Fingered Editions

[bonjing]

what might be the advantages if a student play from editions that have not already been fingered by the editor?

[guendola]

1. Editors fingerings are certainly a good help if someone doesn't know much about fingering. But once you are getting better in making up your own, you will often have totally different ideas and with all the x's the paper soon becomes a mess.

2. Of course one is tempted to use the editor's fingering as a starting point for the personal fingering. This can be a big waste of time in case the editor's hands are very different from the player's hands or if he is from a very different school. I try not to do that anymore because I had quite a few pieces where I had to change a bit of fingering in a late phase of learning and had to re-learn these sections with the new fingering (usually due to problems when playing faster) while my own fingerings are much more stable.

3. An editor's fingering is no match to a tailor made personal fingering.

4. It is cool, you are a great guy if you can play music without the editor's fingerings

[faulty_damper]

I agree with guendola's comments.

With enough experience and ability, a fingered piece of music can tell you a lot about the fingerer.  It can tell you how he views technique and even how he views music-making.

Take for example Chopin's fingering.  According to his contemporaries, they were the worst fingering possible and they do look indeed awful if you came from playing scales and alberti basses.  But play it with such a technique and you'll sound awful.  Coincidentally, very few of his contemporaries could play his compositions to his satifaction.

Ideally, when a student learns how to play the piano, there should be no instruction about fingering or even what those numbers mean.  They shouldn't be there at all.  These fingerings become a crutch and prevents the student from ever learning how to play the piano well.  And coincidentally, most people who take up this instrument never get beyond this pedantic phase.

Ideally, a student learns how to play the piano intuitively, choosing what is easiest for the desired musical effect.  This is one reason why most children play so well, assuming no instruction was given about technique.  The moment technical instruction is given, he ends up becoming a lousy pianist.

Under this technical umbrella, the moment a student learns what those numbers mean and associates those numbers with certain fingers, he's doomed to suck, and suck badly, and potentially injure himself and never play the piano again, which cures his suckiness completely.

[puddy]

Fingering is important when we cannot rely on pedalling. Most baroque pieces will test the pianist's patience and discipline. Fingered editions published by examining boards gives us a path to follow and in most cases seem to be logical. Playing scales and arpeggios instills the discipline of fingering, as does phrasing. I used to try to get away without paying attention to the given fingering until i realized that the given fingering took everything into account. Try the trodden path. Less risk of getting lost.

[Kassaa]

Fingering is important when we cannot rely on pedalling.

:O totally wrong way around.

Pedalling is important when you cannot rely on fingering.

[rachfan]

Hi bonjing,

Fingering differs by the shape of the individual's hand.  So in figuration varying from straight scales, there is no one universal fingering.  No one fingering fits all pianists. That's why when sometimes another pianist will ask about a particular fingering, I never say "use this one"; rather I always say "try this and see what you think".   

As one progresses from intermediate to advanced level, urtext editions are the best.  Urtext editions put most emphasis on the composer's autograph manuscript and the first printed edition, as well as any corrections in the second edition.  The earliest editions of the same music by different publishers in different countries are also examined and compared.  Known comments or notes made by the composer about particular music along with the comments of his students in studying the music with that composer are also taken into account.  Many urtext editions also have a scholarly "editorial commentary" by the editorial board at the end of the volume discussing differences and options noted for many fine points in the music.

Lesser "edited" editions vary greatly in quality.  Some are excellent and some are dreadful with a lot in between.  Publishers of some old editions that are still around today hired editors little experienced in piano repertoire, theory and performance, and paid them a very small rate per page of music edited.  Some of the fingerings that resulted are outlandish and useless!  On the other hand, there were editors who were masters.  Some of the best fingerings ever devised were by the pianist/editor Rafael Joseffy, for example.  But there again, if a clever Joseffy fingering doesn't fit your hand well, then you need to devise one that works for you. 

There is one type of fingering that always requires your careful attention and consideration--one by composer himself.  I've played a lot of Rachmaninoff, for example.  He very very seldom wrote down a fingering; but when he did, it had my undivided attention!  But still, he had enormous hands, so there again, even his fingerings might not be suitable for everyone, especially those with small hands.

I realize that sheet music is expensive--it's always been that way.  So young students tend to copy sheet music however it comes and from wherever it can be found for free to get by.  As time goes on though, and one can better afford to buy sheet music, my advice is to first consult a repertoire guide like Hinson's Guide to the Pianist's Repertoire which gives information on available editions for any piece of music.  For me, the priority is always 1) an urtext edition like the Henley series, 2) a very highly regarded edition such as the Paderewski edition of Chopin, or 3) the only edition if one publisher still retains all publishing rights.  What I always try to avoid are editions that are suspect in the amount and quality of editing.  When it comes to editing, less is more!  An uncluttered score enables the pianist to craft his or her own interpretation of the music.

I hope this helps. 

[puddy]

:O totally wrong way around.

Pedalling is important when you cannot rely on fingering.

True, unless you're playing polyphonic passages, in which case pedalling is out of the question.

[guendola]

:O totally wrong way around.

Pedalling is important when you cannot rely on fingering.

Are you playing the pedals with your fingers?

Here is one exception to my rule (get scores without editor's fingerings):

I got a nice book called "the little baroque pianist". It explains in some detail how and why in that time fingerings were used, such as "strong finger on strong notes" etc. This is actually quite interesting but it clashes with the fact that a modern pianist learns to play evenly with any fingering and the effect gets way smaller.

[guendola]

A slightly OT question: Are there places on the internet to check for original music? I have a lot of old sheet music from the 1970s with a few funny details where I can't tell if they are from the composer or from the editor (except for a Busoni edition of Beethoven Ecossaises where I am pretty sure that he even changed some of the music).

[rachfan]

Hi guendola,

One place you can get free sheet music is right here on PianoStreet.  Just click on Piano Music up in the top navigation bar.  A great deal of the standard repertoire is represented there.  You can also see which edition is offered. 

If by "original" music you mean the composer's handwritten manuscript, or the first printing, oftentimes those, especially if they are very old, are only available from certain libraries, museums, institutes, or in privately-held collections spread around the world.  But if you can consult an urtext edition, the editors of that volume will have already looked in all those places to get their edition as accurate as it can be.

[Kassaa]

Are you playing the pedals with your fingers?

Here is one exception to my rule (get scores without editor's fingerings):

I got a nice book called "the little baroque pianist". It explains in some detail how and why in that time fingerings were used, such as "strong finger on strong notes" etc. This is actually quite interesting but it clashes with the fact that a modern pianist learns to play evenly with any fingering and the effect gets way smaller.

Finger legato sounds way better than pedal legato, and the pedal should be applied thoughtfully, not always.

[guendola]

Finger legato sounds way better than pedal legato, and the pedal should be applied thoughtfully, not always.

Don't worry, four years of my piano lessons, I wasn't allowed to use the pedal at all.

What I meant to say by my silly quote was that fingering is used to make playing easier and perhaps shape the sound a tiny little bit while pedal is a totally different tool. It should be obvious for an experienced pianist that the sustain pedal can't turn stakkato or portato into legato.

[slobone]

This is one reason why most children play so well

They do?    Let's ask some of the teachers here...

[slobone]

A slightly OT question: Are there places on the internet to check for original music? I have a lot of old sheet music from the 1970s with a few funny details where I can't tell if they are from the composer or from the editor (except for a Busoni edition of Beethoven Ecossaises where I am pretty sure that he even changed some of the music).

You want to look for the so-called Ur-text editions, which claim to reproduce the composer's original music without any editing. But many of them also add their own fingering. This is not supposed to confuse you, since most composers (with the exception of Chopin I guess) didn't provide fingering for their own music.

My take on the whole thing is, I always at least try out an editor's fingerings, and if they don't work I change them. The problem is that some editors are better fingerers than others. The guy who did the Henle edition of the Goldbergs has some pretty peculiar ideas...

[kennetht]

I have been playing the piano for 60 years.

I used to find fingerings helpful.  Nowadays I find them close to useless.  Draw your own conclusions.

[lelle]

I have been playing the piano for 60 years.

I used to find fingerings helpful.  Nowadays I find them close to useless.  Draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is that when you are inexperienced, other people's advice on efficient fingerings helps you on your way, whereas when you are experienced, you know your hand and your technique, and your own approach to fingering will suit you best