Work on rhythm, character, fluency, memory, ear and voice with Solmization

[musicrebel4u]

Here 2 new videos with my student (at the time of recording he just turned 5). Pretty funny videos indeed  ! On one I was trying to explain Anker how hard to live in a shoe and to have too many children to feed. His answer was: 'Why don't they go to work?'

On the second video we played a game. I  'hired' Anker as an accompanist and offer 'good pay' in music dollars, if he would listen to my singing. So, as you will see he was very close of being 'fired', but caught my singing at last.

The aim of this topic is to share with you, how much Solfeggio (no 'movable Do', please  ) can help to develop different aspects of child's 'music mind'. On this videos you would see how Solmization along with playing piano helps to build skills to sing in tune. On the top of that singing Solfeggio applies  to the one of the most developed skills of any healthy child – speech memory.

*After such exercises my children are able to write down any melody that they learned, they have no problems transposing them and in future they decode many music pieces into Solfeggio syllables (in DIFFERENT KEYS). I already promised to start topic about music dictations. I will do it as soon as I can scan some pictures for this purpose. *

[mike_lang]

You might be interested in this page which seems to serve your purpose:

https://www.patphil.com/dieudonnee_english.htm

Best,

ML

[musicrebel4u]

You might be interested in this page which seems to serve your purpose:

https://www.patphil.com/dieudonnee_english.htm

Best,

ML

Thank you, Michael!
In Russia we have similar curriculum in state music schools and students study Solfeggio from 6 years old every week for academic hour and half. In fact, no musician can get into music secondary school or university without passing music dictation exam and Solfeggio sight-reading.

[musicrebel4u]

New video of lesson with 3-year-old girl. Wonderful Soleggio singer!
You also could hear voice of her 7-year-old brother singing Solfeggio.

[dora96]

New video of lesson with 3-year-old girl. Wonderful Soleggio singer!
You also could hear voice of her 7-year-old brother singing Solfeggio.

Question about Soleggio, if there is no moveable Do, it will be ok for students to play song written in C major. What I experience that if the song is written in Eb major the Do will Eb, the Soleggio will be wrong. Could you explain how does it work with this method? I used to play with electric organ in a club before, the song it is written form of numbers from 1 to 8 which represent the Soleggio for easy transposing. Once I know the melodies in Soleggio, as matter of working out the different keys. However  the song is not always in C. How do I explain to the students the different scales with different key signatures, how to teach them sing with flat and sharp or even in minor keys.

[musicrebel4u]

Question about Soleggio, if there is no moveable Do, it will be ok for students to play song written in C major. What I experience that if the song is written in Eb major the Do will Eb, the Soleggio will be wrong. Could you explain how does it work with this method? I used to play with electric organ in a club before, the song it is written form of numbers from 1 to 8 which represent the Soleggio for easy transposing. Once I know the melodies in Soleggio, as matter of working out the different keys. However  the song is not always in C. How do I explain to the students the different scales with different key signatures, how to teach them sing with flat and sharp or even in minor keys.

Dora,
Why make 2 steps to connect sounds with letter of alphabet and then with  Solfeggio syllable, if you can make only one?
There are 7 modes and children memorize them pretty fast.
In Russian music school at Solfeggio lessons we sang, for example: Sol La Ti Do Re Mi Fa# Sol. But my students sing with no pronunciation of sharps and flats, but keeping them in mind during singing and playing (or singing inside)
Advantage?
They develop voice, ear, theory and ability to write music down in any key on the fly.
For training we use flash cards, these circles (students have to say them from 1-1,2-2,3-3,4-4,5-5,6-6 like a poem fast back and forth and of cause computer program 'Note Alphabet' (you may download free Demo from here) -https://www.doremifasoft.com/notealphabet.html (if you press I - it would be Solfeggio, A – alphabet note names)
About advantages of using Solfeggio note names I wrote here:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,29070.0.html

No problems with Major/Minor, with modulations or transposition.

[keypeg]

There are 7 modes and children memorize them pretty fast.

Ah, now something you wrote before makes sense.  I remember you wrote something like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star like this:
1. do do so so la la so - fa fa mi mi re re do
2. re re la la ti ti la - so so fa fa mi mi re
3. mi mi ti ti do do ti - la la so so fa fa mi
etc.

So essentially they were sung in modes: # 1 is in Ionian, # 2 is in Dorian, # 3 is in Phrygian etc.  I think you have to state that or else people will be confused.  They will think that you are keeping to the diatonic scale and modulating from the key of C to the key of D, and then it does make sense if for # 2 you don't sharp "fa" because you haven't told them it is modal.

I understand that this is how you were taught?  After being able to do this the next stage was to be able to add sharps and flats for a diatonic sclae becuase you were well versed in pitch?  I have a feeling that I learned in the opposite direction of how you learned, but ended up integrating pitch and relativity in one consciousness too.  Only you went from pitch as solfege names and into the relativity, and I went from relativity into pitch, adding the alphabet names, but thinking both.

The wheels go in endless circles in thirds and then fourths always ending at do.  Do your students say them, or do they also sing them?  The thirds are easier to sing than the fourths I noticed.  But if sung, in your system do would be the pitch of C, correct?

[dora96]

G'day Musicrebel4u,

I am not familiar with your method. I do understand the first picture, the second and third I am not quite sure using thirds and the fourths in your picture. How does it help the students understand the different keys?.

I used to learn from the music letter C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. I will use the number 1 to 7 to represent the from Do to TI. If the music is in G ( G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G) so the G is 1 A 2 etc..Lots of hymn books have the number written under the note for pianist to transpose to different keys. But I don't known how to apply your method.  My teacher used to say if I want to transpose to different key go up to semitone for practicing. I do believe that lots of classical piano students don't understand how to transpose, I have to rewrite the music on the paper, and  I really can't do it in my head.

[johnk]

Hellene, You have lost me too, with these circles! I would like to understand how they are used.

KeyPeg, I think the Twinkle song is sung normally, not in modes, just singing the different solfa syllables. Kids would not be able to sing a familiar song in a strange-sounding mode. They would just know to sing it higher if it starts on RE etc.

Hellene, I still dont understand how they would know which notes must be played sharp or flat in keys other than DO. They would hear it is wrong and adjust once it was played, as in your videos, but how would they know before they try the keys? 

[musicrebel4u]

Ah, now something you wrote before makes sense.  I remember you wrote something like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star like this:
1. do do so so la la so - fa fa mi mi re re do
2. re re la la ti ti la - so so fa fa mi mi re
3. mi mi ti ti do do ti - la la so so fa fa mi
etc.

So essentially they were sung in modes: # 1 is in Ionian, # 2 is in Dorian, # 3 is in Phrygian etc.  I think you have to state that or else people will be confused.  They will think that you are keeping to the diatonic scale and modulating from the key of C to the key of D, and then it does make sense if for # 2 you don't sharp "fa" because you haven't told them it is modal.

I understand that this is how you were taught?  After being able to do this the next stage was to be able to add sharps and flats for a diatonic sclae becuase you were well versed in pitch?  I have a feeling that I learned in the opposite direction of how you learned, but ended up integrating pitch and relativity in one consciousness too.  Only you went from pitch as solfege names and into the relativity, and I went from relativity into pitch, adding the alphabet names, but thinking both.

The wheels go in endless circles in thirds and then fourths always ending at do.  Do your students say them, or do they also sing them?  The thirds are easier to sing than the fourths I noticed.  But if sung, in your system do would be the pitch of C, correct?

The thirds are easier to sing than the fourths I noticed.  But if sung, in your system do would be the pitch of C, correct?

JohnK explained the idea correctly

'KeyPeg, I think the Twinkle song is sung normally, not in modes, just singing the different solfa syllables. Kids would not be able to sing a familiar song in a strange-sounding mode. They would just know to sing it higher if it starts on RE etc.'

In addition to that I have to say that the circles have to be saying, not singing. This is what we call Solmization,

[musicrebel4u]

G'day Musicrebel4u,

I am not familiar with your method. I do understand the first picture, the second and third I am not quite sure using thirds and the fourths in your picture. How does it help the students understand the different keys?.

I used to learn from the music letter C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. I will use the number 1 to 7 to represent the from Do to TI. If the music is in G ( G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G) so the G is 1 A 2 etc..Lots of hymn books have the number written under the note for pianist to transpose to different keys. But I don't known how to apply your method.  My teacher used to say if I want to transpose to different key go up to semitone for practicing. I do believe that lots of classical piano students don't understand how to transpose, I have to rewrite the music on the paper, and  I really can't do it in my head.

Dora, if you try (for a moment) to forget that music notes are CDEFGAB. They are Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti, it would be easier for you to understand. Do – is always Do and it is always before 2 black keys.

These circles are three essential orders of music notation, a fundament for learning 24 major and 24 minor keys, intervals, chords and sharps and flats appearance on the staff. There is no any other order in music notation.

You could replace on the circles each Do with C, Re with B, Mi with E etc. But it is hard to say the circles with Alphabet letters – harder to memorize them with your voice. Because to say  C D E F G A B C is easier then to say C B A G F E D C, but music sounds going up and down (back and forth all the time). Therefore to memorize on speech level Sol La Ti Do Re Mi Fa Sol Sol Fa Mi Re Do Ti La Sol is easier the G A B C D E F G G F E D C B A G.

If every child from 2-3 would be able to learn this patterns on at least speech level, he is prepared for life to become musically literate. Every sound, every song he would listen to would subconsciously translate into these syllables through his voice. And he will be able to transpose on the fly:

[musicrebel4u]

G'day Musicrebel4u,

I am not familiar with your method. I do understand the first picture, the second and third I am not quite sure using thirds and the fourths in your picture. How does it help the students understand the different keys?.

I used to learn from the music letter C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. I will use the number 1 to 7 to represent the from Do to TI. If the music is in G ( G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G) so the G is 1 A 2 etc..Lots of hymn books have the number written under the note for pianist to transpose to different keys. But I don't known how to apply your method.  My teacher used to say if I want to transpose to different key go up to semitone for practicing. I do believe that lots of classical piano students don't understand how to transpose, I have to rewrite the music on the paper, and  I really can't do it in my head.

Hellene, You have lost me too, with these circles! I would like to understand how they are used.

They are being learned on a speech level like a poem. Pretend that I am saying this in my voice with reach Russian accent:

Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do
Do Ti La Sol Fa Mi Re Do

Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do Re
Re Do Ti La Sol Fa Mi Re

Or

Do Mi Sol Ti Re Fa La Do
Do La Fa Re Ti Sol Mi Do

Mi Sol Ti Re Fa La Do Mi
Mi Do La Fa Re Ti Sol Mi

Or

Do Fa Ti Mi La Re Sol Do
Do Sol Re La Mi Ti Fa Do

I can do entire circle in 15-20 seconds.

Hellene, I still dont understand how they would know which notes must be played sharp or flat in keys other than DO. They would hear it is wrong and adjust once it was played, as in your videos, but how would they know before they try the keys? 

John, they first  sight read a lot of music with computer and see all these sharps and flats in front of their eyes. They get use to different keys by playing and singing. After that when we move from easier music score to more advanced, they ask and I answer all the  theory questions about sharps and flats.  Why in Sol major (G Major) we have fa sharp and in Fa major (F)- Ti flat
 

[johnk]

Hellene, i can see that the three circles encompass all possible intervals up and down, if learnt clockwise and anti. Number 1. does 2nds and 7ths, 2. does 3rds and 6ths and 3. does 4ths and 5ths. So is this how it is used: The student sees the interval and quickly can say do-so or whatever from the appropriate circle? Not sing, just say.

with reach Russian accent:

 

Its not so different from letters though. I teach students to say ABCDEFG and GFEDCBA. They learn EGBDF and FACE, so string these together and you get EGBDFACE. (I dont use the Every Good Boy stuff.) We could add the downwards way ECAFDBGE. The 4ths and 5ths are familiar already as the order of #s and bs: FCGDAEB and BEADGCF. I am not convinced that expanding these to do the exact equivalent of your solfa poems would be very difficult. There are so many english letter acronyms is everyday life, specially in computer age. IMHO, OTOH, ROFL, IYKWIM.

Obviously, I wont convince you, and maybe there are ways in which it doesnt work as well, but since you just speak, not sing these, I point out that it is not so different!

[musicrebel4u]

Hellene, i can see that the three circles encompass all possible intervals up and down, if learnt clockwise and anti. Number 1. does 2nds and 7ths, 2. does 3rds and 6ths and 3. does 4ths and 5ths. So is this how it is used: The student sees the interval and quickly can say do-so or whatever from the appropriate circle? Not sing, just say.

 

Its not so different from letters though. I teach students to say ABCDEFG and GFEDCBA. They learn EGBDF and FACE, so string these together and you get EGBDFACE. (I dont use the Every Good Boy stuff.) We could add the downwards way ECAFDBGE. The 4ths and 5ths are familiar already as the order of #s and bs: FCGDAEB and BEADGCF. I am not convinced that expanding these to do the exact equivalent of your solfa poems would be very difficult. There are so many english letter acronyms is everyday life, specially in computer age. IMHO, OTOH, ROFL, IYKWIM.

Obviously, I wont convince you, and maybe there are ways in which it doesnt work as well, but since you just speak, not sing these, I point out that it is not so different!

Agree!
Only the difference is: when they apply this to playing pieces, they sing it with Solfeggio and speech memory with exact pitch of piano keys helps to put voice into action. I checked with my students: when they are memorizing a piece and singing it with Solfeggio, they do it faster and easier, then with letters of alphabet.

[keypeg]

KeyPeg, I think the Twinkle song is sung normally, not in modes, just singing the different solfa syllables. Kids would not be able to sing a familiar song in a strange-sounding mode. They would just know to sing it higher if it starts on RE etc.

JohnK, it is indeed sung in modes, because M4U has just said so.  I am certain because when she first posted the variations I quoted, and I sang them as they were written, they came out modally.  And this time if you read her first post in this thread on the subject a few posts above mine, you will see the word "mode".

And because of my unusual background I believe that a child can sing in modes.  The reason I say that is because I remained a musical illiterate all my life with one exception: When I was about 8 years old we were taught solfege back in the 1960's using a vertical chart, and the teacher used a pointer for us to sing whatever pattern he would point at.  This became my one and only musical reference.  I played with those syllables that were in my head as though they were invisible building blocks.  I used to do the kind of thing at age 8 or 9 that Hellene has described while cleaning my room or going for walks the way somebody might doodle pictures.

How can I describe my perception?  THe solfege syllables were like a ladder with two unevenly spaced rungs (mi fa, ti do) and you could hope from rung to rung.  That ladder could slide on top of the gamut of pitches (ha! now I know how apt the word gamma-ut is!  ) and I seldom got lost musically.  The world of pitches which is the primary reference point for almost everyone was a totally foreign world to me.  I'm in my 50's, and I have only begun catching up recently.  I span both worlds, but as a learner.

[keypeg]

Ah, I see I was wrong.  However, you wrote this:

There are 7 modesand children memorize them pretty fast.

Did you mean, then, that there are 7 keys for the sharps, 7 keys for the flats, so 14, but since they have names starting with A B C D E F G which are do re mi fa sol la ti, there are in fact only 7?  For my own education, are these called modes?

I thought that mode meant the arrangement of intervals: for example the major diatonic scale, the Dorian, Phyrygian etc. each have a different place where semitones or tones are spaced, and these are called those particular modes regardless of what note (pitch) they start on.

[keypeg]

I see the two circles as being the pattern of thirds and fourths respectively, and if I say them I end up at the first and so can go through them endlessly.  I, too, can do them rapidly but my mind remains in movable do solfege since this has been my thinking for 40 years.  Currently I could have that pattern in my head and superimpose the ABC's over them and follow the pattern rapidly (I just tried) simply because that is how I was taught recently.  Were I to begin I would want to have both pitch and pattern come together under one name.  After all, that's what I was taught: to think of both - why not have one name?

I understand solmization as presented here as follows:
1. The principle has nothing to do with movable do or the intervals of the diatonic scale.
2.  The principle is that the human mind retains meaningful words such as the image of "door" and "mirror" more readily than abstract symbols.  Moreover, ABC is already reserved in a very abstract way as alphabet symbols for learning to write words.  Thus the "meaningful" door, ray, mirror, f(??), salt, ladder, tea are impregnated into the mind much more strongly than A, B, C would be.  That strong impression then combines with the pitch sounds one hears.  (I'm not certain about that since you practise saying them."

Might I surmise that memorizing "do re mi fa so" is just as abstract as A B C D E without the symbols?

3.  The weakness of A B C is in the pronunciation and how that affects pitch and singing.  All the solfege symbols end in a vowel. "efff" (F) doesn't so it's a forced staccato right there.

So that would be the reason for choosing those symbols.  Do I understand that correctly?

I can understand the reason for speaking the patterns in the circles.  Earlier this year I learned that I should be able to recite the alphabet names backward and tried practising it.  I did it as a spoken exercise, and this would be the same thing.

I also see the role of these patterns, being able to jump along them since that is what music does - you can orient quickly.

As a side note, I remember when my teacher introduced the dominant seventh as a broken chord.  He suddenly went off on a tangent and showed that these notes go along the scale in the same interval forever and ever and ever without ever changing pitch or interval.  The same is not true for a major chord which goes CEGCEGCEG etc. because there are two thirds followed by a fourth.  But the seventh chord follows the pattern of the circle going "do mi so ti re fa la do" .... which I'm doing in my head as I write.

So you are laying down a pattern which becomes incorporated in the young minds and later is the base for more theoretical things.  Is that correct?

[johnk]

Keypeg wrote:

Ah, I see I was wrong.  However, you wrote this:

Quote
There are 7 modesand children memorize them pretty fast.

Did you mean, then, that there are 7 keys for the sharps, 7 keys for the flats, so 14, but since they have names starting with A B C D E F G which are do re mi fa sol la ti, there are in fact only 7?  For my own education, are these called modes?

I thought that mode meant the arrangement of intervals: for example the major diatonic scale, the Dorian, Phyrygian etc. each have a different place where semitones or tones are spaced, and these are called those particular modes regardless of what note (pitch) they start on.

I am pretty sure it was not me that said this. I dont teach kids modes. You are correct as to what modes are, but I was aware that Hellene may have used the term in a different sense. More like 7 singing tables. For Twinkle could have its tonic as any of the 7 solfa syllables.

I understand your experience with relative solfa being like a ladder which slides over the gamut of absolute pitches. I literally use this approch with my "Degree Card" on the keyboard and notation written with moveable solfa syllables in the noteheads. This strand is relatively new in my teaching, but is showing very promising results for gaining the experience of the various keys and their signatures or keyboard patterns. With this I can introduce any keysignature to a younger child, who gains the kind of sense of key that Hellene was alluding to, but over a shorter time frame I would expect.

[johnk]

As a side note, I remember when my teacher introduced the dominant seventh as a broken chord.  He suddenly went off on a tangent and showed that these notes go along the scale in the same interval forever and ever and ever without ever changing pitch or interval.  The same is not true for a major chord which goes CEGCEGCEG etc. because there are two thirds followed by a fourth.  But the seventh chord follows the pattern of the circle going "do mi so ti re fa la do" .... which I'm doing in my head as I write.

So you are laying down a pattern which becomes incorporated in the young minds and later is the base for more theoretical things.  Is that correct?

The dominant 7th is [soh te ray fah]. No more! It does not repeat with the same intervals. Maybe you were thinking of the diminished 7th made of all minor 3rds.

[dora96]

Can someone tell me using sofeggio like Hellen's method?

How to transpose the song John posted (No one but me D major) into G major using the sofeggio.

No one but me in the Sofeggion will be

re re re , fa re la
re re re , fa ra mi
re re re, fa ra la
do re do sol fa mi re

When I read from the music note I know what it is? But if I don't have written music in  G key how do I work it out?

How do I immediately transpose the sofeggio in G major or even in A major ??

I am really confused. Do you know how to do John ??

[keypeg]

No one but me in the Sofeggion will be

re re re , fa re la
re re re , fa ra mi
re re re, fa ra la
do re do sol fa mi re

When I read from the music note I know what it is? But if I don't have written music in  G key how do I work it out?

How do I immediately transpose the sofeggio in G major or even in A major ??

The last line in "re major" would be "la ti la so fa mi re"

I recognize the melody as something I sang as a child called "Here we go loop di loo" and I did it orally in my head.

In G (sol) major it would be:

1 so so so ti so re
2 so so so to so la (repeat 1)
3 re mi re do ti la so.

How?  Intervals.  It's easier to see in C major (less foreign)

do do do mi do so
= The three do's are unisons.  Your next note goes up a major third.  You can hear that major third when you sing it.  Three notes up from do are "mi".
The next note goes back down a third to the starting note, so you have the "do".
The next note is up a fifth, so you have "so".  OR you can see the last note as being a third up from the "mi" that you sang/played before.

That is how I worked out the first line.  Except it came instantly and automatically to me while typing at the computer, nothing written in hand, just memory of the melody.

If you go to Hellene's circles (new to me) you will see that one of the circles goes in thirds, and one goes in fourths.   
To visit the one in thirds (I'm doing this in my head) the kids will have memorized:
do mi so ti re fa la .... after which it repeats .... and backward.

So you get to something like John's song which goes up and down in thirds and fifths (two thirds in succession), you draw mentally on these memorized thirds.

Supposing that your song has started on "re" and it goes up a third.  You have memorized "re fa la do... " etc. so you know your next note, which is a third up, is "fa".  If you have that already, then singing the music as solfege syllables is a breeze, as long as you can recognize basic intervals.

Actually I can see that those three circles hold everything.  The first circle has the interval of seconds.  The second circle has intervals of thirds, which naturally also include the 5th and the 7th.  You can't get at an interval of a fourth with the seonc circle, but you can with the third circle which contains fourths.  Voila, all possible intervals at the tip of your tongue.

I am curious now how it happened that I had solfege in that primary grade in the 1960's because it was not part of the curriculum.  Could it be that this particular teacher just happened to want to teach it?  What she did basically was to drill us in patterns of thirds, fourths, fifths going up and down by pointing at the syllables which we sang as she pointed.  That is why what has been presented makes instant sense to me.

[keypeg]

The dominant 7th is [soh te ray fah]. No more! It does not repeat with the same intervals. Maybe you were thinking of the diminished 7th made of all minor 3rds.

You are right.  The explanation was definitely in regards to the dominant seventh, because that is what I learned to play, but I think the idea was a generic third: the fact that sevenths went up a third continually and ended up repeating the same note name.  But only a seventh chord made up completely of minor chords with have the exact intervals repeating.

[johnk]

Thanks Keypeg for helping Dora. I think Hellene would agree this is how they do it.

However, with my own system, I just move the degree card into G major (Doh =G) and sing the same original syllables. The degree card orients my visualisation of the keyboard into G major. The Yellow section (degrees 1 to 5) is often the hand placement or 5 finger position. This song goes up to lah, the 6th degree, and thus needs to change out of the 5 finger pos at the end.

By singing lots of songs in moveable doh, kids get very familiar with the sound of each degree of the scale, and the various intervals between them. They can hear a melody and sing what they think are the syllables. Then they could play it, with the Degree Card helping by showing the pattern of black and white keys for whatever key you want them to play it in.

They could also sight-sing from the solfa syllables, and later without the syllables. We later colour in the noteheads to hide the solfa letter for the filled-in note values. Once the keynote doh is located, they can reckon the degrees quickly by intervals from the keynote or in reference to the tonic triad.

[keypeg]

That sounds interesting, John.  I have a feeling that you have illustrated some of these things in other posts since you are trying to get your system to be known.  Any links?  Are the kids able to do this in their heads eventually, the way I was able to last night?  I.e. woud they eventually be able to hear a melody in their heads, and at will sing that melody starting on any note and sing it correctly either using letter names, or fixed or movable do?

I have to say that while I am able to transpose music sound-wise thinking in movable do, once I learned transposition the conventional manner, which is to change the key signature and then tell myself that this melody is moving up three notes and then counting each note up three, this became the method I want to use.  It is mecahnical but avoids mistakes.  Then I can go back to audiation and check that it still sounds right as a way of double checking the transposition.  I wouldn't need a piano for that. (Prefered software: good quality pencil)

[johnk]

I am not 100% sure, but I dont think I have posted anything of my moveable doh method/strand here on PianoStreet. The sheet music is fairly new, as i only designed the notehead font with the solfa letters inside quite recently. I have been using the 'degree card' for decades, but I think adding the notation that goes with it is going to make the system much stronger.

The kids see the symbol for soh in the notehead, they hear the sound of this 5th degree, and it sounds like every other soh they have ever heared, not in absolute pitch, but as the 5th of a key. They then see the keyboard orientation easily in whatever key the degree card has been placed. So there is a double advantage - not only the ear work, but learning to look at the keyboard in specific tonalities. I can "look at the piano" in the key of A or B or G or even in K or L! (This is because in terms of the keyboard, there is nothing to specify F# rather than Gb. ie I dont want to 'force' traditional notation terminology onto the keyboard.)

[keypeg]

It would be interesting to see such a degree card.  It sounds like you are working with movable do.

[johnk]

Yes, similar to your childhood experience.

However I use doh minor (instead of lah minor) usually.

And i made up new names for the chromatic degrees. This is so that each degree can be written with just its initial letter.

[keypeg]

I've been staring at this for a while trying to figure out what was bothering me.  Now I know what it is.  You have placed the dividing line between mi and fa at the crack where the white key (E) starts.  Your scale starts on C# major/Db minor and goes along the black keys.  I would want to shove that mi/fa line to the right of the black key exactly where the black key ends and the white key begins.  That is more realistic for seeing the semitone if it is ok to give that feedback.  The way you have it now almost looks as though the black key were designated for "fa" when that line representes the divide between two white keys because of the way piano keys are constructed.  But further back the white key is narrower, and that narrowness actually "looks" like a semitone.

When you have the numbers, I tend to associate fingers with the intervals of a scale.  Do I want to do that?  Or do I want to know that I can play that mi fa with any fingers and the semitone will always exist in that location.

[johnk]

On the degree card the 'notes' are the thick and thin lines, like the rungs of a ladder, not the spaces between. Each degree very accurately points down to the middle of the back of the piano key, whether black of white.

[keypeg]

I see my mistake now.  I thought I remembered you writing elsewhere that you taught the scale on the black keys, and there was reasoning behind that so I was seeing it that way.  I must have remembered wrong.  But this is a scale starting on F, a white key, with Bb as the black.  Now it makes sense. 

[johnk]

To be honest, I didnt understand your description.

You have placed the dividing line between mi and fa at the crack where the white key (E) starts.  Your scale starts on C# major/Db minor and

No picture is of C#/Db major or minor! The two latest pictures show the degree card in the key of F. The 1st degree doh is the leftmost line (thick) on the card. It sits exactly on F. The 2nd degree ray (thin line) points down onto G. The major 3rd (me) shows A, whereas the minor 3rd (naw) shows Ab. etc

The yellow part of the card is from doh up to soh.
Doh, me and soh are the thick lines.

They are like frets on a guitar. Or like the front of of your finger position on the violin fingerboard.

I didnt understand "dividing line between me and fah" There is a dividing line between keys on the piano, but on the degreecard thare are only 'spaces' representing either a tone or semitone between successive degrees.

When i first introduce the card to kids, they point to the degrees with the card held vertically. If they seem to be pointing to the spaces between the lines, I say "no, point to the lines, like the rungs of a ladder." We always sing and point (copycat fashion) to the vertical card for weeks before the revelation that it can be placed on the keys.

[keypeg]

Well, you have to give me M for memory.  I remembered the C#/Db minor and tried to see that in the illustration.     Note to self: pay attention to what the teacher says and not what you think he said.    Yes, I can see now how it shows the patterns which on a keyboard by itself are not all that clear.

[johnk]

Thanks, and phew, I was starting to get paranoid.

Interesting that you say the degreecard shows patterns that are not as clear on the keyboard by itself. This is because looking at a keyboard, we tend to see the white keys at the front, instead of the evenly spaced chromatic scale at the back.

When kids actually play the pieces on the keys with the degreecard there, I think yet another level of understanding occurs, the tactual.

[keypeg]

Thanks, and phew, I was starting to get paranoid.

Interesting that you say the degreecard shows patterns that are not as clear on the keyboard by itself. This is because looking at a keyboard, we tend to see the white keys at the front, instead of the evenly spaced chromatic scale at the back.

When kids actually play the pieces on the keys with the degreecard there, I think yet another level of understanding occurs, the tactual.

Sorry!

Yes, you are right, if you look at the keyboard when you play (I don't) the configuration of the keys is misleading.  All the white keys are at the same distance, so D and E are the same distance at the front as E and F, and the distance the fingers are apart is also equal.  Yet the first goes twice the distance in pitch than the second, tone vs. semitone.  But the tone tone semitone does become visible on your card.  So I take it you slide that card over to cover any key, and they will see that it is always the same pattern, as well as hearing that it's always the same pattern?

[musicrebel4u]

Yes, similar to your childhood experience.

However I use doh minor (instead of lah minor) usually.

And i made up new names for the chromatic degrees. This is so that each degree can be written with just its initial letter.

These degree cards are excellent idea!
When I will come to the point with my students to explain them step step half step step step step half step etc may I use them?

[johnk]

So I take it you slide that card over to cover any key, and they will see that it is always the same pattern, as well as hearing that it's always the same pattern?

Yes!!

These degree cards are excellent idea!
When I will come to the point with my students to explain them step step half step step step step half step etc may I use them?

Thanks!!

And yes, but please note they are copyright to me, so you cannot manufacture and sell the design.

Also, did you realise the minor is just the major placed upside down?

[keypeg]

Also, did you realise the minor is just the major placed upside down?

Do you mean like major third CE => minor sixth EC, minor second EF => major seventh FE ?  Or something different?

[johnk]

No, turn the degree card upside down and replace it on the keyboard in the same key. It becomes the minor scale. This is why there are no labels on the actual card. The doh of the major becomes the soh of the minor, and the major 3rd from 1 to 3 becomes the major 3rd from 3 to 5.

[keypeg]

Yes, I see it now.  You are using the first five notes, then jump up to the tonic and play them again an octave higher.  So while the major scale starts "tone tone semitone tone" the minor scale starts "tone semitone tone tone" which is the reverse.  That is interesting.

[musicrebel4u]

Yes!!

Thanks!!

And yes, but please note they are copyright to me, so you cannot manufacture and sell the design.

Also, did you realise the minor is just the major placed upside down?

Yes, I did!
BTW, do you sell them? I would be happy to buy it from you and reffer my students

[johnk]

It wouldnt be economical to sell them one by one. Do you want to buy, say 20 for $50? They are good quality laminated card. There would be a postage charge as well, but it may be compensated by the exchange rate from Australia.

How would you name the degrees though???

[keypeg]

Are the names already on the card?

[johnk]

No, nothing is written on the cards except the copyright note. See scanned image, back and front. (The back is used as a step towards playing without the card.)

[musicrebel4u]

It wouldnt be economical to sell them one by one. Do you want to buy, say 20 for $50? They are good quality laminated card. There would be a postage charge as well, but it may be compensated by the exchange rate from Australia.

John, I would like to order my copy (don't mind to pay fpr shipping) and try to test it on my students first, 'to play with it. I'll give you my address and you'll tell me what to do next.

How would you name the degrees though???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_(music)

[nia_kurniati]

To : musicrebel4u

I am sorry but I kind a lost too since the begginning. So is it like this :
For singing twinkle2 little star :
in Do = C we sing do do sol sol la la sol
and if in Do = G we still singing do do sol sol la la sol but with higher sound?

Is that your teaching? Thanks.

[johnk]

NO! This is John Keller here, from Australia. I would sing as you say, the same doh doh soh  soh no matter what key. But musicrebel would sing differnt in G to in C.

Her system is to ALWAYS call C = doh and G = soh.

Singing Twinkle in G, she would sing: sol sol re re etc.

But I sing do do so so.

Understand?

[nia_kurniati]

Oke thanks, now I am going to continue the rest of the lesson 
But this one is the opposite of my pop teacher teach me. I have bad hearing. I learn classic for years and for the last 6 months taking piano non classic lesson. Its really hard to learn pitch, solfegio, hearing, etc etc

[keypeg]

Musicrebel's system is called "fixed do".  You treat the notes as if they were ABC, except that you call the pitch names "do re me".  Therefore the first note in Twinkle in 'fixed do' in G major is called "sol" because that is the pitch name.

The reason that sol is used as pitch name, is the theory that concrete things are easier to remember than abstract things.  "G" is abstract, and "sol" is not.  Well, in fact "do re mi" is just as abtract as C D E - but not if you fix imagery to it.  Therefore in M4U's system there are concrete images.  "sol" is a salt shaker (salt) "do" is a door.  So the kids are seeing Twinkle in G as "salt salt ray ray mirror mirror ray - door door tea tea ladder ladder salt."  The images flit by your eyes as you sing it.  (I tried the system and can't get the salt shakers and doors and mirrors out of my head  )

The other reason for choosing solfege syllables even when doing pitch names is because they are pronounced more easily than, for example "eff" (F).  The syllables were not designed for that reason, however.  They just happen to be the first syllable of Latin words to a particular hymn that musicologist Guido d'Arezzi used as a memnonic when trying to establish the modern notation system.  Half of Europe ended up with ABC's, and the other half ended up with do re mi's.

So that is the theoretical reasoning behind M4U's choices, which is also the way reading and notation are taught in one aprt of the world.

-------------
John's system is called "movable do solfege".  It is probably what you are learning.  This system was invented in one school in England to address choral singing.  It fixates in particular on the intervalic relationship in the major and minor scales, and the fact that these relationships are always the same.  Additionally, pitches on instruments other than keyboards and fretted instruments are adjustable.  The interval between the 3rd & 4th degree (mi fa) is closer than a semitone, ditto for 7 & 8 (ti do) and this creates a sense of movement and location.  They are the flavours of the intervals within a scale.  Thus, by fixating on the structure of the major scale in and of itself the singers could also connect with these flavours or characteristics regardless of the key in which they were singing.

This invented system of the one school then spread through England and other parts of the world, and was adapted by such people as Kodaly who added hand signals and other thigns.

In this system the first degree of the major scale is always "do".  So in Twinkle in C major, the first note is "do".  In G major it is still "do".

This is the system that JohnK represents.

(phew!)

[johnk]

Explained beautifully, Keypeg!

A few extra bits and pieces: In the relative solfa system, there seem to be two different systems of names  for the chromatic degrees. But I didnt like either of them so I have made up my own names.

My terminology is : do# = reb = 'Zaw', re# = meb = 'Naw', fa# = sob = 'Ve', so# = lab = 'Yaw', la# = teb = 'Paw'. My logic was to have a differnt letter for each of the 12 chromatic degrees, so I can jot down melodies with single letters.

I tend to think of the minor scale as doh minor, d r n f s y t d, rather than lah minor, l t d r m f y l. the reasoning here is that the tonic is always d, the 5th is always  s, etc. However, for songs that use a half key-circle chord progression, such as "I Will Survive", and many others, (ie they constantly modulate between minor and relative major), it is useful to think of lah minor as being a mode of the 'mother key' of doh.

Cheers, John

[keypeg]

Having lived movable do solfege my entire life as the only musical reference that I had, I'm afraid that I do not like calling the tonic of the minor "do".  The reason is that movable do solfege actually contains the essence of the old modes, and their spirit.  In a sense I am a throwback of that time period and my first musical thinking is Medieaval.     It used to be, until I learned "modern" a few years ago, that when I heard music, my mind would hear a certain tonic and my mind would say "aha, that's a "la" "  Instantly I was inside minor mode and oriented myself that way.

I believe that movable do solfege brings us back into the modal thinking, and in a sense a minor key is a minor mode (only in a sense)  When you make the tonic of a minor key "do" you break that connection.  You have one foot in the modern pitch-related system, and another foot in solfege, and you are not anywhere.  The tonic minor in movable do has to be la because essentially you're working within two modes: Aeolian (modified into the various minor keys) and Ionian.  Modal thinking is different than pitch thinking.  The idea of relativity is not precisely the same in its character.