit wrong notes when you try to speed it up? or you can't make your tempo any faster anymore?


this is purely technical. no illusions whatsoever...
anyways, i usually and primarily relate diffculty of a technical passage with my relaxation. there is tension in our muscles which we sometimes don't feel. and so we think that we're ok. but this tension which we are not aware of, IMO, causes us to play wrong notes. when we play a wrong note, we are probably reaching for the right note but due to tension, we move slower. but because we have to be in time, we automatically play a different note  in order to catch up with the correct rhythm. (because tension made us slower, right?)

(but if relaxation is not the problem, then i would move on to my next possible solution.)

so here is how i would practice:

try practising everything slow and softly. when we do this, all our muscles are at their best relaxed mode! everything in your hands is ALIGNED well. get that feeling into your brain.
next, pump up the volume a little. then get that feeling of your relaxed muscles again. then pump up the volume for the 3rd time...

now, speed it up a little, but start with playing it softly again. the process is a notch higher everytime...

something like this:

Tempo 1+Volume 1
Tempo 1+Volume 2
Tempo 1+Volume 3

Tempo 2+Volume 1
Tempo 2+Volume 2
Tempo 2+Volume 3

ETC.

the impt thing here is that before speeding up, we make sure that our "relaxedness" is up for the speed we want. if we play too fast or too loud right away, our brain will remember the muscles movements, which were mostly wrong: unrelaxed, not aligned, forced, etc., thus, new bad habits for that passage.

-----------------------------------------
also try shifting the position of the wrist (upward and downward) once every few octaves. changing the position breaks the tension for a moment. just make sure to make up for the sound. the sound can change when position changes. i saw stanislav ioudanitch do this with that hungarian rhapsody.


if you've tried all that i've said, then i know nothing else.

- crazy