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Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka (Read 7227 times)

Offline mkaykov

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Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
« on: March 18, 2008, 10:00:46 PM »
Many thanks for the responses! I will post an updated version of the Liszt Mephisto Waltz (recorded professionally) in a few weeks.

Cheers! :)

Piano Street's Digital Sheet Music Library

Tchaikovsky: Dumka, opus 59
piano sheet music of Dumka


Piano Street's Digital Sheet Music Library

Liszt: Mephisto Waltz no 1
piano sheet music of Mephisto Waltz no 1


Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 09:02:30 PM »
by the way, I can upload to a different file host, if anyone wants.

Offline thierry13

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 10:22:04 PM »
Why don't you upload it right here ...??

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 01:34:53 AM »
ok, I will repost it here.

Offline cherub_rocker1979

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 01:53:39 AM »
respect da Trumofo   8)

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 01:55:31 PM »
respect yourself :)

I hope this works for everyone now.

Offline rob47

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 04:11:45 PM »
just listened to Dumka and it was absolutely beautiful. Great job furiouspiano



"Phenomenon 1 is me"
-Alexis Weissenberg

Offline rachfan

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 03:54:24 AM »
Hi Mikhail,

I listened to Mephisto Waltz and enjoyed your playing tremendously.  You exhibit a wonderful technique, great expressiveness, and inspiration in this fine rendition.  I was particularly struck by the clarity of your playing in the long line and phrasing, voicing, and pedaling.  In a word, excellent!

I'm curious as to what piano you used for the recording.

Please post more!

Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 01:57:37 AM »
I used a Yamaha C3 piano, the microphone was placed under the lid, so it sounds like I am playing in a large metal tank. Too much articulation - makes it seem like there is no legato at all. Next time, I will open the lid, and use the good Samson CO2 Condenser microphones.

Offline rachfan

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #9 on: March 23, 2008, 04:15:43 AM »
Hi Mikhail,

Yamaha was my first bet, but I was also thinking Bechstein, so didn't offer up the Yamaha theory, as I only bet on a sure thing.   :)

Recording suggestions:

Close-in recording methods are good for jazz and pops, as those styles benefit from the percussive sound of hammers hitting strings.  But not so for classical recordings, as you have correctly concluded.  It's preferable to set the mics (small diaphragm condensers with omni-directional capsules are best) back from the open lid of the piano.  For a room recording you need to spend some time patiently experimenting to determine the optimal placement distance.  A good starting point is 5.5 to 6 feet away.  (My living room and the robust sound of the Baldwin Model L require a distance of 8 feet.)  Again, experimentation is everything.  If you get closer in than 6 feet or so, the music exiting the piano is still forming, but is not fully formed.  You in fact want a fully rich and blended sound.  When you hear it on the out take, you'll know.  Mark the spot somehow so you don't need to remeasure it when you next record.

Once you have resolved the distance, the two mics need to be elevated on stands about 5 feet, must be exactly parallel to one another, and separated by only 12 inches--no more, ever.  This is true A-B recording configuration.  Incline the mics slightly upward pointing toward the high point of the open piano lid.  Depending on distance from the piano, this will likely be somewhere between 10 to 20 degrees of angle. 

For classical recording, ignore well-meaning advice to use XY "coincident pair" configuration--two crossed mics at a 90 degree angle to one another (one over the other and nearly touching) with cartioid (directional) capsules.  If you've ever seen the portable Zoom H4, that is a miniaturized example of XY using built-in cartioid crossed mics.  (The H4 does have XLR jacks for external mic use; but for home recordings there are better options.)  XY is a close-in technique most suited for jazz and pops.  You cannot get much farther back from a parlor grand piano than three feet with XY--which is insufficient for capturing fully-formed sound.  Moreover, if too far out, the left mic points past the tail of the piano and the right points past the keyboard (unless you have a 9 foot piano in your living room!).  If you sight along the edge of the mics, you'll see this problem immediately.  It's an inherent physical limitation of XY.  Plus cartioid capsules (compulsory with XY mics) sound cramped, pinched and dry the farther you take them away from the sound source, whereas omni-directionals sound lush out there.   

If interested, you could listen to my Bortkiewicz Prelude Op. 33, No. 8 in D flat on this page.  It was recorded digitally using traditional A-B configuration as described above.  (Pay no attention to the playing.)  For a comparison of A-B, but too close in, 1 foot away from the piano's curve to be exact, using cardioid capsules and good quality analog equipment, go to Page 2 (it's about to slide onto Page 3) of Audition Room here and listen to my Bortkiewicz Prelude Op. 33, No. 7 in F#.  You can then judge for yourself the benefit of placing the mics further back from the piano. 

I hope this helps.

David
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #10 on: March 23, 2008, 11:47:55 PM »
Hello Rachfan,

I have a pair of Samson CO2 condenser microphones with a cardioid pickup pattern, and a Shure SM57 Cardioid Dynamic Microphone. I haven't used these in a recording before, I just placed a Sony MD mic under the lid, heh. But I will try to set these up using your technique, the next time that I record - probably the Chopin Ballade No. 1 and Etude Op. 10/2 and 25/11, that I will do at the end of the summer.

My biggest problem is getting rid of that ridiculous articulation - Yamaha is a very bright instrument, and in a small room  recording, it sounds rather unpleasant.

I left a comment under your wonderful recording Bortkiewicz, Prelude, by the way. You seem to know a great deal about microphone placement techniques; thank you very much for your help and feedback.

Offline rachfan

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 01:16:19 AM »
Hi Mikhail,

On my knowledge of recording methods, I have to credit "marik", one of the other members here (and an incredible pianist) with giving me a crash course when I was evaluating digital recorders.  He happened to listen to a couple of my past recordings and  noticed immediately that I had been using a close-in method.  That, in turn, led me to do a lot of reading on the subject on my own.

I hear you on the Yamaha C3 mechanical sounds when recording.  One thing I like about Yamaha, having tried the C5 a few times, is the extraordinary evenness of its action.  I also like the feel of the key tops--they more approximate the feel of ivory than the other plastic keys you encounter today.  But yes, those pianos seem to start off bright when brand new, so only get brighter over time.  I think your solution, through experimentation on mic placement, will definitely be to move your mics farther away in front of the piano to leave the percussion zone.  (Do your measurements from the front leg of the piano, not the curve.)  As I say, in my living room it took a distance of 8 feet to get blended music without percussive effects.  Start at 5.5. feet moving outward, do short test recordings of the same piece of music for best comparison, and you'll surely find what distance will best work for you.

Very often mics are sold with interchangeable capsules.  So if you now have Samson CO2 cardioid capsules, and if you go back to the source where you bought them, I would bet you can likewise get a pair of omni-directional capsules sold separately from the mics themselves.  All you need is those capsules.  In fact, you could even take a quick look on Ebay to see if any are for sale there at a bargain.  Once again, when you start moving the mics away from the piano, it'll reach a point where the cardioids can't work effectively--just too far away from the sound source.  They're only good for close-in due to their inherent design.

Glad you enjoyed the Prelude No. 7.  But don't forget to listen to No. 8 here on Page 1.  That's the more important recording, because the set-up was done properly, whereas No. 7 was done close-in, which was the improper choice.

Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 08:06:33 PM »
Hello rachfan,

I've just learned that the Samson CO2 mics only don not have interchangeable capsules, all they have is cardioid.  Perhaps I should place them even further back......

What do you think of the Shure SM57 - maybe I should use this mic along with a random background mic.......

Offline rachfan

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 09:46:43 PM »
Hi,

No, I would not advise putting the cardiods out at 6 or 7 feet from the piano.  Cardioids are designed strictly to be directional only, which is why they're suited for close-in recording only, like 1 foot away from the piano, inside the lid of the piano on booms, or similar.  Once you move those way farther out, the sound will become brittle, dry, and pinched.  I guarantee you'll hate it.  At say 7 feet away, the music has dispersed itself into the room.  The only way to effectively capture it out there is with omni-direction mics, which, as you heard in my recording, will render a lush sound.

Using one mic along with a farther away background mic will also sound poor and too spacious.  What you're after is true stereo sound in A-B configuration.  So you need a matched pair at best (or as second best, two identical brand/model mics with separated serial numbers rather one digit apart.  They must be placed absolutely next to and parallel to one another, separated by exactly 12 inches, no more, and pointed at the piano.  That's how a stereo recording is done. 

The Shure SM57, although quite inexpensive, is best noted for  recording drums and guitar, not piano.  I had suggested in the other thread that you check out the Rode NT5 or Studio Project C4.  But those appear to be outside of your budget.  So here's what I'd do next.  Call Sweetwater toll-free at 1-800-222-4700.  (That's were I bought the Korg unit, and found them very helpful.)  Tell them your budget and that you'd like a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics with omni-directional capsules for home recording.  They stock multiple lines of mics and will be able to make a recommendation based on your criteria and dollar limits, I'm sure.  Try that--nothing to lose!
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 10:25:16 PM »
Thank you so much rachfan,

I will definitely purchase this type of microphones some time in the near future, I'll have my father look for a good deal on them. We had huge problems with the current ones that we have, the sound was indeed brittle, and there was little variation in dynamics.

Perhaps my next recording will turn out good. I will post the results in a few months.

Anyway,

Best Wishes

-Mikhail

Offline rachfan

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #15 on: March 25, 2008, 12:18:41 AM »
Hi Mikhail,

Your last recording was outstanding in terms of musicianship.  If you follow up on improving your recording method, that will further enhance your renditions.  Your Yamaha will sound more legato.  I'm looking forward to your next recording!  Good luck on that.
Interpreting music means exploring the promise of the potential of possibilities.

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #16 on: March 25, 2008, 02:03:33 AM »
thank you for your kind and helpful response, I appreciate it.


Offline michel dvorsky

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 02:27:28 AM »
Wikid Mephisto, Trumofo.

- Subwoofah

 8)
"Sokolov did a SH***Y job of playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto." - Perfect_Pitch

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #18 on: March 26, 2008, 02:29:00 PM »
thanks man,

that "devils trills" section is the most difficult thing for me in that piece. I am not entirely satisfied with the way I played in this recording, but I will do a live recording of this in April.

Perhaps someone can tell me the specific things that I should improve?

Best,

Mikhail

Offline m

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #19 on: April 05, 2008, 08:17:25 AM »
I enjoyed very much both Dumka and Mephisto. There is great sensitivity, professionalism, and quality in your playing--something I always like and greatly respect.

Где и у кого вы учитесь? Если нужна помощь, я знаю некоторых влиятельных музыкантов и педагогов. Обращайтесь, если хотите.

Best, M

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 02:20:07 PM »
I haven't studied with anyone yet, but I will study with Mr. Jerome Rose when I start Mannes College (NYC) in late August.

My mother is a pianist - she shows me everything.

Offline cherub_rocker1979

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 10:37:45 PM »
Congratulations on getting into Mannes.  I've heard Mr. Rose is a great teacher.

Offline welltemperedpianist

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #22 on: April 09, 2008, 02:12:39 AM »
Good job! Though I cant say much because I'm not familiar with the pieces, the Tchaikovsky piece truly was excellent to hear.

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 05:57:14 PM »
I am happy that you've liked it. Now, I am working on Chopin Ballade No. 1 and Scherzo No. 4. Hopefully I will record them this summer, in good sound.

Offline remy

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 06:35:04 PM »
Mikhail,

That's absolutely brilliant playing.

Have you heard Janina Fialkowska's recording of Mephisto Waltz?

It's a really gorgeous interpretation.



remy

Offline mkaykov

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #25 on: April 11, 2008, 01:47:57 PM »
I haven't heard it yet, but one of my favorite versions is Ashkenazy - not the Melodya release but the unreleased 1969 Carnegie Hall version. That is really unbelievable.

Also, Horowitz plays the tender sections magically.

My favorite version of all time are:

Kapell
Askenazy
Richter
Feinberg

Offline Bob

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Re: Liszt Mephisto and Tchaikovsky Dumka
«Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 11:35:27 PM »
I like the Mephisto.  Impressive.

I like the way the chords roll off.  That water effect.

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."