Where all our teaching troubles came from?

[musicrebel4u]

Here is some article, that explain why music teachers today are having low income, a lot of stress and great results only with prodigies.

www.ugatu.ac.ru/~trushin/SM/IMG4/SoundsImportant2eng.htm

[keypeg]

What strikes me in all these discussions about reading music in the piano forums, is that it is always from vision to vision.  You see the notes on the page. You see the horizontal keyboard.  You try to connect these two visual elements.  One way or the other, that is what I am reading everywhere in some version.  Visual to visual.

That is not how I learned.   Was I actually lucky that I did not have lessons?  Where is sound in all of this?  You hear sound - you can write it into the music.  The sounds go up and down.  The music goes up and down.  The written goes up and down, and you hear the music going up and down.

You hear the music going up and down, and you find the same up in the direction "right", and the down in the direction "left" on the keyboard (or violin).  You associate the pitch directly with the keyboard.  You hear the pitch and your hand and fingers move in the direction of the sound.  The sound is the connector.

Now you look at the written music and you hear the sounds becoming more shrill or more growly (I'm trying not to use direction words like up and down).  You reach for that sound on the piano and there it is.  Nothing visual.  You go toward the sound.  There is no confusion between left and right, up and down, because you are not going from visual to visual.  You are going from visual to sound to ... touch?  You reach for the sound.

This is how I experienced the piano and written music.  Does sound not have a role?

What I think I am understanding is this: You see the music, you try to match the music that you see with the keyboard you see.  You try to match one visual pattern with another visual pattern.  You go from vertical to horizonal.  Then, out of the one visual act (sheet music) and the other visual act (keyboard) you produce a sound, and then you get to hear what that sound is.  That is different from my experience, where sound is both the bridge and the goal.

MusicalRebel4U - is there any such role of sound in your method?

[musicrebel4u]

What strikes me in all these discussions about reading music in the piano forums, is that it is always from vision to vision.  You see the notes on the page. You see the horizontal keyboard.  You try to connect these two visual elements.  One way or the other, that is what I am reading everywhere in some version.  Visual to visual.

That is not how I learned.   Was I actually lucky that I did not have lessons?  Where is sound in all of this?  You hear sound - you can write it into the music.  The sounds go up and down.  The music goes up and down.  The written goes up and down, and you hear the music going up and down.

You hear the music going up and down, and you find the same up in the direction "right", and the down in the direction "left" on the keyboard (or violin).  You associate the pitch directly with the keyboard.  You hear the pitch and your hand and fingers move in the direction of the sound.  The sound is the connector.

Now you look at the written music and you hear the sounds becoming more shrill or more growly (I'm trying not to use direction words like up and down).  You reach for that sound on the piano and there it is.  Nothing visual.  You go toward the sound.  There is no confusion between left and right, up and down, because you are not going from visual to visual.  You are going from visual to sound to ... touch?  You reach for the sound.

This is how I experienced the piano and written music.  Does sound not have a role?

What I think I am understanding is this: You see the music, you try to match the music that you see with the keyboard you see.  You try to match one visual pattern with another visual pattern.  You go from vertical to horizonal.  Then, out of the one visual act (sheet music) and the other visual act (keyboard) you produce a sound, and then you get to hear what that sound is.  That is different from my experience, where sound is both the bridge and the goal.

MusicalRebel4U - is there any such role of sound in your method?

Absolutely!
I am just pressing the main obstacle in reading - confusion between so many lines and spaces + coordination problems. These obstacles take too much place in beginner's mind and staying on the way to comprehend music as a language itself.

Any child receives plenty of music information and start receiving it in his/her mother's womb. The same is with rhythm. Any fetus grew up inside of the mother's body with heartbeat.

This is why by removing visual/coordination problems from the very beginning we let beginners to rely on music information that already been collected previously and imprinted in their cortex. Many people think that I place only prodigies on my videos. The matter or fact is: they are average people. Only difference is: I gave them opportunity to find a point of support in their music experience and built their skills not from scratch, but from their imprinted knowledge. 

[counterpoint]

The sounds go up and down.  The music goes up and down.  The written goes up and down, and you hear the music going up and down.

Bravo! That's the point! You seem to be right: you're lucky not to have been taught all these "pedagogical" tricks how to make note reading "easy". It is not needed to be made easy - it is easy 

I had piano lessons since I was ten, but I never was taught "note reading". I just learned it by playing.

[musicrebel4u]

Bravo! That's the point! You seem to be right: you're lucky not to have been taught all these "pedagogical" tricks how to make note reading "easy". It is not needed to be made easy - it is easy 

I had piano lessons since I was ten, but I never was taught "note reading". I just learned it by playing.

Good for you (for me, too, because I graduated music school, college and university with honor) 

In Middle Ages there were people like you and I and they also were pretty successful in learning how to read using Bible as a text book.

What is it suppose to do with the rest of population? Let's leave them all behind?

Another question: one voice goes up and down - that's true. But music language had been developed into multiple voices since time when Gvido from Arezzo created the Staff. So, some voices are going up and some going down at the same time. As you see, it is not as simple as it looks like 

[pianochick93]

But if someone puts enough work in, reading notes is not hard at all.
I took a break from piano playing for about 5 years, and I was young, so I forgot all I had previously learnt. I decided one day to go back to it, i could remember any of the notes, but I just got my old prelim grade theory book out, and used that. I taught myself to read the music in about a week, fluency only came with experience, but I knew what the notes were.

[counterpoint]

What is it suppose to do with the rest of population? Let's leave them all behind?

As I wrote in an other thread, kids will only learn what they want to learn. And if they want to learn, you don't need elaborated tricks.

So for me the question is: why do we need tricks?

If kids want to play computergames: aren't there better, more interesting computergames than programs to read music notation? 

If kids want to make music: is it needed to make a roundabout where a computer and a midikeyboard with bad sound is needed?

I just don't like the idea, that learning music is connected so much with computers and keyboards. Where is the freedom of making music when there is always a ticking time bomb in the background? 

[pianochick93]

Counterpoint, i feel the same way.

As a child, I wanted to learn music, but I got bored. I think that if I had've been using a computer, I would've gotten bored much sooner, as there was no real interaction with a teacher.

As it is, I gave up piano when I was 8, but when I started high school, I got annoyed that everyone was better than me, and the only instrument I played was recorder, and piano (badly), so I took up piano again. This time I want to learn, and I am progressing much faster.

Today a music teacher showed me a program, called Band in a Box. 'Basically' he said, 'You just had to type in a chord name (C7, Dmin, etc) and select a style, and the program would improvise on that chord, in the style that you chose.'
I sat there saying, 'Why, why use a computer program, when you can get that chord on a piano or a guitar, and play around with it yourself. Much more fun, and you learn a lot more while doing it'

Personally I am old fashioned when it comes to music, I believe that composing should be done at the instrument, or away from the instrument, if your ear is good enough to tell what you are writing sounds like, but definitely not at the computer. In my eyes that is cheating. Sure, use the computer to notate it, for legibility and easy printing, but to compose, I wouldn't go near it.

[musicrebel4u]

But if someone puts enough work in, reading notes is not hard at all.
I took a break from piano playing for about 5 years, and I was young, so I forgot all I had previously learnt. I decided one day to go back to it, i could remember any of the notes, but I just got my old prelim grade theory book out, and used that. I taught myself to read the music in about a week, fluency only came with experience, but I knew what the notes were.

Ditto! Good for YOU. Keep up you great work!

[musicrebel4u]

As I wrote in an other thread, kids will only learn what they want to learn. And if they want to learn, you don't need elaborated tricks.

I have to disagree: kids want to learn when they CAN.

So for me the question is: why do we need tricks?

We need to know their limitations and cognitive abilities. 'Tricks' are for gimmicks.

If kids want to play computergames: aren't there better, more interesting computergames than programs to read music notation? 

Music language itself went through huge evolutional process. Today music notation is rather a 'map' for spaceship – not one line writing.  Why we train our pilots with 'flight stimulators'?

If kids want to make music: is it needed to make a roundabout where a computer and a midikeyboard with bad sound is needed?

It is not enough just to 'want' to make music. Imagine that illiterate person would 'want to make a literature'. Digital keyboards or pianos connected to computers are essential part to build skills to read many musical pieces, to develop music mind and coordination interactively. <b>INTERACTIVITY<b> is the essential point of learning language.

I just don't like the idea, that learning music is connected so much with computers and keyboards. Where is the freedom of making music when there is always a ticking time bomb in the background? 

Person, who can't fluently read any language and have no coordination to speak it  is not having any freedom. If time bomb is ticking – it is another bomb – bomb of millions of musically illiterate people with a lot of spare time to take weapons and kill others to entertain themselves.

As a classically trained musician with 16 years of strict education, Master degree, several winners of competitions I also was looking down on technology as teaching tool for music. Today, after 7 years of teaching only with 'Soft Mozart' I testify: music evolution made a long way and now it is time to make music-teaching evolution. Technology – is only solution for that purpose

[pianochick93]

Person, who can't fluently read any language and have no coordination to speak it  is not having any freedom. If time bomb is ticking – it is another bomb – bomb of millions of musically illiterate people with a lot of spare time to take weapons and kill others to entertain themselves.

Often these musicaly illiterate people, simply don't want to learn music. I know many people that play guitar or drums or sing, yet they are still musically illiterate. They could be if they wanted to, but they just don't have any interest in it.

Also I'm sure musical people can get pretty violent, it isn't just the musically illiterate that cause wars and violence.

[dan101]

Informative article. I first heard this argument of 'vertical vs. horizontal reading' about three years ago. Although I see the point of your link article, I think that reading horizontally can obviously be taught effectively with a little imagination and innovation. Patience and humour help as well.

Thanks for the interesting read, though.

[musicrebel4u]

Often these musicaly illiterate people, simply don't want to learn music. I know many people that play guitar or drums or sing, yet they are still musically illiterate. They could be if they wanted to, but they just don't have any interest in it.

Also I'm sure musical people can get pretty violent, it isn't just the musically illiterate that cause wars and violence.

It is a proven fact that musically literate people have higher intellect and more balanced hemispheres of their brain, playing piano building more neurological pass ways in corpus callosum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_callosum. If there are no many such pass ways, the communication between logical and emotional hemispheres is slow and as a result we have cold-blooded killers or people with depression. In order to balance humans emotions and logic we have to make music literacy part of everybody's life.

The illiterate musicians – is a result of non-working approach of teaching music literacy to the masses. In Middle Ages, when we couldn't teach masses to read, also were many illiterate poets and song makers. In music education of 21st century we are at the same stage.

[musicrebel4u]

Informative article. I first heard this argument of 'vertical vs. horizontal reading' about three years ago. Although I see the point of your link article, I think that reading horizontally can obviously be taught effectively with a little imagination and innovation. Patience and humour help as well.

Thanks for the interesting read, though.

You are very welcome!

Also I have to say that I admire your optimism and creative approach to teaching music, but unfortunately our eyesight, ability to focus and coordination have certain limitations, which you can't overcome with humor or imagination. It works for selected few people with inborn talents, but fails the rest of population.

I think, today is the right time to turn our attention to physiology of building skills and psychology of human's perception. Without this essential basic education our 'innovations in classrooms' is nothing better then attempts of alchemists to create gold.   

[pianochick93]

It is a proven fact that musically literate people have higher intellect and more balanced hemispheres of their brain,

Yes, but that is on average. It doesn't necesarily mean that all non-musically inclined people have a lower intellect and a screwed up brain.
I know plenty of non-musical people who are very intelligent, and have both sides of the brains equally balanced, i.e they use the right (creative) side of their brain for art, story writing, and many other things.

In order to balance humans emotions and logic we have to make music literacy part of everybody's life.

If you try and make people musically literate, who don't want to be, you are going to get a lot more violence and disagreement than if you just let those who would like to be musicians drift towards their path in their own time.

[musicrebel4u]

Yes, but that is on average. It doesn't necesarily mean that all non-musically inclined people have a lower intellect and a screwed up brain.
I know plenty of non-musical people who are very intelligent, and have both sides of the brains equally balanced, i.e they use the right (creative) side of their brain for art, story writing, and many other things.
If you try and make people musically literate, who don't want to be, you are going to get a lot more violence and disagreement than if you just let those who would like to be musicians drift towards their path in their own time.

Dear Pianochick,

I ask you to look outside of the box.
Please, imagine for a minute that people would be able to read music score like they read books.
Abstract yourself from your current experience.
What do you think it would add to our society?

[pianochick93]

Dear Pianochick,

I ask you to look outside of the box.
Please, imagine for a minute that people would be able to read music score like they read books.
Abstract yourself from your current experience.
What do you think it would add to our society?

A lot more musicians.
But what if there were someone who couldn't read music out of all that bunch. They would be ostracised. Now an ability to read music is considered a gift, and while everyone could learn it if they put their mind to it, not all of them would want that gift.
Musicians have almost always been treated with respect for their talent, if everyone had that talent, there would be so much less respect, more jealousy, and more competition  in general.

[counterpoint]

Now an ability to read music is considered a gift, and while everyone could learn it if they put their mind to it, not all of them would want that gift.

And we should not confuse the ability to read music with "musicality". 

[musicrebel4u]

Thank you! Great!
And now let's apply your description to our history of learning literacy, because ( as we all already know) couple of centuries ago not every man was literate and literacy was considered as an exceptional gift.
Thus…

A lot more musicians.

True. After spreading the literacy we received a lot more writers. We don't read only classical literature of 18-19 centuries. We got plenty of graphorrhea, but literate readers can understand what's worth attention and what's not

But what if there were someone who couldn't read music out of all that bunch. They would be ostracised.

Have we ostracized kids with special needs today, who have difficulties reading? No! We try to understand what is the problem and how to deal with it. We try to understand whether this is an ADD or dyslexia or other problem. Most of the time with special and professional help such children learn how to read successfully. 

Now an ability to read music is considered a gift, and while everyone could learn it if they put their mind to it, not all of them would want that gift.

Yes! Pride! This is the main motto of music education today! I use to remind people a very interesting fact of Christianity. It was a Fallen Angel (you know who). Before he falls, he used to be a Heaven's choir conductor. Now we consider ability to read music a gift, treat our prodigies like trophies, put gifted and talented above others. We use to say that being musically literate is a God's given gift, but forget about one thing: God is much more generous then we used to think of Him. So, He gave this gift to everyone and everyone needs it! This gift would make someone better professional musician – somebody would become better listener. I never met a person who would in a right state of mind say: 'I can read books, but I don't want to have this 'gift''

Musicians have almost always been treated with respect for their talent, if everyone had that talent, there would be so much less respect, more jealousy, and more competition  in general

Do you have your favorite writers and have jealousy toward them? Is your ability to read books brought less respect to actors in plays or movies?  Yes, maybe among the writers or actors there is a competition, but we are – literate readers and viewers just benefit from it!

For several years I was a Director of music in one private school. I convinced the parents and administration of the school to buy 20 keyboards and instead of teaching kids about music I taught them how to play. ALL OF THEM. Amazing picture I had seen couple of months later! Kids loved to sit around our acoustic piano and listen to each other. We had a boy who was a real prodigy. Once (before Christmas) I gave him a piece from 'Nutcracker' and he played it for everyone. Kids got so excited! They asked him to play this piece again and again and again. Eventually, he learned the entire suite and others started to study their pieces with more enthusiasm.

Later we played couple of compositions all together. Here is a video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvGj7XFrSCc

This is exactly what is going to happen, when all the people would be musically literate and much more great things are going to happen.

[keypeg]

Have we ostracized kids with special needs today, who have difficulties reading? No! We try to understand what is the problem and how to deal with it. We try to understand whether this is an ADD or dyslexia or other problem. Most of the time with special and professional help such children learn how to read successfully

Actually, since I have worked in this area in private tutoring, the problems with reading are often caused by the way it is taught.  Dyslexia does exist as does aphasia.  There is a difficulty in perceiving and representing space visually, and also in putting things in order: 1st, 2nd, 3rd.  If different senses are used, it can help.  Many "disabled" students actually have very quick minds that see everything at once globally, and it is only the manner in which things are presented that creates the problem.  If they could learn in a more whole way the problems would be minimized or would be gone completely.

If children were Mars creatures from outer space, we would teach them what a human being is like by shown an eye, then a toe, then a finger, then a face and a foot, then the body.  The "learninng disabled" do best when they see the body, then the head on the body, then the eyes in the head.  They are often curious and self-directed, so being led blindly in senseless illogical ways does not suit them.

Some peole with ADD have an actual chemical and physical imbalance.  Others are simply over-sensitive and overly receptive.  The North American school system was heavily influenced by Sesame Street, which was originally conceived for slum children left in front of the television while their parents went off to work - stimulus-deprived.  The program sought to stimulate, and this philosophy of stimulus and entertainment found its way into the classroom.  Loud colors, stimulating books, active, constant interruption of one activity into the other (oops, I think I'm slipping into John Holt) - It is reminiscent of modern television with short info-bursts of bits of information designed to kill the attention span.  An intelligent, deep-thinking, sensitive and aware individual becomes over-stimulated and agitated at the constant distraction, and there you have at least some of your ADD.

The Waldorf schools, by contrast, had muted colors, depth, and a calming effect.  For some reason the rows of trees, opening flowers, and falling apples have the same effect on me.  Despite the fact that the program speeds up and speeds up, placing higher demands, it is not frenetic.  I still dislike computers and computer games in general, but that is a problem of the medium and not the design.

[pianochick93]

Musicrebel4u, I don't think you are getting me. I have explained my views to the extent of what I am able to do though, so I will let you have your opinion, and I will keep mine.

[keypeg]

Musicrebel4u, I don't think you are getting me. I have explained my views to the extent of what I am able to do though,

Pianochick, I have looked at what you wrote before to see if I get it.  Are you saying that the ability to read music is due to talent?