Perfect pitch - composers

[soderlund]

I was only wondering about this, how many of the famous composers had perfect pitch? Or rather, which ones didn't?

Mozart of course, had a disgustingly perfect pitch. I have also read that Liszt had it. Saint-Saëns definitely did. I think Rachmaninov as well, but not sure about that. What about Beethoven, Bach, Chopin, Debussy, Ravel? And so on...

[ryguillian]

Seven.

[thierry13]

I was only wondering about this, how many of the famous composers had perfect pitch? Or rather, which ones didn't?

Mozart of course, had a disgustingly perfect pitch. I have also read that Liszt had it. Saint-Saëns definitely did. I think Rachmaninov as well, but not sure about that. What about Beethoven, Bach, Chopin, Debussy, Ravel? And so on...

I don't think Liszt saint-saens and rachmaninoff had it ... I'm even pretty sure that of those you named, only mozart had it.

[ryguillian]

I don't think Liszt saint-saens and rachmaninoff had it ... I'm even pretty sure that of those you named, only mozart had it.

Ha! You don't think Bach and Beethoven had perfect pitch? Beethoven especially had absolute pitch...

Marc-André Hamelin has perfect pitch... Scriabin did... Leonard Bernstein... Alistair Hinton... some others...

Best,

[soderlund]

Well, I am unsure about Liszt and Rachmaninov, but I am confident about Saint-Saëns. I would be surprised if Bach and Beethoven didn't have it, but you can never know, that's why I made this thread. 

[jabbz]

Beethoven definately had absolute pitch. Bach DID have Perfect pitch, as WTC1 was composed at a time when he did not have access to an instrument. I'd say all of the great composers would have at the very least, relative pitch.

I think probably most of the Baroque masters had very good pitching, as they needed it really more than anyone.

[mike_lang]

I had the impression that many of the most successful pianists and violinists, as well as composers, have perfect pitch... is it an inaccurate presumption?

[thierry13]

I had the impression that many of the most successful pianists and violinists, as well as composers, have perfect pitch... is it an inaccurate presumption?

Yes. And why the hell would bach need an instrument to compose that? Musicians at the time were much better than most of our time. There is no evidence that Bach nor Beethoven had perfect pitch. I don't think Beethoven had it. Did you see all what he wrote without even hearing ANYTHING? He clearly had relative pitch. Relative pitch is even better in most cases, when it is well developed.

[jlh]

Yes. And why the hell would bach need an instrument to compose that? Musicians at the time were much better than most of our time.

I don't know about that.  Certainly they were more accomplished in their period music, because that was all they had to study.  They weren't forced to unlearn everything in pursuit of atonality.

There is no evidence that Bach nor Beethoven had perfect pitch. I don't think Beethoven had it. Did you see all what he wrote without even hearing ANYTHING? He clearly had relative pitch. Relative pitch is even better in most cases, when it is well developed.

You're making a case for Beethoven having perfect pitch and calling it relative pitch here.  haha    When you don't hear a reference note and can still determine a pitch that is perfect pitch.  Beethoven is known among other things for hearing entire symphonies - not yet composed -  in his head while taking his morning stroll.  This quality in a composer must have it's roots in perfect pitch.  I have perfect pitch and still cannot compose symphonies solely in my head.

[popdog]

I had the impression that many of the most successful pianists and violinists, as well as composers, have perfect pitch... is it an inaccurate presumption?

I would speculate that nearly all of the 'great composers' (whoever they may be) had perfect pitch of some description.  If someone researched a number of composers I would suspect that many would have perfect pitch.  At the least I imagine they would have highly developed relative pitch. 

I don't think perfect pitch is actually that hard to obtain - there are various musical education specialists who have developed ways of teaching this (can't remember the main one), dispelling the myth that you must be born with it.  I think they use a fixed 'do' on C as the basis for this.  I am by no means an exceptional pianist or musician and I have been on the borderline of perfect pitch for a long time.  For instance when I listen to a certain piece of music a lot, I can start singing it in pitch at any time.  This can be used as a basis for identifying any other note.  I have also experienced mild synaesthesia on odd occasions. 

Back to my point - think about how much these composers dealt with music.  Apart from the extensive amounts of time they spent listening/playing/composing music, they would have thought about music extensively.  I imagine that a composers mind would never have been far away from a theme they recently realised, working through developments of motives etc.   I read a description of a composer (think it was Beethoven) who was taking a walk in a forest and quite suddenly realised a theme.  This demonstrates what I mean.  These guys live and breathe music in the same way, for example, an artist does. 

theirry13, I don't see any reason to doubt that Back or Beethoven would have had perfect pitch.  In fact I would have thought that Beethoven's deafness would have suggested that he  did have perfect pitch.  I'm no expect in his matter though. 

popdog.

[jlh]

My hypothesis is that many of the great composers who had incredible amounts of music composed had perfect pitch.  I wonder if they didn't have perfect pitch would they have been able to compose so much?  That would be incredibly taxing on the brain I think.

Now someone is going to prove me wrong and that's ok.  I also wonder (really, I don't know this) when the term "perfect pitch" came to be a clinical term, and how many musicians prior to that date had perfect pitch but didn't know or weren't recognised for this because it was not a recognized condition?

[bob3.1415926]

There is no evidence that Bach nor Beethoven had perfect pitch.

Oh really? I assuming this is a well researched statement, and based on a decent look at the available evidence.

Lately I've been reading Harold C. Schonberg's The Lives of the Great Composers (3rd ed.). (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_C._Schonberg for info about the author). In his chapter on Beethoven, he writes (pg 114)

"Beethoven had absolute pitch, the ability to hear any note or combination of notes and instantly name them; or, on the opposite side, the ability to sing correctly any note without the artificial aid of a piano or tuning fork."

Later on the page he says

"Thus Beethoven with his incredible musical mind, would have no trouble, no more than Bach or Mozart had, writing music guided only by the sounds in his inner ear."

In the back of this book, there are 19 pages worth of references to other books and documents which the author had read as research before he put pen to paper.
I'm wondering how come his discoveries contrast so sharply to yours? You seem adamant that you know what you're talking about.

[counterpoint]

What's all this hype about "perfect pitch"  good for?

As a composer you need to be able to create and hear chords, melodies, rhythms with your inner ear. You don't need perfect pitch.

As a singer who sings difficult atonal ensemble works, you need perfect pitch.

[richard black]

Most musicians have perfect pitch. They just don't know how to use it. I spend a lot of my time working with singers and they usually pick the right note IF THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT. Most orchestral players know to an astonishing degree of accuracy where to tune their instrument to. A lot of pianists can play a chord on a piano and know whether it's a few cents sharp or flat or spot on. But for some reason mostly people can't access this in a direct way. Odd.

[schartmanovich]

What's all this hype about "perfect pitch"  good for?

As a composer you need to be able to create and hear chords, melodies, rhythms with your inner ear. You don't need perfect pitch.

I agree with this. I am a composer with absolute pitch and I don't find it to be helpful at all. Then again, I don't know what it's like to live without it.

[jlh]

Most musicians have perfect pitch. They just don't know how to use it. I spend a lot of my time working with singers and they usually pick the right note IF THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT. Most orchestral players know to an astonishing degree of accuracy where to tune their instrument to. A lot of pianists can play a chord on a piano and know whether it's a few cents sharp or flat or spot on. But for some reason mostly people can't access this in a direct way. Odd.

That's probably the problem with adults trying to learn pitches... they think too much and block the natural ability they possess.