Messiaen

[rachmaninova]

Hi there!

Could you help me with a list of composers (and works for piano) who studied with Messiaen or are in any way linked to him, besides the obvious Xenakis, Boulez, Berio....
I'm going to make a future recital centered on Messiaen, probably with some of his works, one or other work from a pupil and "Le tombeau de Messiaen" by Jonathan Harvey. But first, I need to make some research.

Thank you in advance!

Best regards,
Carla

[mephisto]

George Benjamin, a British composer studied under Messiaen at the Paris Conservatory. Messiaen is reported to have said that George Benjamin was his favourite pupil. I belive his work is a little bit more accesible than many other contemporary composers.

I know two of his pieces:
Shadowlines and 10 piano figures. Pierre Laurent Aimard plays his work.

[rachmaninova]

Thank you! 
I'll search for his works!

[retrouvailles]

George Benjamin is a great option. In addition to Shadowlines and the 10 Piano Figures, look up his Piano Sonata and Sortilèges. I quite like the Piano Sonata, moreso than the other pieces (I don't think Sortilèges has been recorded, sadly).

Another pupil of Messiaen that is (possibly) worth noting is Stockhausen. The various Klavierstücke (especially the ones used in the opera Licht) are worth noting.

A composer that was a pupil of Messiaen for a short time was Pascal Dusapin, who wrote a wonderful set of etudes at the turn of the millenium. Some are on YouTube (under my account) played by Ian Pace and are worth checking out.

I saw that you picked Jonahan Harvey's Le Tombeau de Messiaen, which is a great piece. You also might want to look at Tristan Murail's Cloches d'adieu, et un sourire (In memoriam Olivier Messiaen), which is another great piano piece (both composers are associated with spectral composition). Murail is another student of Messiaen, so there are other works of his worth checking out, of course, like the big Les Travaux et les Jours. He also has some relatively shorter pieces.

Messiaen's widow and student, Yvonne Loriod (still alive!), also has some compositions for piano, but I don't know too much about them.

[rachmaninova]

Thank you, retrouvailles! 

I already knew Tristan Murail's "Territoires de l'Oubli". It's a huge work and I like it a lot.
I'll try to find the other works you mencioned and I'll check your recordings on youtube.

[rachmaninova]

George Benjamin is a great option. In addition to Shadowlines and the 10 Piano Figures, look up his Piano Sonata and Sortilèges. I quite like the Piano Sonata, moreso than the other pieces (I don't think Sortilèges has been recorded, sadly).

I found a recording of "Sortilèges":

https://www.telos-music-shop.com/_plentyShop__Neue-Musik-Klaviermusik-Hommage-a-Messiaen--Werke-von-Messiaen--Stockhausen--Xenakis--Benjamin-und-Murail/a-83-36-52-0-0-0/?plentyID=3b4c66d5cf4b1c62b27330f7a64bc63815022008111905

[retrouvailles]

Ah, very cool. I might check it out. The sheetmusic looks very interesting.

[i heart xenakis]

I'm not sure if you'd be interested in programming such a massive work, but Messiaen taught Jean Barraque, and I'm sure you know what work I refer to then

One composer you should seriously look into though is Alexander Goehr; he wrote a lot of solo piano music, and most of it is of a very programmable length.  It's also quite varied in idiom, so you have a good bit of choice.  For instance, if you would be looking for something lighter and more ear-pleasing you might take a look at his Sonata No. 1, or if you're looking for a bit of fury you should take a look at Nonomiya Op. 27.

There's another and actually more seminal (I would say at least) spectral composer in Gerard Grisey that, again, you should certainly think about using in your program.  Another composer I really like that was pupilled by Messiaen is Gilbert Amy, although I can't say I know much about his piano output.

And last but not least, I'm quite surprised nobody has mentioned William Bolcom.  You have 12 Etudes, 12 New Etudes, Bagatelles and the rags to choose from, and I'm sure within that seemingly small but incredibly varied output you could find maybe even too many pieces you would like to try


Hope this helps.



PS- obviously he wasn't one of Messiaen's students, but I think a piece by Takemitsu would serve your purpose just as well, if not better, than many other things.

[rachmaninova]

Thanks, i heart Xenakis!

This helps a lot! Of course you understand that Barraqué's Sonate is a little too big (and hard  ) for the purpose, but I'll check the other composers.

You're all being very kind, thank you! 

[lorguemystique]

Deleted by author

[pita bread]

Jolivet?

[retrouvailles]

Jolivet was not a student of Messiaen, and that is what she asked for in the opening post.

[rachmaninova]

Actually, I asked for both students and composers related in some way with Messiaen.

Jolivet was, as well as Messiaen and other composers, a founder of "Jeune France"'s movement. They were colleagues and both the ones who continued notorious after the ending of this movement (well, Messiaen was much more notorious, of course).

[retrouvailles]

Jolivet could work quite well, then. His Cinq Danses Rituelles are probably my favorite piano pieces of his. It is a shame that Jean-Yves Daniel-Lesur, the other member of La Jeune France, didn't have any piano music, for he was an organist.

[indutrial]

Here's a pretty complete list that combines everyone's suggestions with a few others. Though I'm certain you've likely perused this, it is a good set of links which might help flesh out your list of piano pieces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_students_of_Olivier_Messiaen

I've heard the piano sonata by the Serbian composer Ivan Jevtic as played by Mira Yevtich on a Col Legno recording from the 1990s. That might be a nice piece to consider if you can find it anywhere. I wish I had a copy of that recording. It's not listed on Col Legno's site but it's mentioned on Jevtic's own site. I was lucky and heard it played on a really good college radio show that has since gone off the air  . Aside from that sonata, almost everything I've heard by him is chamber music for brass instruments. Good stuff though.

I agree that Jolivet's piano work is damned good, especially the two sonatas and the 1949-50 concerto, which I finally found the score for recently. Talk about a composer who makes good use of orchestral percussion! I would have to say that my favorite stuff by him is certainly his chamber music and his concertos though (especially the two cello concertos and the bassoon concerto). But I digress.

[retrouvailles]

Agreed, the Jolivet piano concerto is amazing. It is a shame that a good recording does not exist.

[indutrial]

Agreed, the Jolivet piano concerto is amazing. It is a shame that a good recording does not exist.

I'm assuming you've heard the older recording that I've heard from somebody's past post at GFF. It's a good performance, but it makes it very apparent that this work is definitely in need of a decent modern recording that can help bring out more of its subtleties. As with most of what I've heard from Jolivet, the music is loaded in that regard.

[jaypiano]

Hi, Messiaen and Messiaen-student fans.  I was one, so have lots to say on the subject, but for
now, just wanted to address the question raised by I Heart Xenakis concerning piano works of Gilbert Amy.  He actually wrote for/dedicated a piece to me, so I couldn't be more aware of the output.  Going in chronological order, he has a Sonata (1957/60), Epigrammes pour piano (1961, rev. 1967), Cahier d'Epigrammes (1964), Obliques I (1989), Obliques II (1991), Obliques III (1989), Etude-Variation (2001).  His publishers are Amphion and Heugel.

[s_bussotti]

Hi, Messiaen and Messiaen-student fans.  I was one, so have lots to say on the subject, but for
now, just wanted to address the question raised by I Heart Xenakis concerning piano works of Gilbert Amy.  He actually wrote for/dedicated a piece to me, so I couldn't be more aware of the output.  Going in chronological order, he has a Sonata (1957/60), Epigrammes pour piano (1961, rev. 1967), Cahier d'Epigrammes (1964), Obliques I (1989), Obliques II (1991), Obliques III (1989), Etude-Variation (2001).  His publishers are Amphion and Heugel.

Wowwwwwwwww thanks so much   *buys it up*


And just who might you be, just out of curiosity?  <3

[jaypiano]

Check out https://jaygottlieb.free.fr

[rachmaninova]

Check out https://jaygottlieb.free.fr

I know you! I was just going to order your recording of Ohana's Studies (they are gorgeous!)... What a coincidence! 

Thank you for your insight on Gilbert's piano works and thank you all for your contributions.. Now I have lots of material to check! 

[rachmaninova]

I know you! I was just going to order your recording of Ohana's Studies (they are gorgeous!)... What a coincidence! 

Thank you for your insight on Gilbert's piano works and thank you all for your contributions.. Now I have lots of material to check! 

I made a mistake on my previous post. My apologies to Jay Gottlieb! 

I was searching for Ohana's works and made an order for a recording of his études (but not by Jay Gottlieb) and was also looking for other works with piano (for instance, "Avoaha", in which the piano part was played by Jay Gottlieb, hence the confusion).

I hope you'll forgive me! 

PS: BTW, your discography is very impressive!

[jaypiano]

Hi Rachmaninova,
Of course you are forgiven.  I immediately understood that you meant Avoaha and not the Etudes,
despite the fact that Etudes 7-12 were written for/dedicated to me!  I will one day certainly record them all, but for the moment, too many other projects.
And who/where are you, if I may ask?

[rachmaninova]

Hi Jaypiano,

With further investigation, I noticed that a part of Ohana's études was dedicated to you. 
I look forward to see in a not so far future your recording of this work! 

I'm a piano student / accompanist from Portugal. 2008-2009 will be my final year to get my "Bachelor" degree (in Portugal is called "Licenciatura", although I don't know exactly to what this is equivalent in other countries) on piano performance. The next step will probably be the european post-Bologna 2nd cycle of studies which is called a "Master" degree. I'm more focused in chamber music (specially post-1945), but there isn't much choice available in my country.

[jaypiano]

Hi Rachmaninova,

Do you know the music of Antonio Chagas-Rosa?  I premiered a beautiful piano concerto of his, in Macao, that had won the Gulbenkian Prize.  He is very talented.  Also a British composer who lives in Portugal, Christopher Bochmann.  A good friend. Also very good. 

[retrouvailles]

Jay, you must tell us more about these composers. As an avid new music enthusiast, I am always eager to know more about it.

[rachmaninova]

Jay, you must tell us more about these composers. As an avid new music enthusiast, I am always eager to know more about it.

Well, I can help you with that. Just go to www.mic.pt. It's a database of works, composers and musicians from Portugal with some score and recording samples. Unfortunately, it's quite incomplete and doesn't have any info on the most recent wave of great young composers who are winning international competitions.

I don't know the music of Antonio Chagas-Rosa very well, neither his piano concerto, but you put me very curious! Christopher Bochmann is very popular here and has an intense activity on teaching (he as published a book about harmony and the major-minor tonal system).

You'll love other portuguese composers such as Fernando Lopes-Graça (this is a figure of reference), Jorge Peixinho - he went to Darmstadt masterclasses with most of Messiaen's pupils (both have amazing works for piano, amongst others), Constança Capdeville, Álvaro Salazar, João Pedro Oliveira... You can also look at Luís de Freitas Branco (more impressionistic) and Joly Braga Santos (a quite original composer in the middle of the 20th century).

[rachmaninova]

Hi Rachmaninova,

Do you know the music of Antonio Chagas-Rosa?  I premiered a beautiful piano concerto of his, in Macao, that had won the Gulbenkian Prize.  He is very talented.  Also a British composer who lives in Portugal, Christopher Bochmann.  A good friend. Also very good. 

Here it is the reference to your premiere of Chagas-Rosa's Piano Concerto:
https://www.mic.pt/cimcp/ingl/presentation.html?/cimcp/dispatcher?where=2&what=2&show=1&obra_id=65&lang=EN

[rachmaninova]

Hi Rachmaninova,

Do you know the music of Antonio Chagas-Rosa?  I premiered a beautiful piano concerto of his, in Macao, that had won the Gulbenkian Prize.  He is very talented.  Also a British composer who lives in Portugal, Christopher Bochmann.  A good friend. Also very good. 

Hi Jay,

I was looking for replies for my posts (I've been away for a long time) and I saw this one from you. I recently heard a recording of Chagas-Rosa's "Sonata voor piano". It made me want to play it immediatly! Do you know it? Unfortunately it isn't published...

It's very rewarding to see international musicians appreciate our portuguese composers' works!

[jaypiano]

Hi Jay,

I was looking for replies for my posts (I've been away for a long time) and I saw this one from you. I recently heard a recording of Chagas-Rosa's "Sonata voor piano". It made me want to play it immediatly! Do you know it? Unfortunately it isn't published...

It's very rewarding to see international musicians appreciate our portuguese composers' works!

HI Rachmaninova,
Funny, I haven't been here for a very long time, either, but today a little inner voice said to have a look at what's going on, so found your message.  No, I do not know his "Sonata voor piano", but knowing him, it is no doubt an extremely worthwhile piece. You gave me a great idea--to ask him to send me a copy.  To be continued...