Can I be a school band conductor ? Please help me !!

[dora96]

Hi everyone,

I am piano dipolma student, My daughter's school needs a school band conductor ? They know I play the piano, but I know nothing about conducting and other bass instruments. I am just wondering can I be school band conductor? Due to they are short of poeple doing this role. There is no one helping out the band, I thought it will be to like  help out the school. However, what to involve to be conductor if I don't know other instruments? Can someone in the forum help me? I know the songs the kids play is dead easy like Hot cross bun, twinkle twinkle little star, old McDonald has a farm etc... I want to know the concept of conducting before submitting myself. I don't want to be a blind leading a blind.

[quantum]

Seems these kids are at a beginner level on their instruments.  Unless they attend private instruction on the instruments, the conductor may need to provide instruction on how to play them.  Rudimentary stuff like correct sitting and holding positions, basic tone production for flutes, reeds and brass, fingerings.  You are not expected to be a master at all instruments, just know enough to teach beginner material and recognize problems and bad habits.  At higher levels of playing you don't need to really instruct on instrument technique and you would focus more on interpretation.  However, with beginners you will undoubtedly get questions such as why doesn't my instrument sound right, how do I play this note, etc. 

Sax player is squeaking a lot, maybe he chipped his reed.  Flute player feels dizzy (this is common for flutes).  Clarinet player is hunched over resting his elbows on his knees.  If you are comfortable recognizing things like these you may be ok with this job.

Do you play a band instrument? or have you ever been in a band before?  Such experience does help. 


Excellent book.  You can read it in a day or two:
https://www.amazon.com/Conducting-Technique-Beginners-Professionals-McElheran/dp/0193858304

[Bob]

Yes to everything Quatum said. 

Piano and teaching beginners are related, but very different.

I would actually call what a director does "conducting" all the time too with a beginner group.  It depends on the situation though.  It may be more like method book review and clapping.

So yes, I suppose anyone could go in and tell the kids to play through x-exercise and clap then in.  That could work.  You just need a plan for the rehearsal, but you also need a plan for what that band is doing, and that depends on the schedule the the flow of the kids through the system.  Some places are actually teaching everyone their instrument in one huge group.  (Yuck, yes) 

Knowing the basics of all the isntrument helps.  Not everyone knows that coming straight out of college though.  That's an area that's been cut down.  But if you specialize in beginning band, you've got more of that.

Quality isn't the greatest.  It's leading a group.  Hopefully, you can correct playing mistakes -- and it's not unusual to have big ones, like someone hold the instrument backwards. 

Don't forget classroom management either.  It doesn't matter what you know if they won't function as a group.

I would say anyone can do it, but not everyone can do it well.  That's with or without training.  Everyone who is new and stepping in front of a group of beginners is learning on the spot. 

It all depends on that school's setup and situation. 

I would also say conducting for beginners is far different from conducting for a high school.  It's a lot less conducting and more teaching. 

If they have no one else, go for it.  Why not?  You'll be messing up some kids, but even the best teachers are messing up kids I think.  There's only so much a person can do. 

And the motivation for the kids is different than for individual piano lessons.  They just want to have fun with the instruments.

They may have no music background either.  They may have no idea what a band does and what a quarter note is.

The couple big things for beginners are tone and time.  They should be able to make a representative tone on their instrument.  They need to feel the beat so they can play together as a group. 

I would be very leery of a sitation where you have to actually teach all the isntruments in one big room.  Rehearsal review, fine.  But trying to teach clarinets to a new fingering, while teaching the flutes a new fingering, while teaching the brass something new... and then what about those percussionists?  I wouldn't want to do that.

Most of a group situation is playing.  The kids are there to play.  You can't stop and explain something too much. 

You'll learn a lot by doing it though.  That's for sure.  You'll also get to work with the nice principals and all the other teachers and people in the building.  They might even want to pull some kids out of the band time now and then.  Fun.

And I'm guessing you must have certification in order to get into the school and be the only adult in the room with kids?  Unless they need a sub....

From piano, I would say it's more along the lines of those early music group lessons rather than anything like a traditional individual piano lesson.  I could see a piano teacher doing ok or crashing and burning.  It just depends on a lot of things.  I you want to, go for it.

You can't be too demanding on the kids.  Most aren't going to practice. Hence, the inclass practicing.  It's just a different animal.

[dan101]

I've been a band teacher and the head of a music department at a private school for eight years. I teach grade 6 to 12.

As a pianist and composer, I really only have fluency on the keyboard. Here are some suggestions:

1. Buy a fingering handbook that includes all concert band instrument fingerings (Carl Fischer publishes one).

2. Spend a couple of weeks with five or six of the band instruments. After I was hired, the school phoned the store that our students rent at and allowed me to take some woodwind and brass instruments home for a few days. If you don't feel comfortable asking for such a request, rent a flute, clarinet and trumpet for a month.

3. Buy one teacher's method book (I bought Standard of Excellence), which will teach you about mouth positions, etc.

4. Brush up on your eartraining and transposition. You will have to read scores at sight and instantly transpose on the piano.

I have perfect pitch, which really helps in identifying students who play wrong notes. It gave me the confidence to pursue the job that I have kept for so long. One thing to keep in mind is that playing the piano is a huge asset. Best of luck. 

[quantum]

A word on fingerings.  The fingering chart for one instrument is enough to make a person dizzy, let alone a chart for every instrument in the band.  Best way to learn fingerings is to play the instrument yourself.  When you do, you will start to see patterns how notes are arranged and the fingerings will make a lot more sense.  Moreover, certain instruments share similar fingering patterns.  Eg: sax and flute. 

[timothy42b]

Dora,

Do it if you can, it will help you more than them.

Yes, there is a lot of skill and knowledge involved in doing this well, and you don't have any of it.  But then there's the other 99%, the energy and enthusiasm you will bring.  Okay maybe I exaggerate, but at that age you really do have the chance to turn them on to music for a lifetime, and this is solely dependent on your attitude, not your academic skills. 

However, you do have the responsibility to acquire the skills you need as soon as possible.  I would suggest two routes: 

First, join a community band.  You are a piano player/teacher most accustomed to individual approaches.  Bands are group processes and you need to immerse in the group culture.   You have to learn some of this from the inside, by doing.  Every band teacher played in multiple ensembles through high school and college, and the good ones continue to play in community bands; you have some catchup to do.  It doesn't take that long if you pay attention. 

Second, you need to start taking lessons on one instrument at a time at the local community college, technical school, whatever is available.  You won't get to a high level of skill but there is familiarity you need.  Remember all those little nuances piano beginners don't figure out on their own, but you showed them the first lesson?  That's also true for flute, sax, trumpet, trombone, etc.  Take lessons on one instrument per semester and you'll be in good shape in a couple of years.  By the way, community band players love to chat and will fall over themselves to show you stuff on their instruments.  I know I've done so, in similar circumstances. 

[dora96]

WOW!! Thank you for all your advice, It has been so encouraging. My weakness is working with people. For example. when I play the piano at Church, I am fine on my own playing music and song leader sings. Once with other musicians came and play their instruments together, I am going to piece. I think it is about the timing, beats and people is so busy and there is hardly time to rehearsal. especially they are doing it voluntarily . I also find that it is hard for me as classical trained pianist to switch to playing modern music. I am so used to practice highly technical piece. It seems modern music is so easy. Sometimes, easy music is not that easy after all  I think I can handle it well but I don't . sight reading, and tempo I am weak

Anyway, back to the School band, I certainly give it a go. Conducting a choir is it same as School band? In church choir, there is few part of the music ( tenor, alto, bass etc...)
I am trying to study the conductor to choir to gain some conducting experience. Do you think it is good idea or not?

[quantum]

Okay maybe I exaggerate, but at that age you really do have the chance to turn them on to music for a lifetime, and this is solely dependent on your attitude, not your academic skills. 

And this is a very rewarding part of such a job.  To see the joy making music brings to them. 


I love this site for woodwind fingerings.  There are charts for both beginners and advanced players, and those who like extended techniques.
https://www.wfg.woodwind.org/

[quantum]

Anyway, back to the School band, I certainly give it a go. Conducting a choir is it same as School band? In church choir, there is few part of the music ( tenor, alto, bass etc...)
I am trying to study the conductor to choir to gain some conducting experience. Do you think it is good idea or not?

Conducting a choir is slightly different from a band, but the leadership skills needed are similar.  In a choir you have diction, breathing, understanding of text in relation to the music, and of course intonation.  In band intonation is not simply fixed by a change in how your body works, but also awareness of what makes your instrument play out of tune.  Breathing is also important, but works differently for each instrument as some require more air flow than others.   

Even though I am not currently a band conductor, it is a subject and ensemble that greatly interests me.  I played clarinet and sax for many years throughout elementary, high school, and university bands - my main instrument always being piano.  I attend an annual band conductors conference in my city to keep my skills in check. 

I understand where you are coming from with regards to church music.  When I started accompanying services many years ago I too felt the same way.  Try to think of it as a different style of music.  Just as you play Baroque different from Romantic, you play classical different from modern church music.   I do conduct and accompany volunteer choirs weekly at church, and I will  have none of this nonsense "I want to sing but don't want to come to rehearsal".  If you want to be considered part of the choir, you come to rehearsal regularly - end of discussion. 

I'm trying to get my choirs to broaden their rep.  Singing everything from chant, to Bach chorales, to modern worship music - all with the correct stylistic awareness and performance practise for each genre.

[thierry13]

Hi everyone,

I am piano dipolma student, My daughter's school needs a school band conductor ? They know I play the piano, but I know nothing about conducting and other bass instruments. I am just wondering can I be school band conductor? Due to they are short of poeple doing this role. There is no one helping out the band, I thought it will be to like  help out the school. However, what to involve to be conductor if I don't know other instruments? Can someone in the forum help me? I know the songs the kids play is dead easy like Hot cross bun, twinkle twinkle little star, old McDonald has a farm etc... I want to know the concept of conducting before submitting myself. I don't want to be a blind leading a blind.

I would not do it in your present condition, you must have a good knowledge and know how EVERY instrument works, and be able to teach EVERY instrument ... you will not have only the conducting to do, you will have to teach every student how to play every part before the whole thing works ... I wouldn't do it.

[quantum]

Conducting a choir is it same as School band? In church choir, there is few part of the music ( tenor, alto, bass etc...)
I am trying to study the conductor to choir to gain some conducting experience. Do you think it is good idea or not?

I'm guessing your question here enquires weather vocal parts are similar in nature to band instrument parts.  A band full score would contain a lot more staves, including many transposing instruments in various clefs (unless it is a C score).  Eg: When you see a Bb clarinet playing a "C" it means the clarinetist plays "C" on their instrument but sounds like a Bb on the piano.   So you will see several different key signatures simultaneously.

At first you may just wish to follow along only one part, so you don't get confused.  Maybe Flute or Clarinet since they are closest in position to the conductor.  After a while you will get more accustomed to the score and your eyes can jump staves with more facility.

[Bob]

I'm losing my train of the thought on the thread...

If people skills are an issue, I would skip the band.  I could see a charismatic person being successul leading a band without really knowing what they're doing because they have the ability to motivate people.

Band and choir conducting can be the same.  Maybe even choir being easier since you don't have to worry about transposition and intstrument fingerings.  A school band rehearsal and school choir rehearsal can be a little different.  Some choirs can read music at sight.  Some need to learn everything more by rote.  I lead a choir that I rarely actually held my hand up and directed.  It was more like working with them to get them to sing the music.  Not much conducting involved, and that was more like general music than band for sure.

If YOU want to improve your skills, I would say sure, go for it.  Even if you crash and burn, you will still learn a lot or have a chance to find out a lot of things you don't know.  It might screw up some kids, but... what the heck?  Even people with plenty of training and experience are messing kids up.  I would be concerned about messing the program up though, but if the school has a struggling music program... and you're probably not going to mess it up any more than it already is... I would say go for it.  Do it for you.  Your learning.  And hopefully you can do a good enough job the kids get something out of it.  A school with a strong, developed music program isn't going to let someone in who's not "from" that area, but if they let you in, why not take advantage of it?

Maybe there's a mentor or some other music teacher around who can give you a few pointers?  Conducting doesn't have to be rocket science.  If it's just a matter of getting everyone to start at the same time, it might be easier to have someone give you a few ideas, rather than trying to tease that information out of a book on conducting.

A lot of school band music really isn't too complex.  It's still harmony in parts.  The notes are just spread out among the instruments. 

[quantum]

I'm with Bob.   You don't know if it's your thing unless you try it.  You might end up loving it.  If its not your thing, at least you tried and hopefully got something out of it.

[dora96]

Thank you very much for everyone contributing the idea about this thread. At the moment, I just start off to learn from a choir. My problem is :- When I play the piano accompanist in the choir, I am always affecting by the choir because I am playing the hamony and they sing the melodies part. The beginning is ok, but after going for a bit I feel really struggling. Is there any method to hold part of my service firm, not affecting by others. Is there any practical idea for accompanist? I am also bit struggle to follow the conductor in the choir. The concentration and again so easy to affecting by others. I feel that it is as matter of getting used to it and practice more with others. However, experienced and professional  people are not always patient with me sometimes. I need to learn as quickly as possible. It is frustrated

[quantum]

I'm not totally sure I understand what you said in your last post.  Could you give an example?

Ensemble playing and accompanying is not like solo playing.  You have to be more tuned into what everyone else is doing.  The premise is to always listen and adapt.  People in an ensemble who play rigidly to how they think the music should go tend to sound sloppy because they are not continually adapting to the ensemble directive.  When you are in an accompanying role the you should aim to be constantly attentive to your fellow musicians and ready to adapt at a moment's notice.  If a soloist makes a mistake - skips a line, gets stuck on a word - you should be immediately prepared to skip that same line or pause on a chord till they find their word.  You should listen for when your fellow musicians are running out of breath and quicken up the tempo, or when they are stumbling on technical passages so you can give allowance.

[timothy42b]

When I play the piano accompanist in the choir, I am always affecting by the choir because I am playing the hamony and they sing the melodies part.

 Is there any method to hold part of my service firm, not affecting by others. Is there any practical idea for accompanist?

I am also bit struggle to follow the conductor in the choir. The concentration and again so easy to affecting by others. I feel that it is as matter of getting used to it and practice more with others. However, experienced and professional  people are not always patient with me sometimes. I need to learn as quickly as possible. It is frustrated

Well, a couple of ideas maybe.

Pianists can play all their lives alone and never struggle to fit in with anything beyond a metronome - some can't do that!  But as you're finding out, it can also be fun to play with a group.

It's a skill you have to learn.  Do you sing along with your playing at home?  That's a starting point.  It's hard, I work on it a little each day, because I accompany the cantor in church services, and I'm getting better but I'm not there yet.  Ultimately you should be able to play an SATB piece and sing each line along. 

Do you sing parts in a choir?  When you join a choir that sings parts, you usually go through a stage where you focus on your part and tune the others out.  After a while they stop distracting you.  But then you get to the stage where listening to the other parts actually helps you to sing yours.  I think you're still at the first step, but you will learn. 

And metronome, metronome, metronome!  I would bet the reason you don't follow the conductor is not because he changes tempo, but because you do.  Turn the rubato switch off - you are no longer allowed this function.  He has that function, but will use it sparingly.   Sopranos will drag, it's in their DNA, but you will follow the conductor and keep everything on track. 

It may seem obvious but you do have to look at the conductor occasionally, and always keep him in your peripheral vision.   This is harder for you than the singers, who can move their sheet music in line. 

Finally, the problems you've described is one that all of us who play in wind ensembles faced and overcame decades ago;  these are required skills in a group, more important than individual technique.  That's why I recommended a community band, even if it's only on bass drum.