How has the modernization of instruments affected the repertoire ?

[m19834]

It has recently dawned on me that there are so many keyboard pieces written for instruments that were not capable of making many of the same sounds that the modern piano is capable of making.  Dynamic possibilities and extremes are greater nowadays, the ability to hold tones out is different and therefore the ability to have stacked harmonies is very different than it used to be, the character of the sound in general is very different than it used to be, and all of these differences have come around since even the days of Beethoven and Chopin, for example (not to mention Bach, Mozart, etc.).

Yet, so much of what we play as "classical" pianist on the modern instrument, so much of that is music composed by very intelligent and musically aware people who were composing for sounds of their day.  It dawns on me that this is a very significant detail !  What types of creative expressions would we know from those people had they had at their disposal an instrument of today ?  An instrument with a basic propensity for greater sounds and one that, frankly, will not break as easily !

I began to think about  Rachmaninov, a composer who seems to have exploited in many ways some of the characteristics of the modern piano.  Imagine, for a moment, many of Rachmaninov's pieces and Rachmaninov's hands on a harpsichord or even on a pianoforte such as Chopin's day -- doesn't it seem like a unsatisfying match ?

I began pondering the likes of this thread here, or rather the youtube that was posted by quantum within the thread :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,28896.msg332815.html#msg332815

Perhaps there is a rise in music like this because the instrument itself is being tested ?  The modern piano is just plain capable of more impressive crashing and tone-clusters.  Where as something like the harpsichord and even the pianoforte is more suitable for single lines and more subtle harmonic schemes.  This is significant, I think !

All of this is not particular to the piano, of course.  I began to ponder the symphony orchestra and its growth over the years.  I began to ponder the use of sound that people employ and ask for as they write, and I began to ponder how all of this goes so hand-in-hand together !

As composers, how much does our perceived sound capabilities and possibilities effect our sound-imagination and our inspiration to write particular musics ?

How much do these "eras" which we have classified different writings in, how much do they actually point to and reflect the instrumentation possibilities of the time ?

I know that it is common practice to perform Bach, for example, on a modern piano, but I wonder how fitting it actually is to the conception of the music ?  I am not saying whether it's  right or wrong to do so, I just find it interesting to ponder.  I know there are probably some kind of fitting analogies for all of this, but I really should be in bed at the moment instead of here on PS  !

[dnephi]

I wonder how the modernization has affected the repertoire. 

[m19834]

I wonder how the modernization has affected the repertoire. 

wow, you seem to have really captured the spirit of my entire post !  What a carefully thought out response, thanks ! .

[dnephi]

I'll give you a serious response later.  First of all, I just had to help your title.  I'll be back later.

[ahinton]

You raise several interesting points here although, as they all relate principally to the piano, I'll confine my remarks accordingly.

Whilst there are nowadays quite a few experimental design ideas being brought into play in the manufacture of new pianos (perhaps a rather surprising state of affairs in our heavily computerised age), piano design moved on by leaps and bounds between the birth of Chopin and the death of Liszt but comparatively little between then and recently. There is an argument that the great 19th century composers' demands on the piano may even have helped to inspire and encourage piano designers and manufacturers to improve the carrying power, sustaining power and stability and robustness of pianos; such a notion is not inconceivable, especially when one remembers that Chopin, Schumann, Liszt and Alkan were all born within about three years of one another and active simultaneously. The practice of performing music on the instruments of the time when it was written is, of course, a far more recent phenomenon and may be open to risks of misunderstanding if one cannot be certain of the condition of those instruments at that time or the extent to which every aspect of their sound production, action, etc. can be replicated exactly in our own time. The public concert only began to grow in Liszt's time and the practice of performing recitals in large spaces as distinct from smaller salons grew with it, creating its own need for instruments that would project better and farther.

To answer the question directly, it is obvious that composers have usually taken advantage of what's on offer at the time, so music written by Skryabin, Medtner and Rakhmaninov a hundred years ago will inevitably reflect the capabilities of the Steinways, Bösendorfers, etc. of their day whereas Chopin's would reflect the Érards, Pleyels, etc. on which he played. Personally, however, I am by no means convinced that Chopin's seminal Études Op. 10 were conceived only in terms of those instruments with which he was familiar; I am more inclined to believe that, at least in part, they may have been conceived for a future instrument of his imagination, although Chopin seems not to left evidence of having have clamoured for improvements in piano design. In the case of Alkan, the apparent incompatibility of the pianos of his day with the extremes of his writing are even more marked than in Chopin's case; chords in the piano's lowest octave (as also used by Beethoven in his late piano works) sound far clearer on modern instruments than they would have done at the time - and the thought of how any contemporary piano action could have withstood such passages as the extraordinary one in single notes alternating between the hands towards the close of the first movement of his solo Concerto is little less than frightening.

Recent experiments today include those by Borgato (www.borgato.it), Rubenstein (www.rubensteinpianos.com), Stuart & Sons (www.stuartandsons.com) and others that have variously explored the idea of four strings per note instead of three, greater string lengths, welded steel rather than cast iron plate, 8-octave register and so on; Rubenstein follows Bösendorfer's lead in producing an 8-octave instrument that must be one of the largest on the market, its maximum string length coming in at a whopping 3m and its shortest at 54mm. Other experiments have been conducted to find the optimum wood types for the various requirements (Baltic birch, Sitka spruce, Rock maple, etc.). One of the outcomes of all such work is that composers interested in writing piano music will become accustomed to what the modern piano can do, just as they always have done.

That said, your mention of Bach on the modern piano bring me to suggest that some of the music of the past might seem more amenable to performance on modern instruments than other music from the same era, Bach being particularly suited to it (in the right hands!)...

Best,

Alistair

[m19834]

Hi Alistair, I just want to thank you for a thoughtful and informative reply !  I actually had no idea that there were new types of instruments being built, though I suppose I should have guessed !

I guess I recall hearing about particular composers kind of imagining the sounds of the instruments that were to come... like their music foreshadowed it.  I have also heard that some people's music foreshadowed the eras to come, too, which I suppose are related.

Anyway, thanks !

[Bob]

Hasn't this already been answered?

And, didn't Mahler redo Beethoven symphonies along these lines?

[ahinton]

didn't Mahler redo Beethoven symphonies along these lines?

Schumann symphonies.

Best,

Alistair

[liszt1022]

I don't think what pieces are out being played in the world is affected by the tones or quality of the pianos of that generation, because there aren't really many pieces, if any, that are unplayable on modern pianos vs. 1800s pianos.

The opening of Liszt's original Grande Study no. 8 uses a way of writing that Leslie Howard calls "impossible" on modern pianos due to their resonance and says it's fitting for the older instruments - all the notes would blur. There are ways to compensate on modern instruments, though, like lots of pedal changes, or no pedal while holding down the notes longer.

I think Bach sounds better on pianos than harpsichords. I'd like to think most composers would enjoy hearing their pieces played on a modern piano (competently) even if some of them would go mad trying to play on them theirselves, with the heavy action and deep keys.

Francois-Rene Duchable re-wrote Liszt's transcription of Symphonie fantastique with the intent of balancing the sound better on a modern instrument (though he went way beyond - virtually retranscribing the entire work in the process, and it's phenomenal)

EDIT: Apparently I posted this 4 years ago:

You have no reason NOT to use any and all capabilities of a piano when performing Bach. It all depends what kind of sound you're going for.

Bach didn't write for modern piano, he wrote for harpsichord. If you want authentic sound, play it on a harpsichord. If you want modern piano sound, play it on a modern piano & don't be afraid to use the pedals.

The bottom line (to me) is that you're playing it on a different instrument, so play it like it's for that instrument.

[slobone]

When performing a pre-modern-piano piece, I think it's helpful to know what the composer had in mind with the original instrument, but I think it's a mistake to let that determine your playing style.

I used to think Glenn Gould used staccato so much when playing Bach because he was trying to imitate the sound of a harpsichord. Now I think he did it for a different reason, but I still don't like it (most of the time).

And in the Goldberg Variations, some of them (like #8) were explicitly written for a 2-manual harpsichord. So when you try to play them on a 1-manual piano, you're working a lot harder than Bach ever meant you to!

Similarly, a fortepiano just isn't as loud as a modern piano. So when Mozart or Haydn writes ff, you can really bang away. But if you try that on a modern piano, it will be way too loud. So says Malcolm Bilson anyway, although he's been criticized for his percussive style.