How many music teachers in this forum have another job?

[musicrebel4u]

Recently I had joined a blog, where I could meet my former classmates. When I graduated a music college in 1980 and conservatory in 1986 we didn't have Internet. Even though some bonds were pretty strong, I lost a lot of my dear friends and was missing them greatly.

Now I found almost all of them. They were great musicians: pianists, who could play by sight with no rehearsal for radio and TV stations, musicologists, professors of theory, harmony, counterpoint, music history, composers.

But I was shocked to find out that most of my classmates are not pursuing music career any longer or if they teach, they do it at their 'spare time' after another job. I was amazed to find out that some great musicians are working as real estate agents, some opened different stores, some get places in city halls, some received another education.

It really bothers me that such high profile professionals are doing everything, but teaching music or performing it.

When I go to symphony concerts or opera, the performance usually starts with speech: please, donate. Couple of days ago a lady speaker even said that what we paid for the ticket is just 1/3 of real price.

I think, this is some sign of disaster in music education's field. What do you think? Do you have to keep another job to make the ends meet? 

[m19834]

This happens in every profession, not just with music.  I don't think it claims any crisis about the profession itself, it's just human nature.  Some people want other things than what they were trained to "be," and that is their every right.

If the goal in teaching is to have people musically literate, what does it matter whether or not they get paid for it at some point ?  Many people are remarkable readers, writers and speakers of languages, but they aren't necessarily drawn to public speaking, writing books or teaching people how to do these things.  I guess that's just how it is !

[musicrebel4u]

This happens in every profession, not just with music.  I don't think it claims any crisis about the profession itself, it's just human nature.  Some people want other things than what they were trained to "be," and that is their every right.

If the goal in teaching is to have people musically literate, what does it matter whether or not they get paid for it at some point ?  Many people are remarkable readers, writers and speakers of languages, but they aren't necessarily drawn to public speaking, writing books or teaching people how to do these things.  I guess that's just how it is !

Well, after all these conversations with my friends I got a different impression: they all regret that they have to do something else and saying that they had to switch the profession just because it doesn't pay enough to survive and build family.

[m19834]

I do find it very unfortunate when people are feeling trapped in something they don't want to be doing, or when they feel they cannot do what they actually wanted.  I have personally made decision after decision after decision along these lines of what the right steps for me are in my own path (and will for many years), and I am convinced that if I can have this career, so can these types of people whom you have described. 

However, a big part of me is convinced that it is a matter of priorities.  Sometimes people just make wrong choices (wrong for themselves) based on other priorities at the time, and don't realize this until later.  Sometimes people don't realize until later just how important music is to them. 

At this point I have personally decided not to have kids (for example), not directly because of financial reasons as it relates to the profession, but because it would dramatically change my life in a way that I feel my music-life would ultimately suffer.  At this point in time, I still have a choice about it all and I will for a number of years, but I have definitely put my musical desires as number one in my life.  I don't necessarily see this changing for me in the years to come.  I have definitely had to weigh many things in the process of carving out my path though, and decisions have often not come easily for me.  Also, whatever it is that people want, those desires (and all that comes with it) really have to be cherished and protected.

[musicrebel4u]

I do find it very unfortunate when people are feeling trapped in something they don't want to be doing, or when they feel they cannot do what they actually wanted.  I have personally made decision after decision after decision along these lines of what the right steps for me are in my own path (and will for many years), and I am convinced that if I can have this career, so can these types of people whom you have described. 

However, a big part of me is convinced that it is a matter of priorities.  Sometimes people just make wrong choices (wrong for themselves) based on other priorities at the time, and don't realize this until later.  Sometimes people don't realize until later just how important music is to them. 

At this point I have personally decided not to have kids (for example), not directly because of financial reasons as it relates to the profession, but because it would dramatically change my life in a way that I feel my music-life would ultimately suffer.  At this point in time, I still have a choice about it all and I will for a number of years, but I have definitely put my musical desires as number one in my life.  I don't necessarily see this changing for me in the years to come.  I have definitely had to weigh many things in the process of carving out my path though, and decisions have often not come easily for me.  Also, whatever it is that people want, those desires (and all that comes with it) really have to be cherished and protected.

Of cause, it has to be cherished and protected!
But for some reason it is not!
Piano, violin, flute (you name it!) teachers have to be self employed, making average $18,000 - $25,000 per year (it is not my number, but statistics), having no health coverage and being completely depended from clients like waiters in restaurant?
They work today in a world where playing piano is not cool enough, drop out rate is pretty high, no or little support of musically illiterate parents.
It is the Sisyphus labor!

[m19834]

teachers have to be self employed, making average $18,000 - $25,000 per year (it is not my number, but statistics)

Where are the statistics from, exactly ?  Anyway, I think we both know that artists can be very "creative" tax-filers  .

(And just for the record, I have chosen to be self-employed and I very much enjoy it !)

having no health coverage and being completely depended from clients like waiters in restaurant?
They work today in a world where playing piano is not cool enough, drop out rate is pretty high, no or little support of musically illiterate parents.
It is the Sisyphus labor!

What about dancers ?  How about photographers and ceramicists and painters ?  How about writers and actors ?  What about wood-turners and jewelry-makers and most "little guy" entrepreneurs of the world ?  It is just all so sad  ...

But surely, 4u, there is not all of this lead-up for nothing.  Surely, you have an answer ?

[musicrebel4u]

Where are the statistics from, exactly ?  Anyway, I think we both know that artists can be very "creative" tax-filers  .

(And just for the record, I have chosen to be self-employed and I very much enjoy it !)

What about dancers ?  How about photographers and ceramicists and painters ?  How about writers and actors ?  What about wood-turners and jewelry-makers and most "little guy" entrepreneurs of the world ?  It is just all so sad  ...

But surely, 4u, there is not all of this lead-up for nothing.  Surely, you have an answer ?

My answer is … a question. Is music only art or international language?

From Plato to modern scientists we are talking about the role of music language in development of people's brain, improving their quality of life, cognitive thinking, special perception. I didn't read that dance, or painting, or acting, or wood-turning, or jewelry-making suppose to be a child's first subject, before he/she starts other academic subjects, like Plato insisted.

And if the profession itself today is not in demand, if the best professionals are getting washed out from the field doing completely different things, if real music lessons (not lessons about music) are not as popular any more as they were just century ago, what is going to happen next century? 

[keypeg]

My answer is … a question. Is music only art or international language?

I'm a linguist.  My profession is both an art and a science, and given my personal bent I probably practise it artistically with expertise.  I am a self-employed enterpreneur and can identify with most of what you wrote.

If you want to see evidence of the frustrations of my colleagues, hop over to PW and click on the 'translation" of the piano manufacturer based in China that popped up last night.  They have hired a non-expert and paid him peanuts to produce such nonsense.  But at least translators don't deal with human lives and hopes.

What I meant to say that some of the same frustrations and struggles come into play when you are self-employed, have an area of expertise, but work for people who don't understand the profession, etc.

[Bob]

Pay definitely isn't there.  I would do more independent teaching if the pay was better.  I enjoy that a lot more and am probably better at it, but there's no financial security there.  It's nice to take care of all the details with an individual, and you can't do that to the same extent with a group.

Even after the "real job,"  I want my off time for myself.  Kind of an odd situation.  I want to do more private teaching, but I need time for myself.  Part of it is the decision of whether to practice myself or teach someone else.  If I'm not even practicing myself, it doesn't make so much sense to teach someone else.

I don't know exactly what kind of professional people the original poster is talking about.  People who have a non-music career and don't teach or perform, or people who do have a music-related career and don't teach or perform. 

I've heard the ticket price thing.  I get sick of them begging for money all time too.  I would like to support them, but then again -- I don't have a lot of extra money to throw around.  The ironic thing is that I think I'm an educated music listener but I'm more stingy about my money.  Seems hypocritical in a way.  Yet these groups continue to survive and perform somehow. 

I think there's plenty of room for improvement in music education.  But that's how it is too.  What are we really going to do about it?

[andric_s]

Teaching IS my second job   My first job is performing jazz and "world" music, and composing for my ensemble.  I don't make much money, but I'm used to that, and for the most part it's alright.

I feel like I would be making alot of money if I were teaching full-time, instead of performing so much (which doesn't pay well at all, at the moment-- though sometimes it does).  I have to cancel and reschedule so many lessons to accomodate performance, that it becomes difficult to require consistent attendance  by my students.  And since I perform every weekend, I take Mondays off from teaching, which leaves me only 4 teaching days.  On the other hand, it is likely that I wouldn't have so many students (and a waiting list) if it weren't for my performances.

I just turned 35.  I'm struggling a little financially, but I'm confident that it will improve as time goes by.

About the "disaster" you mentioned, musicrebel:
I think the trouble is not just in the music education field, but in the entire music profession.  And in America, the whole culture of listeners.  And not just in classical music, but in all live music.  CD sales are dominated by Big Business record lables that market terrible pop to the masses who think that Brittney Spears is real music.  Live music venues often remain empty, while just around the corner a DJ has people lined up outside waiting to get in. 

Everyone has CD players and iPods, and the musical experience is cheapened by the fact that we are constantly surrounded by it.  I spoke with a composer who doesn't listen to recorded music for this same reason.  When I spent time in Brazil learning their beautiful music, I was amazed:  most people couldn't afford CD players, so live music was valued highly by everyone.  EVERYONE sang and played music, not just "Musicians".

About the 1/3 price tickets:
I am not deeply connected to the classical music world in my professional life, but I believe it exists in a sort of bubble which is independent of the rest of the musical economy.  Classical music depends on the support of institutions and wealthy patrons.  Those 1/3 price tickets don't even come close to paying the salaries of the Symphony members and the production costs of the performance.  The musicians expect good pay, they demand it, and they deserve it.  But who can afford to regularly buy concert tickets that reflect the cost?  In America, at least, the institutional and government support continues to shrink, and any "Art" musician MUST ask for money, or they might not get any.


Despite my occasional cynicism, I am very thankful that my life revolves around music.  I am thankful to work for myself, and on my own terms.  I feel positive that new avenues of music busines are being created, and more will appear.  Like your software endeavours, for example... it's probably inevetable that future teachers will use more technology, and you are wise to innovate.  Got patents?

[dora96]

I am always wondering that whether or not teaching piano is secure or wise career. I stopped studying the music once I got my Grade 8. It properly was about 16 years ago. I was teaching when I was in Grade 6. It was quite easy to get job in  teaching piano in Hong Kong. piano company and studios are everywhere, there were very commercialized. The rooms are very small just enough room for a piano and a fold up chair. The wage is not much, but most teachers in there were part time, trying earn extra money for their spare time.  I taught  for 2 years and came to Australia.

 I thought I should get another skill on something else. I didn't want to teach in this environment forever. Now I am 38 with 4 kids. I went back studying my diploma since 15 months ago. I always love playing the piano, and since my kids are starting learning the piano, I want to set a good example to them. Mummy is not just talking practicing the piano, I play and practice lot in front of them. My daughter is in grade 2, she has a Russian piano teacher. I can't teach her because my busy duties at home and helping my husband  with his business sometimes.

I would like to teach and have my own students, but it is impossible to teach at home with all these kids plus my husband also works from home. Renting is expensive, teaching is also long term and commitment to people. I want to teach student with good  method and interest in playing piano and just milking them for money.

I find that M4U's computerized method is interesting. My daughter's teacher teaches from the music books, every time, the teacher told my daughter, she needs to pay attention to the tempo, the tone color, the mistakes etc... She  will remember properly 70 % during the lesson. Once she get home sitting at the piano 50 % maybe she will remember, 30% next day. At the end of the week, next lesson comes, she has no idea what is learning?
That's why I feel so frustrated I have to remind her and reinforce that what the teacher told her, if I don't have any music knowledge. God knows what happen to her piano lesson. I feel like I throw money in black hole. I am convinced that without visual aid and interesting program kids are hard to find motivation and interest to learn. I want the teacher to inspire her, but there is not a lot excitement by looking at the book with lots of lines and black dots. That's why teaching is hard with the traditional way. When I was in Hong Kong, the students are very motivated, I don't need to remind that please practice, don't forget to do your theory. They will basically sit down and study the notes at home.  In Australia, the kids are free and easy going attitude. I want to learn if I have inspiration, and fascination. Memorization is too hard. Not talking about kids, even for me to memorize the music score, it takes, effort, patient and persevering.

When I was kids, my teachers taught the kids how to memorize and meditate information, unfortunately, this generation, don't like me to use the words " Make" them do something. That's why the teaching from the old traditional method and this new innovative method come to conflict. Teaching is more extra work, the teachers have to think about annual concert, exam, audition etc.. 

[musicrebel4u]

I'm a linguist.  My profession is both an art and a science, and given my personal bent I probably practise it artistically with expertise.  I am a self-employed enterpreneur and can identify with most of what you wrote.

If you want to see evidence of the frustrations of my colleagues, hop over to PW and click on the 'translation" of the piano manufacturer based in China that popped up last night.  They have hired a non-expert and paid him peanuts to produce such nonsense.  But at least translators don't deal with human lives and hopes.

What I meant to say that some of the same frustrations and struggles come into play when you are self-employed, have an area of expertise, but work for people who don't understand the profession, etc.

Well, a man makes his king!

Today greatest musicians making times and times less money then rap-singers.

The saddest part is that many of them don't see a link between their snobbish and arrogant attitude towards mass music education (NOT education ABOUT music) and empty concert halls and opera theaters.

[musicrebel4u]

Pay definitely isn't there.  I would do more independent teaching if the pay was better.  I enjoy that a lot more and am probably better at it, but there's no financial security there.  It's nice to take care of all the details with an individual, and you can't do that to the same extent with a group.

Bob, read this -https://www.doremifasoft.com/pipupiupskus.html
You CAN take care of all the details in a group.

I don't know exactly what kind of professional people the original poster is talking about.  People who have a non-music career and don't teach or perform, or people who do have a music-related career and don't teach or perform. 

Both. Level of 'teachers drop out' is very high

I think there's plenty of room for improvement in music education.  But that's how it is too.  What are we really going to do about it?

I think, the best solution is to spread music literacy in public schools. Instead of singing songs, play recorders or drums or listening about theory all the kids have to learn how to read Grand Staff, sing Solfeggio, write music dictations THROUGH DIGITAL PIANOS AND/OR KEYBOARDS in public schools, pre-schools, day care centers and homes.

[musicrebel4u]

About the "disaster" you mentioned, musicrebel:
I think the trouble is not just in the music education field, but in the entire music profession.  And in America, the whole culture of listeners.  And not just in classical music, but in all live music.  CD sales are dominated by Big Business record lables that market terrible pop to the masses who think that Brittney Spears is real music.  Live music venues often remain empty, while just around the corner a DJ has people lined up outside waiting to get in. 

Everyone has CD players and iPods, and the musical experience is cheapened by the fact that we are constantly surrounded by it.  I spoke with a composer who doesn't listen to recorded music for this same reason.  When I spent time in Brazil learning their beautiful music, I was amazed:  most people couldn't afford CD players, so live music was valued highly by everyone.  EVERYONE sang and played music, not just "Musicians".

About the 1/3 price tickets:
I am not deeply connected to the classical music world in my professional life, but I believe it exists in a sort of bubble which is independent of the rest of the musical economy.  Classical music depends on the support of institutions and wealthy patrons.  Those 1/3 price tickets don't even come close to paying the salaries of the Symphony members and the production costs of the performance.  The musicians expect good pay, they demand it, and they deserve it.  But who can afford to regularly buy concert tickets that reflect the cost?  In America, at least, the institutional and government support continues to shrink, and any "Art" musician MUST ask for money, or they might not get any.


Despite my occasional cynicism, I am very thankful that my life revolves around music.  I am thankful to work for myself, and on my own terms.  I feel positive that new avenues of music busines are being created, and more will appear.  Like your software endeavours, for example... it's probably inevetable that future teachers will use more technology, and you are wise to innovate.  Got patents?

I just don't want to repeat myself:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,29070.0.html
Look for
Some ideas regarding social and historical preconditions of total musical ignorance

[Essyne]

I think, the best solution is to spread music literacy in public schools. Instead of singing songs, play recorders or drums or listening about theory all the kids have to learn how to read Grand Staff, sing Solfeggio, write music dictations THROUGH DIGITAL PIANOS AND/OR KEYBOARDS in public schools, pre-schools, day care centers and homes.

Do you think that that would deter students, though? I understand that it would attract MUSICIANS, but I'm not so sure how others would feel about it - - - I think it would make music a chore to the non-musicians instead of an appreciated art form . . . .

[keypeg]

c

[keypeg]

deleted

[Bob]

I'm not reading your site.  I just think in general whenever you deal with a group, you're stuck dealing with the main middle of the group over individual needs.  It's not the same as one-on-one, answering student concerns right away.  The student has to be more on the ball in a group or else they miss out.

Change is hard in schools, esp if there isn't any budget to buy things.  I just can't buy software.  It's going to go out of date soon. 

Music literacy is there.  You can't do that all the time though and performance skills do have a place.

Recorders and drums are cheap and they do teach music literacy if you do that with them. 

Teach dictation and note reading is there.  That's getting up to the sixth grade level in a very general music curriculum.  At that point, you start to wonder -- This kid is done with music after this year.  Do they really need to 'master' note naming on the bass clef?  Or would it be better for them to sing a song?

Pianos and keyboards are expensive.  Waaaaay beyond what I've ever had or will probably ever have.  Then how many kids can you squeeze onto one and should you really do that? 

Good luck getting the public schools to magically increase music literacy.  Everyone's already trying to do that from what I see.

And then...  Do we need more musicians?  Probably not.  Appreciation, yes.  But isn't there a glut of musicians out there?  No one's clamouring for a reform in music education so we can have more musicians.

It's sounds like you're thinking along the lines of an academy musicrebel (in addition to pushing your product).  Although I have heard of school systems that do do that.  But music education in the public schools is really just there to give kids a taste of music.  Just a taste.  If they go on, great.  If they don't, well at least they know something of music and are aware of it. 

There is a balance between what the student learns about in class and what skills that kid is going to take away.  I lean toward the skills side.  If they can sing halfway decently when they leave, great.  If they don't know what a bass clef is, oh well -- because they'll be able to join in singing later on, way on down their life.  Learning about the bass clef might take something away from that.

People in music ed are arguing about this.  But then you have to take into account this are just people who probably don't want to put effort into learning.  There is a "music is just for fun" mentality that affects things.  The skills/knowledge curriculum thinking will work for a certain type of student, but you need to have a very supportive schools system that can start pushing a demanding music skills curriculum on everyone.  Some of these kids are just learning how to read printed words and struggle with that all the time.  They don't have a grasp of math down.  Scary sometimes.  Adding on music might not be such a great idea in those cases.  And there are more than I ever imagined.

Privately someone could do something like that.  Then the students are volunteering to be there.

And there are music curriculi set up already for general music class.  Gordon, Freirband, etc.  The are out there.

[Essyne]

But music education in the public schools is really just there to give kids a taste of music.  Just a taste.  If they go on, great.  If they don't, well at least they know something of music and are aware of it. 

It's like the age-old debate regarding whether an English/Lit. teacher should teach 8th graders Shakespeare (even base-level high school classes) - - - Surely, some WILL comprehend it, but many will not. But at least they were exposed . . . .

At the same time, I think that music DOES need to play a bigger, more sophisticated role in public schools. Here in Texas, they are trying to pass laws to eliminate music programs all together - - - the "exposure" that I speak of obviously isn't working because Texas School Boards don't think that music is a priority. Furthermore, much of the technique, EVEN THEORY! learned is just. plain. wrong. I don't know how to reverse this phenomenon. . . it's appalling. 

[Bob]

I only wish there some kind of new thing, some kind of music... music software maybe?, that could solve all these problems at once?  That would be so great.  I'd run right out and buy it right away.

I have to go now.  Very busy.

(Bob continues stacking individual grains of sand, transferring them from one pile to the next.)

[pianochick93]

Good luck getting the public schools to magically increase music literacy.  Everyone's already trying to do that from what I see.

In South Australia a few months back, we had the minister for education trying to get music education more focussed on primary schools rather than secondary schools, to give kids a 'taste' of music, and a musical education.
There was a massive outcry, because they were planning to take the DECS funded teachers out of the high schools, and instead put fundings towards educating primary school teachers about how to teach music to children in a group situation.

Those students getting their musical education mostly from DECS teachers protested massively, because not all families can afford to pay for music education for 3 kids. The government was trying to solve this problem by focussing the education on primary schools, but what she failed to realise was that those students drawn towards music would find it, and high school is plenty of time to become good at an instrument. Also high school is a time where most musicians will decide whether they want to become serious and pursue music as a career, or just do it as a hobby.

Sorry that was a little off topic...

[musicrebel4u]

I find that M4U's computerized method is interesting.

Thank you, Dora!

My daughter's teacher teaches from the music books, every time, the teacher told my daughter, she needs to pay attention to the tempo, the tone color, the mistakes etc... She  will remember properly 70 % during the lesson. Once she get home sitting at the piano 50 % maybe she will remember, 30% next day. At the end of the week, next lesson comes, she has no idea what is learning?

I don't think, Mozart would become a great composer without constant interaction with his father available 24/7. Successful music learning – is a proportion between student's aptitude and 2 sorts of interactions:
 
1.   Interaction with someone who can correct mistakes alone the way.
2.   Interaction with written material (per se: music notes and piano keys) and abilities to self correct one's mistakes

There are certain didactic rules set by pedagogy:
1.   From concrete to abstract
2.   From practice to thinking
3.   From sensations to conclusions 

That's why I feel so frustrated I have to remind her and reinforce that what the teacher told her, if I don't have any music knowledge. God knows what happen to her piano lesson. I feel like I throw money in black hole 

You do! And result is unpredictable. I know many music teachers, whose children had developed intense hate toward music and piano. It happens, because

1.   Kid doesn't read music fluently, has problems with coordination etc and he has lack of interaction with written material. It leads to
2.   YOU being forced to compensate this obstacle as a 'mistake corrector'.

As less kid able to do first, as more intense you have to do the second. Add to it kid's inner psychological 'role' conflict: music teacher – is an authority in music , mommy – is mommy.

As a result – or no practice at home or tears and struggles.

[musicrebel4u]

Do you think that that would deter students, though? I understand that it would attract MUSICIANS, but I'm not so sure how others would feel about it - - - I think it would make music a chore to the non-musicians instead of an appreciated art form . . . .

Kids don't know, whether they are MUSICIANS, or artists, or mathematicians. They have to be exposed to everything and give them right to decide.

Learning music by making music through READING with both hands, through personal tactile experience develops music understanding the same way as driving a car develops understanding of the road. In order to learn a road the best place is – a driver sit. 

[musicrebel4u]

It's like the age-old debate regarding whether an English/Lit. teacher should teach 8th graders Shakespeare (even base-level high school classes) - - - Surely, some WILL comprehend it, but many will not. But at least they were exposed . . . .

You lost me here. Is Minuet in G of Petzold is 'shakespeare' for kids?
Let's not confuse 2 different things:
1.   Original music notation, which is hard for eye focus comprehension and coordination development's difficulties
2.   Content of musical piece.

Everybody in fact CAN play Minuet in G (and even 'Fur Eliese'!). Less people would enjoy playing Schnittke

At the same time, I think that music DOES need to play a bigger, more sophisticated role in public schools. Here in Texas, they are trying to pass laws to eliminate music programs all together - - - the "exposure" that I speak of obviously isn't working because Texas School Boards don't think that music is a priority. Furthermore, much of the technique, EVEN THEORY! learned is just. plain. wrong. I don't know how to reverse this phenomenon. . . it's appalling. 

Of cause they are trying to pass laws to eliminate music programs all together. The reason is: most of them in fact HAD music lessons in their schools, when they were kids and most of them learned NOTHING. They forgot all the theory, they can't play or read music – they are musically illiterate people. If you lose something, you cry, if you care. Yes, they had fun singing songs and beating drums. But now, as adults, they don't think that such fun worth taxpayer's money. And you know, they are absolutely right!

If we – music educators – would continue to raise one generation of musically illiterate people after another, music WILL be eliminated from public schools. 

[Essyne]

You do have a compelling argument, musicrebel, but I still think that exposure should be gradual. Of course you want children to learn something, but they have to ENJOY it to be open to the learning - otherwise it is strictly memorized and for a grade - That is where you get the memory loss and lack of music appreciation.

In order to learn a road the best place is – a driver sit.

Yes, but you wouldn't fly a plane without first completing ground school 

Music can be overwhelming at times - Better to take it slow so that it can truly be ABSORBED.

[musicrebel4u]

Better to take it slow so that it can truly be ABSORBED.

Can't agree more!!!
Did you watch this?

Does it make any sense to what you just stated?

[Bob]

I'm reminded of the different tracks I've seen for things.  Math for poets.  That type of thing.  It doesn't set them up for math much, but gives them as much math as a poet needs to know.  Seems like music is the same way in the public schools.  Music for laypeople.

[Essyne]

I agree, Bob - as for you, musicrebel - well, no, I didn't - it'll take me about 1.5 hours to load ANYTHING on youtube, so I'll take your word for it 

[musicrebel4u]

I'm reminded of the different tracks I've seen for things.  Math for poets.  That type of thing.  It doesn't set them up for math much, but gives them as much math as a poet needs to know.  Seems like music is the same way in the public schools.  Music for laypeople.

Great observation!
In fact, scientists found out that as more different senses involved in learning process – the deeper and more effective learning is:
https://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/20/11125

[Bob]

Thanks, but I doubt I'll get around to reading that.  I'm guessing we're just fodder for your project here.

I wish I done a solid music training program through elementary rather than some of the stuff I did.  To do music theory and aural training like I had to learn math?  I would be so far ahead now.  Instead it's this big, bad college class.  Theory I, Theory II, III, IV.  Big deal in the end really.  That's just an introduction.

I do see a big gap after the theory like that and something similar with the method books -- Then what?  I would like something, a little more of a bridge, between that the pure literature practice.  More guidance for higher level pieces.  Yes, a teacher, but they don't always give you everything you want and they're just a person so they get annoyed if you bother them with lots of questions or find holes in their understanding.

I think musicrebel is amusing.  And here's an article about ....    If you are selling your music software, I'm concerned about the computer part.  Computers can be frustrating and unreliable.  And in ten years, probably obsolete.  I'd hate to buy something not be able to use it after awhile or to be frustrated with computer qwirkiness.  I'd be much more up for something on paper and cds for the aural part.  Esp with music, I don't think I've seen one yet that has a reasonable grading system.  I haven't looked at many though maybe.  I remember several -- Smart Music, some aural training programs from college -- I know I've improved and learned something, gotten something out of the situation, and the machine is telling me I got a 10%?  Or it tallies up my trial and error attempts at things.  That type of grading I hated.  Mistakes are part of learning.  I'm going off on a tangent now.

I still love my programmed theory books.  Very friendly for learning.  Very reliable.


I'm wondering now -- Are we still talking about the original intent of the thread or is this spinning out into musicrebel's software for sale?  I'm thinking we're wandering around elements of the argument for the software here.  Do agree with this?... check out this information... Now do you agree?.. Yes?... Don't you want to buy the software then?... It's right here.

I'm not a front runner for testing out things.  I wait until other people recommend what's good and then try it out.

[musicrebel4u]

Thanks, but I doubt I'll get around to reading that.  I'm guessing we're just fodder for your project here.

I wish I done a solid music training program through elementary rather than some of the stuff I did.  To do music theory and aural training like I had to learn math?  I would be so far ahead now.  Instead it's this big, bad college class.  Theory I, Theory II, III, IV.  Big deal in the end really.  That's just an introduction.

I do see a big gap after the theory like that and something similar with the method books -- Then what?  I would like something, a little more of a bridge, between that the pure literature practice.  More guidance for higher level pieces.  Yes, a teacher, but they don't always give you everything you want and they're just a person so they get annoyed if you bother them with lots of questions or find holes in their understanding.

I think musicrebel is amusing.  And here's an article about ....    If you are selling your music software, I'm concerned about the computer part.  Computers can be frustrating and unreliable.  And in ten years, probably obsolete.  I'd hate to buy something not be able to use it after awhile or to be frustrated with computer qwirkiness.  I'd be much more up for something on paper and cds for the aural part.  Esp with music, I don't think I've seen one yet that has a reasonable grading system.  I haven't looked at many though maybe.  I remember several -- Smart Music, some aural training programs from college -- I know I've improved and learned something, gotten something out of the situation, and the machine is telling me I got a 10%?  Or it tallies up my trial and error attempts at things.  That type of grading I hated.  Mistakes are part of learning.  I'm going off on a tangent now.

I still love my programmed theory books.  Very friendly for learning.  Very reliable.


I'm wondering now -- Are we still talking about the original intent of the thread or is this spinning out into musicrebel's software for sale?  I'm thinking we're wandering around elements of the argument for the software here.  Do agree with this?... check out this information... Now do you agree?.. Yes?... Don't you want to buy the software then?... It's right here.

I'm not a front runner for testing out things.  I wait until other people recommend what's good and then try it out.

Dear Bob,

I am not surprised. MONEY rules this world.
There are so much BS going on supported by heavy advertisement. Really easy to confuse with something real.
Well, my system works and growing. Hope, you'll get it before you'll become too old.

But remember one thing: I am always here for you and other educators. It's hard to believe that miracle can be just here and someone who can change your life for better could talk to you on Internet.

My life is a miracle and all what I have I offer to you

[pianochick93]

There are so much BS going on supported by heavy advertisement. Really easy to confuse with something real.

ROFL

No comment...

[musicrebel4u]

ROFL

No comment...

I don't understand what ROFL means...
But I know as a fact that my education and achievements are my credentials

[Essyne]

What DOES rofl mean? (I don't know either. . . )

[andric_s]

rofl = Rolling On the Floor Laughing

Meaning:  It started as an interesting thread, then turned into an annoying advertisement, and finally became laughable.

[Essyne]

lol - i thought it was to that effect. . .

thanks,

 ~Ess~

[point of grace]

i work only 4 hours a day in the La Nacion argentinian newspaper.
i correct and check grammar in the adverts basically...
i love it, but i know that if i need more time to study piano i will drop it...
meanwhile its a good way to earn money and but a new piano