Can music be conceived, written and communicated in different tenses ?

[m19834]

Similarly to story writing -- can it be in first person, second person, third person ?  And if so, what would make it so ?

I think it can be and it is, but I am not sure why I think that and I am not sure how to tell if it is or not.


What do you think ?

[frigo]

If the question is if it CAN be, my answer is yes, but this kind of music can't be as beautifull, real and actually educational as we conceive... I think,

[Bob]

No.  No tense.  Always in the present.

[mattgreenecomposer]

Wow, I never thought about it like that!  Makes sense to me, when I listen to certain music and a story is told---huh why not?

[mike_lang]

No.  No tense.  Always in the present.

What about Scriabin 9th sonata?

[Bob]

What about it?  I don't know if I've heard it.  Not lately.

How would you make something sound in the past or future without just sound?  Don't you have to have language for that?

I would imagine you should be able to take any phrase and make it sound past or future then too. 

[mike_lang]

What about it?  I don't know if I've heard it.  Not lately.

How would you make something sound in the past or future without just sound?  Don't you have to have language for that?

I would imagine you should be able to take any phrase and make it sound past or future then too. 

I was just reminded by this thread of the very first direction which Scriabin gives in italics between the staves - "as if recounting a legend...".

[Bob]

I just can't think of what that would be in musical terms though.  I can see doing something like a question or statement in music, like language, but tense?  Even if they say "Play this like the past/future" it's still going to sound "now." 

I can see suggesting a time period.  Ancient times, the future, etc.  That works for sure.

[schartmanovich]

It's called character and dialogue.

[slobone]

Well -- not to be pedantic, but first person, third person, etc. aren't tenses -- they're persons!

But yes, that's an interesting idea. Certainly starting about with Beethoven, there was a switch from more "public" music, such as Mozart and Haydn wrote, to more "private" music. And continuing on with Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, etc.

And perhaps in the modern era there was a trend back to a more objective style. At least that's what Stravinsky was trying to do. And other composers like Poulenc.

Also, I've always felt that some pieces definitely tell a story, even when they're not program music. Chopin's Ballade #1 for example -- it starts in a melancholy mood, then there's a happy part, then they struggle and it looks like the happy part wins and even goes into a victory dance. But the melancholy part gets the last word... not too hard to make up a story to go with that one.

[lmpianist]

Not sure I fully understand the question, but here are some thoughts:

Brahms F minor sonata, 4th Mvt, a retrospective

Similarly, Replique in Schumann's Carnaval

Ball scene in Symphonie Fantastique is another flashback

Several passages in the Ring Cycle elude to past/future happenings through the use of evolving musical motifs, e.g. Erda's warning to Wotan in Das Rheingold, the Norn's scene in Gotterdammerung, etc

Less obvious examples could depend on your interpretation of the music.  For example, one could say that a certain Chopin ballade tells the story of a man reminiscing over a lost love, with certain passages representing happier times in his past, and other sections depicting his present suffering.  Obviously with opera and program pieces much of the interpretation is already done for us, and the tone of the music would change accordingly.  Maybe planning a transition between passages that depict different tenses would make it more obvious to the listener.  But then again it's a pretty abstract concept to grasp...



edit: I swear I didn't read slobone's reply before I wrote mine!!  lol

[lostinidlewonder]

Meaning of tense:

1.   a category of verbal inflection that serves chiefly to specify the time of the action or state expressed by the verb.

2.   a set of such categories or constructions in a particular language.

3.   the time, as past, present, or future, expressed by such a category.

4.   such categories or constructions, or their meanings collectively.

So, can music be conceived, written and communicated in the past, present and future? This is asking 6 things;
Can music be conceived in the past, present or future
Can music be written in the past, present or future
Can music be communicated in the past, present or future.

Before you can even answer this question what does it mean by conceived, written and communicated? Are you talking about the composer or the listener? See how confusing questions can get if they are not specifically directed.

[Bob]

Funny.

I'm thinking in terms of an instrumental sound.  Tense like... I play, I played, I have played, I will play.  I don't think you can take a melody or harmony or anything musicwise and change it's tense like that.  I suppose you could ask if a note could express I, you, me, them... that type of thing.

[Derek]

I think that is a subjective thing much like a programme associated with a piece of music. I think there is a glimmer of truth in that though. Think of a concerto, where you have a MAIN CHARACTER in the form of an instrument, and perhaps a couple of themes. That'd be like a story with a narrator.  Then take a solo piano piece that has a lot of detail in it that sounds introspective, that could be like someone's memoir.   I'm really terrible with attaching interesting ideas to my own music I'm afraid, it's all about the sound for me, but I'm glad to find ideas like yours to make me think outside the box =)

[goldentone]

Well, I think what may help to answer this question is if we can summon an example of a piece or movement that we believe is written in a particular tense.  And we can see if there are some rustling leaves of agreement.

If this is possible, then your question strikes me as very possibly having a significance larger than itself.

*Mulling*

[Essyne]

I think that it is simply an interpretation thing, as has already been mentioned. For example, the "melancholy sound" that was mentioned could insinuate longing for some, nolstalgic memories for others, and the list goes on. That's why you're "not sure how to tell if it is or not" K - - - It's not black and white.

I can see where Bob is coming from when he says that music is "always in the present" - But I'm kind of 'riding the fence' here and need to think about this some more - maybe like what goldentone said - - - an example?

Very thought-provoking.

[Bob]

Maybe someone could post a phrase.  Same phrase in all three tenses. ?



(Bob's baloney detectors are going off.  Twice.     .... Or he's just paranoid.   And speaking in third person again.)

[0range]

I am a duck. I was a duck. I will be a duck.

Does that work for you, Bob?

And for you existentialists... there is no duck.

Maybe someone could post a phrase.  Same phrase in all three tenses. ?



(Bob's baloney detectors are going off.  Twice.     .... Or he's just paranoid.   And speaking in third person again.)

[Bob]

There is no spoon.  Not duck.  Spoon.


I meant a music phrase.  I want to hear a phrase of music in past, present, and future.  All instrumental.  When I hear that, then I'll believe it.

[popdog]

I'm inclined to agree with Bob on this one.  It doesn't make sense to think of music in the past or future tenses.  I piece can have an associated story/feeling which may be related to the past or the future but this doesn't mean that it is in the past tense. 

popdog.

[frigo]

Also, I've always felt that some pieces definitely tell a story, even when they're not program music. Chopin's Ballade #1 for example -- it starts in a melancholy mood, then there's a happy part, then they struggle and it looks like the happy part wins and even goes into a victory dance. But the melancholy part gets the last word... not too hard to make up a story to go with that one.

I totally agree with you. I think all pieces tell a story. In Chopin’s pieces it’s not uncommon to the melancholy have the last word… And take for example Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata – it clearly tells a story, and it is to me clear that it is told in first person – I see the initial 9 compasses as a kind of “prelude”, as an introduction to his story… then, we enter in the true motive of the story, this suffering that he wants to tells us about, and the development of the motive is clearly to me a glance of a frighten despair… the moonlight has been well gathered with this story (not by Beethoven though), since the moon is a symbol of madness, but also always connected with love, and an incapability to love, and the suffer that  consequential takes us… it’s purely Beethoven…

[teresa_b]

I have just one question:  What would a piece be like if it were written in the future subjunctive?   

Teresa

[jaypiano]

A perfect example of writing in tenses is Charles Ives.   He often is dealing with what musicologists have designated the "memory factor": he'll be speeding along (let's say in something like the amazing "Concord Sonata"), and then suddenly an extraordinary accumulation of sounds (cluster), and in that resonance, a church hymn--memory of things past--is played.  Then, in the resonance of that last tonal gesture, he'll continue in the speed and dissonance.  Just one of endless examples to be given.
Another composer who deals with this is Mahler.  And of course, before both of them, Wagner, with his leitmotives.  But why not mention Beethoven and his "Les Adieux" Sonata, for example...And I think in his 32nd Sonata, Op. 111, the apocalypse, he quotes himself, earlier sonatas, and foresees the future.
I could go on and on.....thank heavens.....